Trouble with .223 reloads - Page 2

Reloadron · August 10, 2016, 01:20 PM

Something worth noting is there can be several dimensions oversize which will prevent a case from chambering. Case gauges made by companies such as Forrester and L.E. Wilson can be a useful tool but like any tool we need to know what the gauge actually measures. Gauges like this while not taking a quantitative measurement (no real numbers) do serve as a good Go/NoGo type gauge. Again, keeping in mind which features the gauge looks at. For example from our friends at L.E. Wilson:

Quote:

Note: Does not measure body diameters. This gage is intended to be used with fired cases to determine a basis for full length sizing and trimming.

This is where if someone is going to invest in a case gauge something worth consideration is Slot Gauges or Non-Slotted by Sheridan Engineering. When many bench rest and serious target shooters have a barrel chamber cut and barrel installed they will have the smith make them a custom gauge using the same reamer the new chamber was just cut with. This way they have a gauge which is a mirror image of their chamber. While not practical for the average shooter the Sheridan Case Gauges take case diameter into consideration. Just something to think about.

Ron

HiBC · August 10, 2016, 05:36 PM

Jeephammer,

My comment to the OP had nothing to do with sizing. It had nothing to do with small base dies.
I suggest you carefully re-read post #16,the last few lines.

It was all about (NOT) setting the SEATER die down on the shellholder,due to crimp/shoulder collapse.

Shoulder collapse is often root cause of loaded rounds not chambering and getting stuck.
I am a believer in bushing case gages,but as reloadron correcty pointed out,most of them are about measuring lengths.The diameters must be clearance to gage lengths.

OP,I understand deciphering all of this and all of the side trips may be difficult and confusing.

Just try this one thing.Take your calipers and measure the case dia at the shoulder.Then measure about 3/16 back from the shoulder.If the shoulder dia is bigger,look real close at the shoulder.See that swelling? That's your problem,per my theory,anyway.How does that happen?

Folks who "know what they are doing" don't read instructions on setting up the dies.Your seating die is set to contact the shellholder.That is usually wrong.

You are applying the maximum crimp the die is capable of,and it has no place to go.
You are crushing the shoulders back with the force.That causes the shoulder to increase in diameter.It then locks up in the taper of the chamber.

Before you waste your time and money on small base dies,just back your seater die one rotation off the shellholder and see if problem solved.

OdinsRightHand · August 10, 2016, 06:56 PM

HiBC, I will honestly look into all the advice. However, upon closer inspection, I swapped bolts with the wife's AR and the rounds chamber much easier. There is a slight height difference between the two, mine is taller. A case gauge will be hunted for asap

Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

HiBC · August 10, 2016, 07:12 PM

Headspace is certainly a factor to be verified.
I once bought an AR bbl from a a highly regarded supplier of competition grade AR barrels.I bought it with a matched bolt.The short version,this outfit uses a very modest amount of torque into the bbl ext,backed up by Loctite.They have found better accuracy that way.Except,the wrong grade of Loctite found its way into production.Tightening my barrel nut unscrewed the barrel from the extension.
They said "Send it back" Great friendly customer service.I sent the bolt,too.

New barrel arrived without a bolt.I admit,I was inclined to assemble and go with it.But I believe in checking headspace,and that's not a place to get sloppy.

Took the bbl to my local smith with 3 bolts I had.The bbl failed "NoGo " with all 3 bolts.

And,yes,they said "Send it back",and sent me another barrel/bolt.

And maybe,just maybe,you have a tight headspace rifle AND you are collapsing cases. :-)

Good luck!!

OdinsRightHand · August 10, 2016, 07:25 PM

Ok, my biggest thing is, this only happens with reloads. Factory ammo runs fantastic

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OdinsRightHand · August 10, 2016, 07:28 PM

So quick recap. A go/no go gage and a chamber measuring tool is the next step as well as measuring the case behind the shoulder? So much information into a novices head. I am so thankful to you all!!!

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603Country · August 10, 2016, 07:43 PM

Just go ahead and order a Redding Body Die (pretty cheap) and use it on a few of your sticky rounds. If your problem is the slightly collapsed and rounded case shoulder, and I think it is, the body die will fix it. It fixed my problem cases. It's an inexpensive and easy fix.

WVMountaineer · August 10, 2016, 08:25 PM

Get a case gauge as stated.

Make sure you are not over lubing. To much lube could change the angle at the shoulder of the round. God Bless

OdinsRightHand · August 10, 2016, 09:53 PM

The measurements of the shoulder and about 1/8 of an inch behind the shoulder are about .006 difference.

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HiBC · August 10, 2016, 11:38 PM

Bigger at the shoulder? If it is bigger at the shoulder,problem identified.

To illustrate what is happening,try a piece of brass in your seating die with no bullet.Does it crimp? Lightbulb comes on.

OK,Loosen the 7/8-14 lock ring on your seater die.Back the die out 3 turns,away from the shellholder.Put a piece of sized,trimmed brass in the shellholder.Raise the ram.Tutn the die body down tillyou feel it contact the case neck.Note,it is not contacting the shellholder.

Now,back the die body up out of the press "Some".If 1/8 turn makes you happy,great.I suggest finding a washer ot a feeler gage to be able to repeat this setting .Tighten the lock ring.Its not bad to slightly load the die with a flat shimon the shelholder.Some say that helps center the die for more coaxial ammo

Now,reset seating depth.

One problem solved.

OdinsRightHand · August 11, 2016, 05:45 AM

No the shoulder is narrower than the body. Sorry should have been more clear.

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603Country · August 11, 2016, 10:42 AM

Well, back to my original suggestion. Get a Micrometer and calipers and measure your non-chambering cases versus factory rounds. The toughest chambering problem I ever had to solve was that new Lapua brass, with a bullet seated, was too thick at the neck to chamber in my new rifle barrel. The barrel had a tight match chamber that the gunsmith had provided and that I had not asked for. Factory rounds chambered, so I measured the reloaded rounds about very way you can measure, and I finally found the problem. You, like I did, have something that is out of spec.

It's time to measure.

OdinsRightHand · August 11, 2016, 12:31 PM

Good to go, thanks!!

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MosinM39 · August 13, 2016, 10:54 PM

http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-...h-Body-1-Each/

The Hornady headspace tool can be handy in a time like this. I also use a Dillon case gage as the so called "go , no-go" check.

OP, sorry if I missed it, did you state what type of reloading press, dies, and what brass (source? maker? once fired? etc) you are using in the reloads? For me a good quality competition sizing die, set up properly, gets the reloads to chamber in all my rifles.

Gunplummer · August 14, 2016, 02:52 AM

Sometimes military brass leaves a "High spot" where the primer was crimped in. It would have to be a pretty tight chamber to affect locking up.

Sky Master · August 16, 2016, 08:56 AM

I had a similar problem with Lee sizing die. Purchased RCBS small base sizing die. Problem gone.

JeepHammer · August 16, 2016, 09:43 AM

HiBC,
What I was batting at, with AR rifles in particular, is the bottom of the case, just above extraction groove, is unsupported in the chamber and swells/bloats uncontrolled.
This takes 'Small Base' dies to push back in where it belongs.
Real common with AR rifles.

The second point I was trying to make, and also very common,
Guys don't use the Datum point on the case for the proper headspace,
They simply crank the die down, pushing the shoulder too far back in a lot of cases.

The third issue that is also common with new reloaders, is roll/taper crimping dies pressing DOWN on the case mouth, flairing the shoulder outwards.
Lots of time getting the sizing die correctly adjusted, the shoulder pushed back for proper head space,
Using small base dies to get the bottom of the case pushed back to an acceptable size,
Then screw the entire thing up by too much crimp pushing DOWN and flairing the shoulder outward...
Super common with guys that don't trim cases to length after sizing, range/plinking ammo being the most common...

Size to fit the headspace gauge, load, then drop in the headspace gauge again to see if the shoulder flaired when seating/crimping bullet.
If the headspace changed when loading, the crimp is set too hard.

Now, there IS a sloution for the guys that don't want to trim every single plinking round, and that's a Lee 'Factory Crimp' die.
Since the 'Factory Crimp' die uses a collet to press the crimp in from the SIDES of the case, (instead of stright down on the mouth of the case),
And the shoulder is somewhat supported during the crimp,
You can load unequal length brass (but still within accepted limits) without trimming each and every case so a roll or taper crimp die will work consistantly, if not 'Properly'.

By changing bolts with another rifle the OP has 'Unknown' headspace on TWO rifles...
What I was suggesting is VERIFYING his ammo is within acceptable limits,
And if the problem still presented, the. It was time to take the firearm down for a professional inspection...
This would get him shooting in 3 of 4 rifles he's reloading for, and verify the 4th needs a good looking at by a professional...

Since he's going to reload for multiple firearms, its imparative that his ammo be 'Correct',
If it were ONE firearm, I would recommend the same route,
Ammo 'Acceptable', then have the firearm looked at.

Since factory ammo cycles with no issues, I'm guessing he has a chamber that is a little 'Tight', headspace a little on the 'Short' side,
Over crimping,
Or, the bullets are being seated a little long for the Ogive on the bullet he's using.
The 'Sharpie' test indicates the Ogive is getting into the rifling, short throat in the chamber for where he's seating bullets...
But I also think getting the cases correct, then verifying the shoulder isn't bulged due to over crimp ($20 case gauge) will go a long way to VERIFYING he's producing acceptable ammo... And rule out issue he hasn't discovered yet.

Sky Master · August 16, 2016, 01:17 PM

I also use a Lyman case gauge for .223. I will insure that proper head space and length are maintained.

bandw1dth · August 21, 2016, 09:28 AM

Another thing that really helped me when I first started loading for my ARs is to seat and crimp in separate stages. @JeepHammer your statement regarding the roll / taper crimp dies flaring the shoulders of various length brass outward bring back nightmares. Thanks!! I was just able to get through a full nights sleep without waking up screaming "TRIM TO 1.750!!!!!"

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

JeepHammer · August 21, 2016, 10:37 AM

Seating & crimping in two different processes is almost mandatory when loading large volumes...
You just aren't going to get the brass trimmed to EXACTLY the same length so a roll/taper crimper works 100% of time...

Only the most OCD reloader will trim, check, trim, ect...
And if you aren't precise, something else has to give,
Either you are going to over/under crimp,
Or in worst case, buckle the shoulder...

Since I have auto indexing progressive, I use TWO sizing dies, just to make sure the case 'Spring Back' doesn't interfere, or crud under the shell holder, or crud in the die from thousands of rounds doesn't screw things up.

The first die has the throat honed out so it doesn't overwork the neck,
Gives me the most control on the headspace, and with ball removed the rod only punches the primer,
Then the second die sizes the neck, and it can be adjusted to minimize the shoulder push/pull while sizing the neck.

Once the shoulder/headspace is correct,
Then its once through a length trimmer that indexes off the shoulder/datum where its supposed to,
No misaligned cases in the trimmer, no flat faces cutter that needs champfers inside & outside,
Trims off the worst of the work hardened factory crimp,
And preps the case for loading any kind of bullet.

A pass through primer crimp trimmer and pocket uniformer gives primer pockets that work good,
And if needed, annealing...
And its off to loading with as close to a uniform case as I can produce.

August 10, 2016, 11:38 PM	#35
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	Bigger at the shoulder? If it is bigger at the shoulder,problem identified. To illustrate what is happening,try a piece of brass in your seating die with no bullet.Does it crimp? Lightbulb comes on. OK,Loosen the 7/8-14 lock ring on your seater die.Back the die out 3 turns,away from the shellholder.Put a piece of sized,trimmed brass in the shellholder.Raise the ram.Tutn the die body down tillyou feel it contact the case neck.Note,it is not contacting the shellholder. Now,back the die body up out of the press "Some".If 1/8 turn makes you happy,great.I suggest finding a washer ot a feeler gage to be able to repeat this setting .Tighten the lock ring.Its not bad to slightly load the die with a flat shimon the shelholder.Some say that helps center the die for more coaxial ammo Now,reset seating depth. One problem solved. Last edited by HiBC; August 11, 2016 at 12:02 AM.

August 10, 2016, 05:36 PM	#27
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	Jeephammer, My comment to the OP had nothing to do with sizing. It had nothing to do with small base dies. I suggest you carefully re-read post #16,the last few lines. It was all about (NOT) setting the SEATER die down on the shellholder,due to crimp/shoulder collapse. Shoulder collapse is often root cause of loaded rounds not chambering and getting stuck. I am a believer in bushing case gages,but as reloadron correcty pointed out,most of them are about measuring lengths.The diameters must be clearance to gage lengths. OP,I understand deciphering all of this and all of the side trips may be difficult and confusing. Just try this one thing.Take your calipers and measure the case dia at the shoulder.Then measure about 3/16 back from the shoulder.If the shoulder dia is bigger,look real close at the shoulder.See that swelling? That's your problem,per my theory,anyway.How does that happen? Folks who "know what they are doing" don't read instructions on setting up the dies.Your seating die is set to contact the shellholder.That is usually wrong. You are applying the maximum crimp the die is capable of,and it has no place to go. You are crushing the shoulders back with the force.That causes the shoulder to increase in diameter.It then locks up in the taper of the chamber. Before you waste your time and money on small base dies,just back your seater die one rotation off the shellholder and see if problem solved.

August 10, 2016, 06:56 PM	#28
OdinsRightHand Member Join Date: July 31, 2016 Posts: 19	HiBC, I will honestly look into all the advice. However, upon closer inspection, I swapped bolts with the wife's AR and the rounds chamber much easier. There is a slight height difference between the two, mine is taller. A case gauge will be hunted for asap Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

August 10, 2016, 07:12 PM	#29
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	Headspace is certainly a factor to be verified. I once bought an AR bbl from a a highly regarded supplier of competition grade AR barrels.I bought it with a matched bolt.The short version,this outfit uses a very modest amount of torque into the bbl ext,backed up by Loctite.They have found better accuracy that way.Except,the wrong grade of Loctite found its way into production.Tightening my barrel nut unscrewed the barrel from the extension. They said "Send it back" Great friendly customer service.I sent the bolt,too. New barrel arrived without a bolt.I admit,I was inclined to assemble and go with it.But I believe in checking headspace,and that's not a place to get sloppy. Took the bbl to my local smith with 3 bolts I had.The bbl failed "NoGo " with all 3 bolts. And,yes,they said "Send it back",and sent me another barrel/bolt. And maybe,just maybe,you have a tight headspace rifle AND you are collapsing cases. :-) Good luck!!

August 10, 2016, 07:25 PM	#30
OdinsRightHand Member Join Date: July 31, 2016 Posts: 19	Ok, my biggest thing is, this only happens with reloads. Factory ammo runs fantastic Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

August 10, 2016, 07:28 PM	#31
OdinsRightHand Member Join Date: July 31, 2016 Posts: 19	So quick recap. A go/no go gage and a chamber measuring tool is the next step as well as measuring the case behind the shoulder? So much information into a novices head. I am so thankful to you all!!! Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

August 10, 2016, 07:43 PM	#32
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	Just go ahead and order a Redding Body Die (pretty cheap) and use it on a few of your sticky rounds. If your problem is the slightly collapsed and rounded case shoulder, and I think it is, the body die will fix it. It fixed my problem cases. It's an inexpensive and easy fix.

August 10, 2016, 08:25 PM	#33
WVMountaineer Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2015 Posts: 330	Get a case gauge as stated. Make sure you are not over lubing. To much lube could change the angle at the shoulder of the round. God Bless

August 10, 2016, 09:53 PM	#34
OdinsRightHand Member Join Date: July 31, 2016 Posts: 19	The measurements of the shoulder and about 1/8 of an inch behind the shoulder are about .006 difference. Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

August 11, 2016, 05:45 AM	#36
OdinsRightHand Member Join Date: July 31, 2016 Posts: 19	No the shoulder is narrower than the body. Sorry should have been more clear. Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

August 11, 2016, 10:42 AM	#37
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	Well, back to my original suggestion. Get a Micrometer and calipers and measure your non-chambering cases versus factory rounds. The toughest chambering problem I ever had to solve was that new Lapua brass, with a bullet seated, was too thick at the neck to chamber in my new rifle barrel. The barrel had a tight match chamber that the gunsmith had provided and that I had not asked for. Factory rounds chambered, so I measured the reloaded rounds about very way you can measure, and I finally found the problem. You, like I did, have something that is out of spec. It's time to measure.

August 11, 2016, 12:31 PM	#38
OdinsRightHand Member Join Date: July 31, 2016 Posts: 19	Good to go, thanks!! Sent from my SM-G925T using Tapatalk

August 13, 2016, 10:54 PM	#39
MosinM39 Junior member Join Date: July 23, 2016 Posts: 85	http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-...h-Body-1-Each/ The Hornady headspace tool can be handy in a time like this. I also use a Dillon case gage as the so called "go , no-go" check. OP, sorry if I missed it, did you state what type of reloading press, dies, and what brass (source? maker? once fired? etc) you are using in the reloads? For me a good quality competition sizing die, set up properly, gets the reloads to chamber in all my rifles.

August 14, 2016, 02:52 AM	#40
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	Sometimes military brass leaves a "High spot" where the primer was crimped in. It would have to be a pretty tight chamber to affect locking up.

August 16, 2016, 08:56 AM	#41
Sky Master Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2009 Posts: 136	I had a similar problem with Lee sizing die. Purchased RCBS small base sizing die. Problem gone.

August 16, 2016, 09:43 AM	#42
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	HiBC, What I was batting at, with AR rifles in particular, is the bottom of the case, just above extraction groove, is unsupported in the chamber and swells/bloats uncontrolled. This takes 'Small Base' dies to push back in where it belongs. Real common with AR rifles. The second point I was trying to make, and also very common, Guys don't use the Datum point on the case for the proper headspace, They simply crank the die down, pushing the shoulder too far back in a lot of cases. The third issue that is also common with new reloaders, is roll/taper crimping dies pressing DOWN on the case mouth, flairing the shoulder outwards. Lots of time getting the sizing die correctly adjusted, the shoulder pushed back for proper head space, Using small base dies to get the bottom of the case pushed back to an acceptable size, Then screw the entire thing up by too much crimp pushing DOWN and flairing the shoulder outward... Super common with guys that don't trim cases to length after sizing, range/plinking ammo being the most common... Size to fit the headspace gauge, load, then drop in the headspace gauge again to see if the shoulder flaired when seating/crimping bullet. If the headspace changed when loading, the crimp is set too hard. Now, there IS a sloution for the guys that don't want to trim every single plinking round, and that's a Lee 'Factory Crimp' die. Since the 'Factory Crimp' die uses a collet to press the crimp in from the SIDES of the case, (instead of stright down on the mouth of the case), And the shoulder is somewhat supported during the crimp, You can load unequal length brass (but still within accepted limits) without trimming each and every case so a roll or taper crimp die will work consistantly, if not 'Properly'. By changing bolts with another rifle the OP has 'Unknown' headspace on TWO rifles... What I was suggesting is VERIFYING his ammo is within acceptable limits, And if the problem still presented, the. It was time to take the firearm down for a professional inspection... This would get him shooting in 3 of 4 rifles he's reloading for, and verify the 4th needs a good looking at by a professional... Since he's going to reload for multiple firearms, its imparative that his ammo be 'Correct', If it were ONE firearm, I would recommend the same route, Ammo 'Acceptable', then have the firearm looked at. Since factory ammo cycles with no issues, I'm guessing he has a chamber that is a little 'Tight', headspace a little on the 'Short' side, Over crimping, Or, the bullets are being seated a little long for the Ogive on the bullet he's using. The 'Sharpie' test indicates the Ogive is getting into the rifling, short throat in the chamber for where he's seating bullets... But I also think getting the cases correct, then verifying the shoulder isn't bulged due to over crimp ($20 case gauge) will go a long way to VERIFYING he's producing acceptable ammo... And rule out issue he hasn't discovered yet.

August 16, 2016, 01:17 PM	#43
Sky Master Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2009 Posts: 136	I also use a Lyman case gauge for .223. I will insure that proper head space and length are maintained.

August 21, 2016, 09:28 AM	#44
bandw1dth Member Join Date: April 27, 2016 Posts: 22	Another thing that really helped me when I first started loading for my ARs is to seat and crimp in separate stages. @JeepHammer your statement regarding the roll / taper crimp dies flaring the shoulders of various length brass outward bring back nightmares. Thanks!! I was just able to get through a full nights sleep without waking up screaming "TRIM TO 1.750!!!!!" Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

August 21, 2016, 10:37 AM	#45
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	Seating & crimping in two different processes is almost mandatory when loading large volumes... You just aren't going to get the brass trimmed to EXACTLY the same length so a roll/taper crimper works 100% of time... Only the most OCD reloader will trim, check, trim, ect... And if you aren't precise, something else has to give, Either you are going to over/under crimp, Or in worst case, buckle the shoulder... Since I have auto indexing progressive, I use TWO sizing dies, just to make sure the case 'Spring Back' doesn't interfere, or crud under the shell holder, or crud in the die from thousands of rounds doesn't screw things up. The first die has the throat honed out so it doesn't overwork the neck, Gives me the most control on the headspace, and with ball removed the rod only punches the primer, Then the second die sizes the neck, and it can be adjusted to minimize the shoulder push/pull while sizing the neck. Once the shoulder/headspace is correct, Then its once through a length trimmer that indexes off the shoulder/datum where its supposed to, No misaligned cases in the trimmer, no flat faces cutter that needs champfers inside & outside, Trims off the worst of the work hardened factory crimp, And preps the case for loading any kind of bullet. A pass through primer crimp trimmer and pocket uniformer gives primer pockets that work good, And if needed, annealing... And its off to loading with as close to a uniform case as I can produce.