A quick question, and a rant

[Coinneach]

...namely, how in the hell do you guys crank out thousands at a time?

I had a bit of extra cash, and decided it was about time I started rolling my own. I picked up a Lee (DON'T start!) Anniversary Kit, a carbide die set for 9mm, 100 Speer FMJ 115gr bullets, 100 CCI primers, and a pound of Bullseye.

Got home, and the first thing I did was... *read the instructions!* Canyableevit?

Oh, what's this little note? "Speer advises that Speer bullets not be used with certain dies." Great. Friggin' great. WHICH dies? Oh, well... I figure I'll forge ahead and see what happens.

Oh... I'm supposed to drill holes in my bench in order to mount the press. Groovy. I don't have a drill bit for my Dremel. Time for some elbow grease.

Press relatively securely mounted, I install the deprime/flare die. First case: done. Second case: crunch. Guess it wasn't seated correctly in the shell holder. Deprimed and cleaned the rest of the cases without incident.

Now the hand primer... cool! This is a neat little gadget, and it actually works! This was probably the best part of the whole ordeal.

Charging. Ye gods and little fishes, what sadistic bastard came up with this? Set the scale, OK, done, now... hey, what's that in the box? A powder dropper! Cool!

45 minutes of calibration later, including one time when the dropper... dropped. Right out of the press. Powder all over the floor. Crap.

Refill the dropper, make sure it's still calibrated (and for a miracle, it is). Crank the case up, pull it back down... and it's stuck. [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]? Oh, it's *supposed* to stick, to make sure the powder drops correctly. Cool. Yank. The bench shakes, and the glass of water I had sitting on the little table on the bench topples. Directly into the dropper.

Crap. Again.

Another cleanup session, and I'm back to throwing charges. Only four cases flew out of the shell holder, too! I must be getting better at this.

Finally. All cases charged, all weighed, all within .1gr of each other, and 10% below max. Righteous. Now for the bullets.

Y'know, it would've been nice of Lee to include a calibration mark on the seating die adjusting screw. Or are bullets supposed to be set with 1/4" of them sticking out?

OK, 1 loaded cartridge that no sane person would dare fire. Eyeball the adjusting screw, seat another, and it's dead on 1.12". Great. Let's back it out just another .01 inch... 3rd time's the charm.

So, 3.5 hours and one unbelievable tension headache later, I have 49 reloaded rounds of 9mm. They all cycle fine, but I can't test them until this weekend. Hopefully I'll still have all my hands left so I can type up a range report.

Now where did I put that Tylenol...

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"The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it."
-- John Hay, 1872

[DAL]

A great post! It was quite entertaining.

Although I started reloading over 12 years ago, I stopped shortly afterwards for no particular reason. I recently started again, and I know some of the frustration of which you speak. Tonight, I was depriming/resizing some brass on my single stage Lee press and I guess I was jarring the bench with each cartridge because my radio danced off of the edge of the bench (I don't listen to the radio when doing other reloading steps, but the d/r step is pretty simple). Luckily, it didn't break, even though it hit concrete.

I still have the first round I ever reloaded, mainly because only an idiot would fire it, and I've yet to invest in a bullet puller. The bullet of this round is a SWC and it's seated so far in that only the top is visible above the rim. Another bonehead move I made while reloading was to prime a case with the primer in upside down; I simply threw that case away, but maybe I should've framed it as a monument to inattention. I'm sure I'll probably have other moments of stupidity while reloading--and hopefully, I'll survive.

Good luck with your reloads. I trust you've gotten through hard part and it should be smooth sailing from here on out. Yeah, right.
DAL

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Reading "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal," by Ayn Rand, should be required of every politician and in every high school.

[DOCSpanky]

My Lee kit arrived before Christmas, I had the same experience with a set of .45ACP dies, except I crunched the first case. And I took almost 7 hours because I got sooooooooooo frustrated I had to put it down and wait for a Tylenol/Motrin double shot to start workin!

I'm savin all my pennies for a Square Deal or something along those lines!

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DOCSpanky HM3 USN
Happiness is a smoking gun and a dead criminal

[Hal]

(See the reply to this thread by Mal H further down for the reason to avoid Speer in Lee dies)

Use the hand primer until it falls apart, should be about 5000 rounds if it's anything like mine. The soft metal in the thing gets a flat spot after a time, and just quits. Something to think about when you go out to purchase shell holders if you want to reload different calibers. There are a couple of better made ones. Concept of the thing is great, life of it is pretty short, and at a replacement cost of $12 to $15 per 5000 rounds, it does become a factor. CCI primers work the best in mine, and Federal work the worst. CCI's all flip right side up with one little shake, Federals require a lot of shake and bake to flip right side up.

My first expierence some 25 years ago pretty much echoed yours, except for the .357 instead of the 9mm. IMHO, a straight wall, .357/.38, .45LC or .44mag, revolver cartridge and a bulky powder, is a bit easier to learn on than 9mm or .45acp, as there is more visual reference to go by. If all you've got are the autos, then you don't have the luxury of an easy in like I did.

Lead slugs are also a bit tougher than jacketed or plated for beginning, more gunk to get in the way, so load a bunch before you try the cheap stuff. If you look around, you can find some generic jacketed or plated that are only a couple of bucks more than lead.

If you plan on changing calibers, buy an extra turret for the new caliber. Once set-up, you just pop it out. One Tylenol headache instead of one after another. Best investment of $10 bucks I ever made. To give you an idea of the age of my Lee, it came in a wooden carry box, with holes pre drilled to mount the press on the open box. Everthing I can buy now as far as current Lee production, fits my 25 year old press, and I have saved hundreds of dollars. Lee is good value, but there will come a time when it is time to move on to something better, (read Dillon 550). I will use the Lee for a dedicated 1 caliber press until it quits, with zero regrets. I got my $79.00 worth out of it.

Yep, there should be a Lee hall of flub fame, dedicated to misloaded rounds. I have all of the above in 4 different calibers, plus one or two with no primer, buckeled cases and "floating" bullets(the ones that drop all the way into the case and just slide back and forth between the powder and the crimp). Best to guide the case into the die by hand to avoid the crushed ones, old adage of getting what you pay for applies, Lees are not the tightest where tolerence is concerned. Mucho movement of dies during seating. Since I use loadings that are well below max (yeah,I know max is a subjective term), I can accept that, if loading for max, or close, I would have a lot of misgivings about using a Lee.

Lees are slow. No doubt about it. I speed up the process by sizing all the cases and expanding case mouths in one sitting, then throw them into a bag. Once I have a big bag full, I prime all the cases and put them in a zip lock bag, or 2 or 3 or 4 or however many I need. Final stage of charge, seat crimp are real mind intensive as opposed to the relatively mindless steps listed above. Working with belled, primed, clean cases for the final steps is a whole lot easier than doing it all at one sitting. Reduces the chances for Mr. Murphy to be around at those stages.

To answer your initial question, they crank out thousands at a time on better equipment. Not to worry though, one day what you save now will allow you to step up, plus give you the advantage of months/years of experience. It helps if you can talk a friend into a Dillon 550 as a first time press. I have a friend that wants to try reloading, but isn't sure if he will do it enough to justify the initial cost. I told him if he bought a Dillon 550 and didn't want it, I would buy it from him. Lee presses are good value if you use them within limits. Mine is fine for .45LC and .357 mag as well as 9mm and .45acp. Higher pressure bigger cases, like the .44mag factory once shot brass, puts a very noticeable strain on the press. I avoid using them in reloading by buying new unfired brass for reloading, still a considerable savings at $14.00 to $17.00 per hundred depending on location/brand/primed-unprimed.

To ease any buyer remorse. Good way to get your feet wet in reloading. What you learn now will apply forever. For a real headache, you should have bought a set of "pound 'em in-pound 'em out" Lee hand dies and reloaded 49 rounds in 49 pounding days. You would then be 1000% satisfied with your purchase.

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited January 05, 2000).]

[Joe D]

Hang in there. It will get better. You are going the correct route. The worst think you could have done was buy a expensive progressive loader. Starting out with a simple press makes you pay attention. I have been reloading for 30 years and just this Christmas got a Dillon 550B. Will I get rid of my trusty Rockchucker? Never. If you shoot a lot having a press that cranks out 400-500 rds. an hour is nice. Good luck.

[labgrade]

Coin Now you're an expert!

Like Joe said, try the Lee "pound 'em in" die sets. Pretty funny pulling the primer seating rod out of the ceiling when you tap a bit too hard.

Still loading on a single stage Rockchucker after, well, since ~64 or so. Pain in the butt for (especially those little 9s) volume, but never quite got around to a Dillon progressive. Still cranks 'em out tho'.

RAE's got a good point & I do the same thing re get 'em all set & primed. Later, when you just have to charge & seat, it seems to go faster by then.

Do check your seating/crimp die & make sure it's a TAPER and not a ROLL crimp. 9s headspace off the cartridge mouth & a roll doesn't work all that well (if at all) in semis. Don't even know why the hell they even sell a roll for a 9.

[Coinneach]

Thanks for the tips, guys. The main reason, besides cost, that I got a single was to burn the process into my alleged brain. T'were a learning experience, no doubt.

I wanted to start with 10mm, since I shoot it a lot more than 9mm, but the shop didn't have the die set. Grumble.

I'll size/reprime some more brass tonight. That's something I hadn't thought of; sounds like a great time-saver.

About the primer tool flipping the primers anvil-side-up: how do it know? I'm not complaining, just curious. It *was* pretty cool to see in action, though.

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"The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it."
-- John Hay, 1872

[Dave Finfrock]

Reloading is one of those things that has a relatively steep learning curve and gets much better the more you do it. You also learn certain tricks over time. One is to avoid anything from Lee. Another is that progressive tools are definately worth the money. I don't much care for the act of reloading itself, but I do like the results. So I buy Dillon and spend as little time as possible reloading the ammo I need.

[10mmrules]

oops

[This message has been edited by 10mmrules (edited January 05, 2000).]

[10mmrules]

you should have been around in the old days. I bought the first leeloader for 19.95 and dont remember really what all was there, but it didnt use a press. and instead of weighing powder it had scoops. yep it wernt real accurate. I moved up to the single stage and loaded rifle and pistol for about a year, and got tired of it, it was too much trouble.

That was 20-30 years ago. I just got back into shoting competition about 6 months ago. and the wife & I are firing 600-1000 rds a week. I bought a 550b, and I can load about 600 an hour if I am not interrupted. it makes a lot more consistent ammo than I can buy. and I load it to the levels that are comfortable to me.

when you start loading the 10mm try powerpistol, and use a lee factory crimp die.

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10MM Magnum.... tried the rest, now I got the best

[Mal H]

RAE - All good info except the part about the Speer/RCBS connection. It is well known that they have had a commercial connection for a long time. The problem is using Speer bullets in Lee Factory Crimp dies. Apparently the Speer jacket is a little thinner or perhaps a little softer than some others. There were problems with jackets splittng or even separating. Since it is up to the user to set the mount of crimp, this may or may not happen with each user. Speer only put out that warning for Lee dies, not Hornady, Redding, etc. Like you, I have used thousands of Speer bullets with Lee dies, including the factory crimp, with no problems. But the next guy might really crank down on the factory crimp and cause a serious problem.

[Hal]

Mal H,
Thanks for that info. In the interest of safey, in light of that, I'll remove that part of the post. I did hear it from the dealer, and he didn't offer any other reason. I'll make sure I relay that info to him also.

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited January 05, 2000).]

[Peter M. Eick]

labgrade,

I am glad that I am not the only one banging away with a rockchucker. I reload all of my ammo in a chucker and dutifully clean the primer pockets and check the length, and by god even weight (nearly) every charge.

Ok, ok, I know I need a dillon, but time is still cheap and part of the fun of reloading to me is the science and the experimentation.

By the way I have been eyeing the dillon 650 for several months now, maybe for my birthday!

Good luck all

pete

[Art Eatman]

Gee, Coinneach, sounds like some eye-hand coordination pills might help.

My first handloadin was on my uncle's old Pacific C-press. Then I got my very own reloading tool-set: A Lyman 310 Tong Tool! (This was back when they were all-steel.) It was tons of fun, for reloading .30-'06...

You'll look back on all this learning-curve stuff, someday, and shake your head in disbelief at your early-daze ineptitude. It all seems so easy, once you learn how!

Have fun, Art

[jtduncan]

Coinneach:

That's an O-frame press right? Here's the tricks:

Get a Midway 1292 tumbler and a prospector siftor (39.95, 12.99), and tumble your range cases first.

Buy a used turret press like a Lyman Spar-T that holds 6 dies, you can load 9mm and 45 or 40 or whatever, no changing or adjusting dies anymore - saves time. Screing in and adjusting dies wastes time.

Get some reloading blocks from Midway. You can negotiate the price down if you shop somewhat with them.

Reload in steps over 2/3 days.

Tumble one night. Decap/ Size / Bell one night, Hand Prime one night, Charge and Seat and Factory Crimp as a final step.

when I look at the time I worked to make my loads, I'm averaging 120 rounds per hour. My first 300 rounds may have been tough but you will pick up speed. Especially if you use the same charge for different guns.

With Titegoup, I use 4.5 or 4.2 grains for both 9mm and 45 ACP depending on whether its just BS plinking or tackdriving time.

Get a notepad out and write all the good points down and in a month you'll be cranking them out.



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The Seattle SharpShooter
If it can't shoot jacketed rat turds powered by mouse farts, I ain't gonna shoot it!

[Coinneach]

jt, yeah, it's an O-frame.

Question: why split the process over several days? Just to avoid fatigue?

Another point: I live in a really small cottage, less than 400 sq ft. I don't see putting together a relatively major operation with a bunch of machines (tumblers, etc) when I barely have room to walk as it is.

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"If your determination is fixed, I do not counsel you to despair. Few things are impossible to diligence and skill. Great works are performed not by strength, but perseverance."
-- Samuel Johnson

[LOCHFAL]

I've been loading for about ten years and just today finally experienced some of the worst conditions ever. I just started a new caliber, .444 Marlin. I bought brand new nickle plated brass and am trying to get 300 grn speer bullets into it. I'm finding that the darn things wont cycle in my rifle unless I seat the bullet just below Minimum Overall Length. Otherwise they bind the action up or wont let the bolt close. I've loaded 38, 357, 9mm, .223, 308, 300 win, 30/30, and about five others and never ever run into crap like this.

[labgrade]

LOCHFAL,

It may be that you have an usually short chamber that won't allow these catridges. Seems strange as that would be out of SAAMI specs, but .... this happen with any other bullet type/profile?

BTW, I had some real problems a coupla times with the Rem .444 Marlin nickles - primer pockets out of round & generally yucky (to be technical) ... all the reg brass was fine though.

& Coin, re the primer flipper ... that the type with all the concentric circles? Fresnel-type?

If so, the "to be struck by the firing pin side" has radiused edges & slide over the circles/ridges. The other side of the primer is relatively sharp & grabs the ridges causing more resistance which flips 'em over. Simple & effective.

[Unkel Gilbey]

Hey there!

Welcome to the club. I started reloading when I was about 14, and I started with the good old Lee Loader (Smack 'em with a hammer!) dies. An exploded primer really shocked me into some good habits, as only a primer going off in your hands will! I fully recommend to anyone starting out to take it slowly - and to utilize a single stage O-type press. I prefer RCBS, but in truth have been using a Lee Challenger for the last ten years. Mostly because the price was right when I went shopping for the press.

I use old 1 gallon milk jugs that I've cut the top off of to sort and segregate the cases that I am working on. I leave just enough of the top on there to retain the handle. When depriming, or sizing, or priming, or sorting after tumbling, these come in handy to keep everything in order. A word of caution though - if you are new to tumbling cases, do yourself a favor and don't mix 45 ACP cases in with 9mm, .380, or basically any case that will fit in the mouth of another. The media that you tumble with will find a way to 'glue' a handfull of those cases together in such a way that you will start to develop another one of those tension headaches you mentioned. I've had the same problem with straight-walled cases too. So do yourself a favor and resist the temptation to tumble more than one type of case at a time.

Good luck! Unkel Gilbey

[Coinneach]

Labgrade, thanks. A guy at work said exactly the same thing about the primer flipper.

Well, just to add to the fun, I picked up a set of RCBS 40S&W/10mm dies today. I shoot a lot more 10 than 9, so I fingered this would make sense.

Note to RCBS: Lee's expander die allows charging. Why doesn't yours? Grumble, mutter, whine...

Ah, well. Today's batch of 50 9s and 50 10s went way smoother than my first attempt. I could get to like this.

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"If your determination is fixed, I do not counsel you to despair. Few things are impossible to diligence and skill. Great works are performed not by strength, but perseverance."
-- Samuel Johnson

[OkieGentleman]

Hang in there Coinneach! By the way go down and buy yourself one of those bookkeeper style ledgers, a large one. Keep notes every thing! You will really hate it when you have worked up some super nice loads and cannot remember all of the details you need to duplicate them again. Above all be safe!!

[LOCHFAL]

Labgrade,
yea i'm off in search of some go no go gages for this puppy today. God I hope I can find them locally but its probably a call to Brownells and then wait ten days. The rifle took 40 rds of factory loaded stuff just fine and then started getting a little wierd with the 20th round of 240 gr reloads I did last week. I cured that just by cleaning so those loads were fouling up the chamber and action. These 300 gr speers are a new problem, got to seat them right below the Minimum OAL to get them to cycle and chamber. Oh and I am trying to use some brand new nickle plated brass too so I'll have to look into that.

[labgrade]

Okie to Coin,

Good point about the notes! Do take heed. & NEVER load from memeory - always reverify before dumping that powder.

"Now was that 21grs of Bullseye or 2100?"

Notes, at the least, can keep you from losing that one special load forever & at the most, preserve your face & shooter.

Good to rehash the basics now and again.

Keep that water (& all other stuff not directly related to your task at hand) away from the bench. & No smoking! Good idea to wear safety glasses - especially if you ever try those old Lee "pound 'em in" dies. A primer going off in your hand, even in an enclosure, gives you some idea of their power.

I don't know if you're aware, Coin, of the .38 & .44 Speer plastic indoor bullets .... they're plastic ("brass" & bullet) which only uses a primer as propellent. Will shoot a hole through heavy cardboard across the room - just using a primer. More powerful than most suspect ....

[This message has been edited by labgrade (edited January 08, 2000).]

[Coinneach]

Picked up a 500-page binder today. Thanks for the tip.

I'll probably hit Wally World tomorrow for something that I can use as a reload-only bench.

Labgrade, I hadn't heard of those weird plastic thingies. I'll steer clear of them.

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"If your determination is fixed, I do not counsel you to despair. Few things are impossible to diligence and skill. Great works are performed not by strength, but perseverance."
-- Samuel Johnson

[Unkel Gilbey]

Coinneach,
Those plastic 'loads' that one of the other posters was talking about are actually a good thing! They are used to sharpen your target skills, only they can be used in places where you wouldn't ordinarily use a regular pistol round. Places like your basement, the garage, you know, places where you might get away with the noise - but not the bullet holes, you dig?

Long time ago, pistol shooters who wanted to sharpen their skills would take a block of parafin that was about 1/2 inch thick, and then take a primed case and use the case like a cookie cutter to make a wax 'wad' in the case. Then they'd shoot away using only the primer's power and not have to worry about whacking one of the neighbors next door. Tackleberry of 'Police Academy' fame could have taken a lesson or two here.

Anyway, it was a pain to gather up the wax and then melt it down for another 50-100 rounds of target shooting, but it was a renewable resource. Accuracy wasn't even that bad with the wax wadcutters. These plastic bullets are just the latest, greatest in the indoor, primer propelled, shooting game. They're easy to use too. Just prime the case, press one of these bullets into the case mouth with your fingers, and there you go. These rounds don't have enough moxie to cycle a slide, but who cares? You get to pop off a box of .45's or what ever in the privacy of your own home, and all it really costs is the primers and the one time cost of the plastic bullets. A heavy canvas sheet, or multiple layers of cardboard (seperate the layers by a foot to kill off the projectiles velocity) and you should be cooking with gas. You'll have to play with the practical range of these suckers, but I think that 25 - 30 feet is a fair distance. Heck, these might even be good for running off dogs or 'coons that are dumping your garbage cans - not to mention those pesky kids that egged your house last Cabbage night! (Just kidding about the dogs!!!)

At any rate, if you are constrained by a lack of shooting places, and if the neighbors aren't bothered by loud noises coming from your pad - then give them a go!
Unkel Gilbey