cartridge advice double standards.

[buck460XVR]

I hunt deer with my handguns. I use a variety of platforms and calibers. When I talk about using my .357s I get blasted for using a caliber that's barely adequate and using it is inhumane. When I talk about using the .460 I get bashed because it's too much gun for a lowly deer and the only reason I need that much power, is because I must be compensating for being such a lousy shot. This from folks that don't know my skills, where I hunt or how I hunt. Most don't shoot a quarter as much handgun as I do. That's why I don't need to come here to get validation for what I use. I get my validation at the range and in the field.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by ZeroJunk

The latest coolness is using less powerful cartridges and talking about how such and such a small cartridge is perfectly adequate for whatever and the unenlightened masses are using too much.

In the meantime there is not much downside to using the biggest thing you can stand to shoot and hit what you are aiming at. You just won't be cool on internet forums.

Zero... buddy... come on... I think you're misrepresenting the argument.

In all my time on this forum, I've I don't recall anyone claiming that you SHOULDN'T use a larger or more powerful cartridge if you can handle it.

The argument has always been that most people can't handle it even when they think they can.

Of course, everyone thinks they're not "that guy" who can't handle recoil but MOST guys ARE "that guy".

I don't care if someone hunts deer with a .338Lapua if they can handle the recoil and still shoot well but MOST people can't.

It doesn't have to be a .338 either. I've seen guys (virtually every time I've seen a misfire) who've been shooting 12ga deer slugs longer than I've been alive that jump like they got electrocuted when the gun says "Click!" instead of "BOOM!".

When I consider that fact along with the fact that a 7mm Rem Mag, .30-06, .300Win Mag, etc, won't make any difference whatsoever on how fast a deer is dead nor turn a bad shot into a good one over a .243Win, 7mm-08, .25-06, 257Roberts, etc. I ask why most guys would use the former over the latter. Don't have to be deer either.

I'd rather have a guy shooting at an animal with a .243win that he's burned 4 barrels out of than with a .300WinMag that he shoots 6 times a year because he hates the damn thing but thinks he "needs" it to kill something.

If you (generic "you") can shoot a gun/cartridge very well, have at it. If you can't, pick something smaller. A double lung shot with a .243 beats a blown in half leg with a .300Win Mag, every day and twice on Sunday.

[ZeroJunk]

I must live on a different planet. Of course, everybody around here grew up shooting. A friends boy who has probably killed fifty deer because they are soy bean farmers and have a permit took about three shots to decide he didn't like a 7 Mag. Another friend hunted with a 7 Mag for years and I don't remember him ever losing one .

The line for most is 7 Mag and 30/06. I really don't discern any difference. But, when you get in to 300 Mags it takes more concentration and you have to pay more attention to your position. I know guys that use them and some simply will not.

But, this guy that keeps framming away with a 338 Lapua is more an internet caricature than any real person.

[Deja vu]

I get told all the time that my 357 magnum carbine is inadequate for the mule deer we have here. I think it has much more to do with shot placement than the power of the gun. Though I do try to load my hunting rounds hot (for a 357 magnum)

Id say a lot depends on how you shoot it. Where I shoot, many of my deer is from taken my back porch at ranges from 30-100 yards. I have a rest set up and I know with the rest I can hit with I aim at.

When hunting in the field (away from my house) I use a 45-70. Long shots are not really possible in Heavily forested areas.

I probably shoot my 357 magnum carbine as much as I shoot all the rest of my guns combined. No other gun feels as right in my hands as that gun. I have killed every thing from tree rats to mule deer with that rifle.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by ZeroJunk

But, this guy that keeps framming away with a 338 Lapua is more an internet caricature than any real person.

The .338 is, quite obviously, an exaggeration to highlight a point. It doesn't have to be a .338.

I don't know what planet you're on, or maybe which one I'm on, but the number of people who THINK they can handle recoil is a lot higher than the number who actually CAN.

This guy hunts with that or that guy uses this doesn't really tell you anything. NY State (Southern Tier) was shotgun only for decades. Everybody used one. Naturally, the argument was that a 20ga isn't enough for deer and you need a 12ga. In all the years I hunted with a shotgun and all the guys I watched shoot, I don't recall a SINGLE incident where the gun misfired and the shooter didN'T flinch. No exaggeration. Every. Single. Time. Every. Single. Shooter.

At the same time, I've asked a whole bunch of guys if they flinch when they shoot a 12ga deer slug. Nope. Nobody does. Of course not. I watched 100% of them (who had misfires in my presence) flinch and I had 0% tell me they do flinch. Amazing.

So, what if the real number is 50%, 25%? That's still 1 in every 4 shooters who can't handle big recoil and who tell you they can.

Of course, since NOBODY is ever "that guy", I don't ever tell anybody that they are and I don't ever expect anyone to admit it openly. I concede that anyone who says they don't, doesn't.

What I hope for, though, is that all these guys who "of course I don't" flinch, will think about it when they get the chance and maybe find an excuse they can use when their hunting buddies pick on them for "downgrading" from a .300Win Mag to a .30-06, or from a .30-06 to a 7mm-08 or from a 7mm-08 to a .243. Whatever it takes to make them better shooters.

[ZeroJunk]

Well, if I shoot my Benelli with 3 1/2 buck shot and it doesn't fire I guarantee I will flinch. I also guarantee that if it doesn't misfire I am going to bust that deer's butt with it. I suspect I have flinched ever time I have shot a shotgun in my life except for perhaps a turkey shoot match.

[Hog Buster]

Peetza

I think the flinch rate may be much higher than you think. More like 70 to 80 percent. Add to that the trigger jerkers and the numbers may astound you. Jerking and flinching are the two hardest things for most shooters to overcome. Big bores just add to a problem that sometimes is never cured.

[tahunua001]

BTW, BC doesn't mean anything to 99% of the hunters out there at any range they have any business shooting at anything, including myself.

I'm not going to completely disagree with you but I think you are greatly overestimating the number of hunters that don't hunt long ranges. hunters in MT, WY, ID and eastern WA and OR and western north and sound dakota. are generally required to resort to long range shots when dealing with mule deer, Pronghorn, Big Horns, and Elk with the possibility of taking long shots at White Tail, Bison.

for the sake of argument we will limit them to 400 yard shots with a 30 caliber rifle. comparing a 180gr sierra pro hunter round nosed bullet and a 180gr Nosler Accubond.

with a 200 yard zero at 2800 fps, by 400 yards the accubond has dropped 21 inches, still has 1800 FTLBs of energy and is still traveling 2100 FPS.

with the same zero and muzzle velocity the pro hunter has dropped 31 inches, only has 900FTLBs of energy left and is going a very slow 1500 FPS.

for MOST hunters in western states long shots are normal BC is very important to factor in when handloading hunting ammo. I am quite certain that 99% of hunters do not reside in swamps and forests where long shots are considered anything over 50 yards.

[Paul B.]

This is all very interesting. I have at least 5 rifles, probably more tht will shoot sub-MOA or less, FROM THE BENCH! On my last elk hunt I took four rifles as I was not sure which I wanted to hunt with. They were a .270 Win., .280 Rem., .300 Win. Mag. and a .35 Whelen. The day before the hunt, I, along with my two partners went to the NRA's Whittington center to check out if rifles were properly sighted in. They were and all four shot sub-MOA groups. I shoot very good groups from the bench but admit I don't do all that well from field positions although I usually get one shot kills with some requiring a finisher. One of my partners that sighting in day shot my .280 and got a .50" group. He's been trying to buy that rifle ever since.
One of my really gut griping pet peeves is when someone asks for help on loading a cartidge and it seems like every one and their shirt tail cousins tries to get them to use something else. I'll use my pet elk round, the .35 Whelen as an example. Sure as God made little green apples the yahoos will tout the 338-06 as being better or the 9.3x62 as the better round. Why not just help the guy asking about the Whelen by answering his question(s). Guess that's just way too simple.
As far as shooting the latest and greatest, I'm currently thinking about going to the 7x57 for next year's elk hunt. I don't flinch and that's been proven more than once but my right shoulder has some arthritis and shooting the bigger stuff has gotten a bit uncomfortable. Not so much when I'm actually shooting but I do feel it the next day.
Paul B.

[ZeroJunk]

comparing a 180gr sierra pro hunter round nosed bullet and a 180gr Nosler Accubond.

Compare the same hunting bullet in .264, .284. and 308. Don't throw a round nose at a lower velocity in there to make your point. And compare a 30-06 or one of the 300 Mags against the Creedmore at 300 yards which is most peoples limit whether they chose to admit it or not.

[tahunua001]

again you are overlooking factual data and misrepresenting what constitutes the majority of hunters. why would I compare the same bullet type in different weights, ballistic coefficients and velocities in an attempt to prove that BC does matter? that is like claiming that SUVs get worse gas milage than cars so I compare the milage between an explorer, a durango and an extera... this offers no basis for either side of that argument. I did not compare a slower round nose, I compared a round nose traveling the same speed. the data I got came from the hornady ballistics calculator, the only difference was the ballistic coefficient of the two bullets. that goes of to show the need for good BC in hunting rounds over range. I will say again. unless you have hunted in more than one state, in more than one topographical region you really have no business saying what MOST hunters will and will not do. as I have said a person that lives in the badlands is going to be sorely disappointed if they refuse to shoot anything over 200 yards, just as a person hunting in Hell's Canyon is going to be very disappointed if they draw a once in a lifetime bighorn sheep tag but refuse to shoot at an animal more than 300 yards away.

MOST hunters do not live in north carolina. just like MOST hunters do not live in Idaho. however I have seen enough of the western US, and spoken with enough sportsmen in those locations to know that long shots are a necessary skill if you want to eat meat and if you need to take a long shot you need a bullet that isn't going to drop like a rock.

[ZeroJunk]

I have spent at least 250 days hunting in Montana and Canada and I guess just miraculously I have not found the necessity to try and make a "long" shot. I just walk away if I can't get close enough, no big deal. Another one will come along.

If you compare the BC of a typical hunting cartridge that people normally use elk hunting in 264, 284, or 308 at the velocities people normally use the BC doesn't amount to more than a couple of inches at ranges most hunters can hit a Volkswagon.

If you think you need a 6.5 that is fine with me, but if you kill something with it that you could not have killed with a 30-06 I would like to hear about it. Otherwise it is the same old gun rag best cartridge ever du jour.

[Geo_Erudite]

ZeroJunk, I have hunted Red Deer in the Cevennes Mountians of France and I can honestly say that I could not have killed my stag with either a .30-06 or .308. That is where my 6.5 Creedmoor came in really handy.

I just kid, I have never hunted outside of Wisconsin. I thought I would throw a little needed humor into this debate. I owned a Howa 1500 in a .30-06, it was my first rifle, but I had to sell it because I couldn't handle the recoil. I loved that gun.

Originally Posted by Paul B.

As far as shooting the latest and greatest, I'm currently thinking about going to the 7x57 for next year's elk hunt.

The 7x57 is truly a lovely cartridge!

[tahunua001]

very well. zero Junk.

308, 180gr soft point, traveling 2700 FPS, ballistic coefficient of .385 with 200 yard zero. this is the factory federal powershok load. at 400 yards velocity is 1850FPS, 1350 FTLB, and a little over 26 inches of bullet drop.

compare to the 180gr accubond from earlier at the same 2700fps muzzle and same zero. at 400 yards the AB is going 2050FPS, 1650FTLB, and has less than 24 inches of drop, flight path wise the high BC may not have a great deal of improvement in bullet drop over a decent soft point but the velocity and energy differences are still very substantial.

now lets move down to .284 as requested. using standard federal powershok loads for a 280 remington. 150gr bullet traveling at 2900 FPS, BC .415. at 400 yards, 2050FPS, 1425FTLB, bullet drop 21.5 inches.

Nosler E tip, same weight, velocity, ETC, BS 510. at 400 yards, over 2200FPS, 1625 FTLB, 20 inches bullet drop. again, significant differences in energy and velocity.

and finally with 6.5. 6.5x55mm federal power shoks, 140gr, BC .438, 2650FPS, same zero as others. at 400 yards, 1900FPS, 1125FTLBs, bullet drop 26 inches.

and with a 140gr berger VLD, BC .522. at 400 yards, 2000FPS, 1200FPS, bullet drop 24.5.

all of this is based on factory hunting ammunition and common hunting calibers. is every case the superior BC offers significantly superior velocity and energy as well as reduced bullet drop. you can try to rationalize that away all you want but for long range hunting application(whether you personally believe in it or not) BC is a major factor in bullet selection.

now about time someone steered this thread back on path... if it ever had one to begin with.

[Bezoar]

There are so many reasons why it happens, that it should be a post of its own. To sum it up, here follow the most common reasons.


1. caliber issues, 'grandpa jones told me you NEED a 243 on pocket gopher with 100 grain bullets. SO dont try to use your .308 or .223"

If someone is paying 1.25 per shot of rifle ammunition, then YOU should be paying the same basic cost of rifle ammunition. So that 20 dollar box of remington 30-30 is USELESS for deer. you boviously need that 49 dollar box of loaded vortex ammo.

2. 'helping the poster out' its the one that seems to start the most wars. Normally it follows a line of thought that is logical but not always of a service to the user. Here is an example that has happened.

'yes your 30-30 with normal bullets is more then fine at 150 yards. however i dont think the original poster is able to hit at that range with that rifle, or is able to judge range at all. so please go get a 30-06 or .308 and load it with the same 150 jsp, and your more then good if you think 200 yards is your 150 yard max range."

3. "yes i did it myself but the situation was really a set up that could not fail'

ie, yes i used a 44 russian to kill a black bear, but it iwas in a bear trap and i did get a bullet in the ear canal, but it took 30 tries because i was peeing my pants So dont use a 357, use at least a 44 mag.

[taylorce1]

MOST hunters do not live in north carolina. just like MOST hunters do not live in Idaho. however I have seen enough of the western US, and spoken with enough sportsmen in those locations to know that long shots are a necessary skill if you want to eat meat and if you need to take a long shot you need a bullet that isn't going to drop like a rock.

Not buying that last sentence at all, trajectory is one of the easiest things to compensate for. Wind is the toughest thing, and that is where the most benefit comes from having a high BC bullet. You can crunch the numbers all you want and there isn't any magic formula to guarantee sucess as far as foot pounds of energy and inches of bullet drop are concerned.

Being able to shoot long range is a nice skill to have but believe me it isn't necessary to be a successful hunter out here in the west. While I can bang a 10" steel target all day with boring regularity at 600 yards with a couple of my rifles, the majority of my big game has been shot at less than 250 yards. If you just learn the habits of the animals you're hunting you'll be a pretty successful hunter. I know I can shoot long range if I have too while hunting, but long range shooting isn't as fun as getting close. That is what makes me enjoy hunting the most.

[ZeroJunk]

very well. zero Junk.

308, 180gr soft point, traveling 2700 FPS, ballistic coefficient of .385 with 200 yard zero. this is the factory federal powershok load. at 400 yards velocity is 1850FPS, 1350 FTLB, and a little over 26 inches of bullet drop.

compare to the 180gr accubond from earlier at the same 2700fps muzzle and same zero. at 400 yards the AB is going 2050FPS, 1650FTLB, and has less than 24 inches of drop, flight path wise the high BC may not have a great deal of improvement in bullet drop over a decent soft point but the velocity and energy differences are still very substantial.

now lets move down to .284 as requested. using standard federal powershok loads for a 280 remington. 150gr bullet traveling at 2900 FPS, BC .415. at 400 yards, 2050FPS, 1425FTLB, bullet drop 21.5 inches.

Nosler E tip, same weight, velocity, ETC, BS 510. at 400 yards, over 2200FPS, 1625 FTLB, 20 inches bullet drop. again, significant differences in energy and velocity.

and finally with 6.5. 6.5x55mm federal power shoks, 140gr, BC .438, 2650FPS, same zero as others. at 400 yards, 1900FPS, 1125FTLBs, bullet drop 26 inches.

and with a 140gr berger VLD, BC .522. at 400 yards, 2000FPS, 1200FPS, bullet drop 24.5.

all of this is based on factory hunting ammunition and common hunting calibers. is every case the superior BC offers significantly superior velocity and energy as well as reduced bullet drop. you can try to rationalize that away all you want but for long range hunting application(whether you personally believe in it or not) BC is a major factor in bullet selection.

now about time someone steered this thread back on path... if it ever had one to begin with.

So, by your own admission you are fussing over 2 inches or so at 400 yards.
That was my point. The gun rag writers who have to come up with something to write about have been doing this for decades for whatever latest greatest cartridge or bullet. It is trivial in the field.

And I don't know what the path of this thread was if it wasn't recommending larger cartridges over smaller ones. Like it really matters or something.

[SansSouci]

The reality is all North American big game, including grizzly bear, has been felled with surplus .303 British, 7x57, .30-40 Krag, and Springfield rifles long before mega-magnums were born.

I don't own a .280 Rem because I was a whole lot smarter when I took up big game hunting than I am now. Were I to start anew, I'd but a .280 Rem and never buy another rifle.

The biggest magnum that I have seen hunters shoot comfortably at benches is the 7MM Rem Mag. I've seen a studly dude get knocked back darn near a century with his brand new .300 Win Mag.

[buck460XVR]

All the arguing aside, the biggest double standard presented on this and every other firearm forum I have ever been on is the statement that what is the best for me is the best for everyone. This does not only apply to caliber and bullets, but ethics, tactics, platform and distance of shots. Human nature dictates we think what we do is best. Our ego tells us that what we chose to use is best and that everyone should agree with us. Years ago when our circle of friends and their shooting/hunting experiences mirrored ours, it was easy to find folks that used what we used and hunted the way we did. The internet and social media has widened that circle greatly and no longer encompasses little or no diversity. While we should continue to give advice when it is asked, we need to realize that every experience out there is not our own. We should not be insulted when others do not agree, nor should we insult those that do not agree with us. The exchange of ideas and knowledge is what these forums is all about. If they were all exactly the same there would never be a need for more than one response.

[thekyrifleman]

Have read this thread with quite a bit of interest. Certainly, virtually all replies are opinions, just as this one is for sure. I go back to my first deer season in the middle 50's, I had no center fire rifle at that time. My father had a "bring back" 8X57, as did two of his brothers, Dad sent them back from Italy, another uncle had a 30/40 Krag, another a 94' Winchester in 30/30 and my grandfather had a 38/55 Winchester 73 I think. Certainly no magnums, no discussion of BC, velocity, SD, etc!! I received, on loan, from my oldest uncle, a 22 Hornet single shot, H&R I think, as it had replaceable shotgun barrel. A 4x scope attached.
The statement was very simple, " if you can't kill a deer with this rig, you are not ready to hunt"!! No joking, very straight forward. The variety of rifles that I described accounted for a lot of deer on the table. We hunted for meat, if there were antlers, well that was ok too. I guess this sounds like a rant and I don't mean it to, but all are opinions, and maybe the need "to be right" drives all the posting of statistics, which in my experience, which may be unique, are just numbers. If you want to know whatever caliber you are shooting will do at a given distance, go shoot it at that distance. Any bullet placed correctly will do the job, i.e., the 22 Hornet.

[44 AMP]

If you really want to see it stand out, just look at the handgun "advice" you get on the web. And, if you an even bigger difference of opinion, look at the old advertisements and the writing of the old time gunscribes.

Some of those were laughably opinionated by today's reasoning.

What I see most blatent is the current infatuation with heavier than standard weight bullets, most particularly in magnum & big bore calibers. Seems like if you are shooting anything but a person, you need a 180gr .357 or 300gr (or heavier) .44 or .45, and everything else is implied to be useless.

I don't think this is so, but it's essentially what a lot of people post.

any deer in north america(about 250 pounds roughly)

This made me smile. It a wonderful thing to live & hunt where the big deer live, but in a lot of the country a "big" deer goes 150lbs or less.
(I understand the point, just saying 250 is a big deer, and for a lot of places, its a giant deer)

I've been through the 60s and 70s discussion about magnum rifle rounds, how their power give such an advantage, etc., and the other side of the coin, how so few people could actually use the advantages, how people using too much gun was actually reducing their ability to hit...(there's lots more....)


This or that is too much, or isn't enough...hear it all the time.
And, its ALL true. For someone, somewhere, sometime...

Very little is true for everyone, everywhere, all the time...

The guy that buys a .338 OMG whatakik, shoots it 6 times, and takes it out after 90lb swamp deer because someone on the Internet told them its what they needed, isn't doing anyone a favor (including the deer) other than providing a customer for gun and ammo companies, and a license fee for the state.

[Strafer Gott]

It's hot out here, so it gets down to T shirts pretty quick. If you can shoot it in a t-shirt and tolerate the recoil, you probably don't have too much gun. A Ruger M77 in 300 Win mag spanked me pretty good by round 17, whereas I can shoot .30-06 all afternoon, particularly loaded with 130gr. for p-dogs. Comfort counts when you are reaching out.

[ZeroJunk]

This or that is too much, or isn't enough...hear it all the time.
And, its ALL true. For someone, somewhere, sometime...

Yeah. I have a lot more faith in the average hunter to figure out what he needs than most people on the internet do apparently. And, there is a pretty good list of cartridges that I could draw out of a hat and be about as happy with one as the other. I have killed a pretty good bunch of deer and a few elk and I don't recall a situation where any of the usual suspects would not have done the same job.

I would suggest a man pick a cartridge that he likes, rely on his best judgment, and not spend a lot of time trying to get some consensus that he made the right choice.

[double bogey]

IMHO, people can't shoot. Except all of us here. Next time you are at a crowded range, swing your spotting scope down the target line and see how many can keep 6" patterns. I think it's because very few shoot very often, and jerk the trigger and flinch due to recoil. I was the same way, until I got a past magnum recoil pad for bench shooting. ( couple of hundred deer rifle rounds a day hurts) Once recoil was out of the picture, I found out how good my rifles would shoot. Used to shoot a lot more than I do now, spent a couple of days a month at the range with several rifles (.243 thru 300 win mag). I helped many a fellow shooter find out there was nothing wrong with his rifle, it was him flinching.
All that being said, a bullet thru the boiler room in any caliber will get the job done. So any caliber you want to use is good with me. Just do whatever it takes to learn to shoot it well. I have had most deer shot in the chest with a .243 drop right there, while several have ran a short distance with the same shot with a .300 winmag. Does that make the .243 better? No, it just means individual animals will react differently to being shot.

[pathdoc]

The reality is all North American big game, including grizzly bear, has been felled with surplus .303 British, 7x57, .30-40 Krag, and Springfield rifles long before mega-magnums were born.

Or before the current crop of you-beaut, controlled-expansion, monolithic-this-or-that-or-the-other projectiles came along.

This is why I'm not going to agonise over whether my rifle/cartridge platform has the ability to get it done on the day - I know it does, almost regardless of which contemporary hunting projectile of the appropriate weight I stick in the cartridge mouth, because it's what people around my neck of the woods have been using for decades, with great success. The thing I agonise over is whether I'll be good enough on the day to make that rifle/cartridge platform work when ol' Bullwinkle hoves into view and the heart starts pounding and the hands start shaking... So on that note, I'll end with this prayer: will this cold weather please go away, so I can finish my load workup and get to the important business of practising my offhand shooting?