Is it the gun and load or the shooter ?

[jetinteriorguy]

Give me a full sized pistol and if I’m in good shape practice wise I usually can unload any of my pistols into a four inch cluster as fast as I can pull the trigger at 7-10 yds. But, make it a small size CC pistol and my results are more similar to yours. I think the difference is the distance from the grip to the trigger changes the geometry for my hand size causing me to consistently shoot low and left. Group size remains consistent because I have good grip strength due to the type of work I do. My solution has been to put a small red dot sight on my Hellcat so I can center my group without changing my natural trigger grip and even though there is a significant learning curve getting used to the sight it’s working quite well. So in the end a change in equipment and lots of practice has helped me. I reload and have a lot of components on hand so it’s easy for me to shoot a couple hundred rounds a week to relearn using the red dot and after a month of this it’s becoming quite natural.

[Metal god]

Sorry guys this thread was the wrong one for my last couple posts . see here if you care

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...82#post6943582

[MarkCO]

First, it is grip strength. It has never been more apparent to me than in the past year or so. I was having trouble shooting both fast, and accurate. And I was getting more muzzle flip. I could still shoot small groups, but I needed split times in the 0.4 range or more. More than twice what I was a few years ago. That led me down the path of trying to figure it out and when I measured my grip strength, it was around 65 pounds. About 40 pounds less that it was. Well, I had severe spinal stenosis and my spinal column was pinched off by about 40%. The pain came as I was trying to manage my pistol shooting. Well, I had surgery and I am recovering. But I ended up with a lot of dead nerves and some necrosis. Having a high pain threshold is not good.

Anyway, I had always known about grip strength and I have several exercises to improve it. The average male peaks at about 100 ft-lbs in the mid 20s and falls off as age takes its toll. Women are about 30 pounds below a male. We did a survey of top level GMs (lots of things actually) grip strength. All were over 100, most were in the 110 to 120 ft-lbs range. They are gripping their pistols with 80 to 100 ft-lbs. When you grip, max strength, it slows down the speed of the trigger finger, and imparts movement to the rest of the hand (which drives the gun off target). With PT and exercise, I am again improving my grip strength, and the target shows it, as well as the timer.

The trick is to grip the pistol as hard as you can, while still maintaining the flexibility of the trigger finger.

Second, most top GMs are tuned in to their pistols. Their shoulders and elbows are not locked, but they absorb some recoil. Elbows out, so that the gun recoils in only one plane. They also push into the recoil some. This is muscle memory, training, tuning, and comes from 10s of thousands of rounds.

Third, tuned guns and ammo helps. Some powder/bullet combinations feel softer than others, even with the same power factor. You will find most top level competitors are using fast powders with heavy bullets for their competition load. Getting the explosion over with faster helps you recover sooner and give you an advantage from the inertia perspective.

I take a Hand Dynamometer to classes and measure people's grip strength. It helps me know how fast I can push them and it also helps me give them feedback on what they need to focus on, and grip strength improvement. I have a squeeze ball in my vehicle. It gets 10 pumps everytime I get in, both hands. I have a Gyroball for flexibility and the thumbs and a forearm trainer.

And yes, I have spoken about this with Jerry, and yes, Jerry has a mean handshake. Shooting a pistol is just alinging the sights and causing it to fire without messing up the sight picture. Anyone can do that. But to be fast, you have to have the grip strength. This is also why women, even with massive effort and practice, will never be faster than a male given the same amount of effort. They have a natural 30 pound deficit that can not be overcome.

[Metal god]

Grip strength sounds reasonable and when I give an honest look at what mine “may” be . I say may because it has never been measured. I’m sure with age and my experience in my job , meaning I don’t do “all” the heavy lifting like I used to . I do more pointing of what needs to be done now . So although strong I’m sure it’s not what it used to be even 5 years ago .

Thanks for that post mark , I’ll start working on my grip strength outside of work moving forward .

[44 AMP]

Are they really that good or is the equipment a substantial aspect of there abilities?

Equipment is ALWAYS a substantial part of the ability to use it.
Without equipment, you can't play the game at all. With the right equipment you can, and can compete. THEN skill and ability of the shooter takes over, and when the equipment is essentially matched across the board, the ability of the user becomes the deciding factor.

Look at the IROC race, where all the cars are as close to identical as we can make them. Driver skill is what wins, not the equipment in that event.

I know I shoot a 22lr target pistol substantially better then a off the shelf standard 9mm .

And, you should. If a .22 Target pistol isn't substantially more accurate than an off the shelf 9mm, there's something drastically WRONG with it, and it need to go back to the maker!!

[stinkeypete]

I used to shoot NRA Bullseye. Never good enough to win at the club level, but good enough to sometimes take second. I was well known for my excellent rapid fire scores in the rimfire portion.

I had a Baikal IZH-35M with an 1" Ultradot on top and a custom trigger job. That is a huge, heavy, long .22 pistol!

Every time I sat at the computer, I was squeezing handballs to improve my grip strength for centerfire pistol

The AMU has publications on proper stance. I followed that. When my muzzle dropped, it was right back on target.

More than a few friends wondered how I managed such blistering scores in the rapid fire when my scores were lower in the slow fire sections. Simple.. the rapid fire targets are bigger. I let my pals try my gun.

"Dang. This thing is like cheating."

Light load, heavy gun, low bore axis, excellent trigger.

Let 'er rip.

[jetinteriorguy]

Originally Posted by MarkCO

First, it is grip strength. It has never been more apparent to me than in the past year or so. I was having trouble shooting both fast, and accurate. And I was getting more muzzle flip. I could still shoot small groups, but I needed split times in the 0.4 range or more. More than twice what I was a few years ago. That led me down the path of trying to figure it out and when I measured my grip strength, it was around 65 pounds. About 40 pounds less that it was. Well, I had severe spinal stenosis and my spinal column was pinched off by about 40%. The pain came as I was trying to manage my pistol shooting. Well, I had surgery and I am recovering. But I ended up with a lot of dead nerves and some necrosis. Having a high pain threshold is not good.

Anyway, I had always known about grip strength and I have several exercises to improve it. The average male peaks at about 100 ft-lbs in the mid 20s and falls off as age takes its toll. Women are about 30 pounds below a male. We did a survey of top level GMs (lots of things actually) grip strength. All were over 100, most were in the 110 to 120 ft-lbs range. They are gripping their pistols with 80 to 100 ft-lbs. When you grip, max strength, it slows down the speed of the trigger finger, and imparts movement to the rest of the hand (which drives the gun off target). With PT and exercise, I am again improving my grip strength, and the target shows it, as well as the timer.

The trick is to grip the pistol as hard as you can, while still maintaining the flexibility of the trigger finger.

Second, most top GMs are tuned in to their pistols. Their shoulders and elbows are not locked, but they absorb some recoil. Elbows out, so that the gun recoils in only one plane. They also push into the recoil some. This is muscle memory, training, tuning, and comes from 10s of thousands of rounds.

Third, tuned guns and ammo helps. Some powder/bullet combinations feel softer than others, even with the same power factor. You will find most top level competitors are using fast powders with heavy bullets for their competition load. Getting the explosion over with faster helps you recover sooner and give you an advantage from the inertia perspective.

I take a Hand Dynamometer to classes and measure people's grip strength. It helps me know how fast I can push them and it also helps me give them feedback on what they need to focus on, and grip strength improvement. I have a squeeze ball in my vehicle. It gets 10 pumps everytime I get in, both hands. I have a Gyroball for flexibility and the thumbs and a forearm trainer.

And yes, I have spoken about this with Jerry, and yes, Jerry has a mean handshake. Shooting a pistol is just alinging the sights and causing it to fire without messing up the sight picture. Anyone can do that. But to be fast, you have to have the grip strength. This is also why women, even with massive effort and practice, will never be faster than a male given the same amount of effort. They have a natural 30 pound deficit that can not be overcome.

Very well put.

[Metal god]

So I bought a grip strength tester off Amazon. Tried it but it likely isn’t calibrated correctly. I’ve always known I have a strong grip but this thing says my grip is 158lbs . It has a chart and for my age , 110lbs would be considered strong . I need to figure out a way to check if this tester is accurate.

I will add I don’t even come close to gripping my gun that tight . So I grabbed one of my guns and did some simulated dry fires paying close attention to how hard I’m gripping the gun . I then tried to duplicate that grip/feel on the tester . That resulted in readings between 75 & 80lbs . That’s interesting because it feel’s pretty firm but next time I shoot I’ll grip it tighter .

[TunnelRat]

I think grip and forearm strength are certainly beneficial to accurate shooting, especially at speed. That said, you seem to be describing some pretty notable vision related challenges. For myself I can do my grip exercises every night, dry fire multiple times a week, but if I can’t see my sights and a consistent point on the target to aim at, then the benefits of that will be limited. Like you I see a front sight much clearer without my glasses. However, seeing as being able to identify my target and assess whether it’s a threat (from a defensive standpoint) is important, I keep the glasses on and again, it’s also easier to find a consistent point on the target with them. If you can’t keep a consistent point of aim then your group sizes will suffer.

Have you talked with your optometrist or ophthalmologist about that challenge? Sometimes you can tweak a prescription, or even come up with a version that works at the range if this is purely recreational for you.

[jetinteriorguy]

The key is gripping tight enough to maintain control on follow up shots but not so tight it affects your trigger pull. The biggest problem with that is this relationship will vary from gun to gun and if you shoot many different pistols in one session it usually takes a few rounds to get on track. For me I’ve found if I do a lot of shooting with multiple pistols it’s not a big deal, but I always save my carry pistol to shoot last, thinking this muscle memory will stick with me better when needed. At least, this is my personal experience, although I do have two exceptions, my CZ75 SA and my GP100, it seems I always just shoot them pretty good anytime any place.

[GE-Minigun]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

I think it was Rob Leatham, no longer recall for sure, but one of the top shooters, in an interview somewhere around two decades ago was asked, "how much do you shoot in practice in a year?"

He replied, "about 80,000..."

"80,000 rounds?"

"No, 80,000 DOLLARS of ammo"



When you practice like that, you get and stay good.

This right here...I used to average 10 to 12k per year in skeet and 5 stand and the scores showed it. Had rotator cuff surgery couple years back that knocked me out of shooting anything for 6 months, when I got back my scores had dropped an average of 10 birds. Shooting is a perishable skill and 97% or higher of shooters do not shoot enough to get an above average level.

[Sgt127]

Originally Posted by Mike38

If it was Jerry Miculek he was probably shooting a revolver. So yes, it is what I call "bunny fart" loads. Felt recoil is about the same as a .22LR. I'm currently working on something similar for my .38 Spcl revolver. A whole lot of fun to shoot, low recoil, and surprisingly accurate.

Hardly “bunny fart” loads.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W7W-5Q...AuNDQgbWFnbnVt

Six rounds. 1 second. Full house .44 Magnum.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k_i_8Elcdzc

Five rounds of .44 Magnum in an L Frame.

That gun doesn’t move. It’s like it’s in a Vice. Having met Jerry several times, his hands are huge. Literally wrapped his hand around my dainty little hand when we shook hands.

He is an anomaly.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Sgt127

That gun doesn’t move. It’s like it’s in a Vice.

What gun doesn't move? I must be watching a different video.

[Sgt127]

Granted. With full house .44 Mags, it does move. I watched a whole string of Jerry’s videos last night.

He does have recoil management under control. But, there is some muzzle flip.

[Metal god]

Not sure what video you all are talking about but my original video is here see 12:00min in for the 3 shots with close to zero recoil .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=ChSazF41q-s

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Metal god

Not sure what video you all are talking about

See the links in post 37.

[Metal god]

You added another because I already saw the 44mag vid and nobody can say there was no muzzle rise with those .

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Metal god

You added another because I already saw the 44mag vid and nobody can say there was no muzzle rise with those .

?????

I didn't add anything. I did not post the videos. If you have an issue, address Sgt127.

Sgt127 did say "That gun doesn’t move. It’s like it’s in a Vice. " I challenged that comment because it obviously does move.

[Sgt127]

And. I corrected it with the next post.

[Metal god]

No issues sorry didn’t look at who posted what , thought that you were referring me to your post . Regardless My point is the same , I saw that post when it only had one link . The forum does not alert you if someone edits there post so I could not have known there was new info being discussed and is why I reposted my original video .

Thanks for helping put me back in the loop of my thread haha .

[shafter]

Alot of it has to do with the ammo. A 9mm in a heavy gun is going to have much less muzzle rise than a polymer 45.

No matter the firearm there is going to be some muzzle rise. It's better to focus more on the sights settling back exactly where you need them to than to try and fight something that will happen anyway. That's where having a consistent grip and stance comes into play.

[Metal god]

Yep I need to shoot pistol a lot more . I just prepped 2k cases and will start loading 1k of those . I should have a handle on this inside of those thousand rounds . I will say when you prep that many cases including priming them . Its a shock to your inventory haha . It took my happy to have 9k spp to 7k in stock . Yes technically I still have 9k cus I’ve not shot the ones I loaded but 9 bricks to 7 bricks on the shelf is noticeable