.22 LR vs. 32 ACP for Self-Defense

[jonnyc]

I have often carried a KT P32 or a Beretta 71 in .22LR, depending on the year or situation. In neither case did I feel defenseless. With training, practice, and social awareness (not to mention distance and shot placement), both are as deadly as they need to be.

[jimku]

Originally Posted by Walt Sherrill

The problem with the .22, in addition to potential unreliability -- and I've had a lot of that over the years shooting .22s -- is that in a personal defense situation you just about have to go for a eye or mouth shot.
(Note: I have two friends, one a pathologist, the second an EMT. Both of talked about seeing people shot in the head with .22s, where the round went under the skin, but did not penetrate the skull, and went half-way around the head, leaving the "victim" with little more than a sore head. Miss that eye socket shot, and what do you have? Someone with their hands around your throat.)

I have to call B.S. on this. It is (or at least was) VERY common practice to dispatch cattle for butchering in slaughter houses with a singe shot to the brain with a snubby .22 pistol. I was raised on a cattle ranch where we butchered our own beef. I have personally done exactly that more times than I can probably count. In front between the eyes and from the top straight down. A cow's skull is quite thicker than that of a human. Without fail the cow dropped instantly like a sack of wet manure. So please do not try to feed me a line of smelly stuff about a .22 not penetrating someone's skull. I will not buy it.

I suppose that, give the exact and very unlikely angle, distance and round used (maybe a .22 short?), it is possible to have what that pathologist and EMT describe actually happening. But far from having his hands around your throat the dude would probably be reeling from a concussion, seeing little stars and standing in the yard trying to find the house.

That said, with my diminutive little PT22 or Beretta Bobcat I can easily put 9 rounds into a head shot at 7 yards in about one second. Also, I have never in my life had a .22 misfire that didn't go off the 2nd time it was fired ... and both of these little pistols allow you to fire again merely by pulling the trigger again. Even if I did buy into the line of stuff quoted, 9 rounds rapid fire at a head at 7 yards has a VERY high probability of at least ONE of them going into the mouth or an eye socket.

But it is not all about head shots. The name of the game in self-defense isn't to kill someone necessarily ... the goal is to convince them to go play somewhere else and leave you alone. 9 rounds into a perp's upper torso might not stop him instantly, but he will be wobbling on his pins wanting his mommy if not dropping at your feet, and he will most likely be dead before an ambulance can get there. And a hit to his heart will stop him just as fast as the same hit with a 357. If you have never hunted small game such as coyotes with a .22, you really have no idea the damage they can actually do.

[jimku]

Originally Posted by Blue Duck357

Gotta know the 22's limitations and make your choice, but like you said the guy may get hold of my throat, if so thats the perfect range to start puttin'em through the eye socket

EXACTLY. A .22 pistol is for last-ditch, up close and personal. Schtick it in his ear and pull the trigger.

Actually, with today's laws, every caliber should be treated this way without exception. Unless your very life is threatened, AND THAT THREAT IS IMMINENT (meaning going to happen in the next second), if you draw that gun and so much as display it, you are committing assault with a deadly weapon and are most likely on your way to a few years vacationing in prison as well as being bankrupted by legal fees. 7 yards away is NOT IMMINENT. 3 yards away IS NOT IMMINENT. The threat is NOT IMMINENT unless he actually has hands on you AND YOU FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE. Unless the S.O.B. is actually shooting at you or pointing a gun at you. And if he is pointing a gun at you, you are a certified idiot if you try to draw yours, you will be dead before you clear leather.

[Bill DeShivs]

Jimku- your experience shooting cows at the proper angle has nothing to do with SD head shots.
Bullets bouncing off human skulls is actually pretty common.
Unless the bullet is travelling at pretty close to a 90 degree angle to the skull, it's pretty easy for it to be deflected. Often times, bullets travel under the scalp, followling the skull and exit-looking like a through head shot.
This doesn't just happen with .22s. Locally this happened with a .38 Spl. hollow point back when the local PD still carried revolvers. I have read about it happening with .45 acp, too.

And as far as your legal advice, please don't quit your job to take up law.

[Mike38]

3 yards away IS NOT IMMINENT. The threat is NOT IMMINENT unless he actually has hands on you AND YOU FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE.

I'm not so sure about that. I'm no expert, but I would guess the average person, aged 20-30 years old, in average physical condition could close that 3 yard gap in one second. If that person has a knife, and your carry pistol is still holstered, you will be bleeding. You don't have to be bad breath close to be in imminent danger.

I can't draw my pistol and get off a good shot in less than one second, and I doubt 95% of the people reading this can either.

[jetinteriorguy]

Heck, I once had a 9mm FMJ bounce off a raccoons skull at close range. Out hunting with the hounds I had to climb a pine tree to get a good shot. At about 8-10 ft I hit it in the head and it fell dead out of the tree, or so I thought. Once on the ground I was examining the hide and holy crap, he came to life and was pretty ticked off. My partner dispatched him with a shot to the head up close from his 1022.

[seanc]

jimku:

3 yards away IS NOT IMMINENT. The threat is NOT IMMINENT unless he actually has hands on you AND YOU FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE. Unless the S.O.B. is actually shooting at you or pointing a gun at you. And if he is pointing a gun at you, you are a certified idiot if you try to draw yours, you will be dead before you clear leather.

Trying to keep this straight:
A) You're not in imminent threat unless you're in the grasp of someone that means to do you harm. Check!
B) If you're already in the grasp of someone who means to do you harm or they're already shooting at you, it's too late to use your gun in self defense. Check!
C) You're a certified idiot. Check!

How many times a year has a gun been used in self defense and not been fired?

How many prosecutions for

assault with a deadly weapon and are most likely on your way to a few years vacationing in prison as well as being bankrupted by legal fees

?

[zoo]

Three yards is not imminent? Apparently few people here have had someone coming at them with a knife or pipe.

[JERRYS.]

lots of false information on this thread.

[SHR970]

Area. 22= .0394" 32 = .0756" 32 wins

Muzzle velocity per same length barrels. Statistical tie.

Standard Bullet Weight: 22= 40 Gr. 32 = 71 Gr. (US) 32 wins by 75% advantage.

Reliability in ignition: Rimfire vs Center fire.... Centerfire wins.

So far the 32 ACP is ahead.

[ThomasT]

My only 32acp is a Walther/Manhurin PP made in 1957. I would pick it over a small 22 especially with my 100gr lead bullet reloads. But if I chose a 22 it would be loaded with Remington Yellow Jacket ammo.

Long ago I test a lot of different hollow point 22 ammo and the Yellow Jacket was hands down the best when it came to expansion. Way better than the CCI Mini Mag. The Mini Mag is fine from a longer barrel but never expanded from the short barrel of my IJ TP22. The Yellow Jacket always expanded.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1601511080

Out of stock right now but the latest Midway flyer had it advertised so I'm guessing they are expecting it back one day.

[flyer898]

I live in the desert where it is hot in the summer. The goal was to find the smallest size, effective handgun, that is also safe to carry with a loaded chamber. I anticipate pocket carry - that means speed will be a relative thing, but adding time to work the slide is not an option.
I considered revolvers. The smallest double action revolvers are much larger than the pistol I chose. I also considered a North American five-shot .22WMR and the High Standard D-101 .22WMR derringer. I decided against each because out of their very short barrels, I think velocity is too low. The low round capacity was also a factor.
None of the .22LR autos I considered are, in my opinion, safe to carry with a loaded chamber.
Then I got around to reading the copy of “Stopping Power” by Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow that I bought at a close out price when Paladin Press closed its doors a few years ago. One of there articles reintroduced me to the Seecamp LW-32.
I was fortunate to find a low (four digit) serial number example at the right price. The Seecamp is a double-action only (DAO) .32 auto. DAO means the trigger pull for every shot is about seven pounds and the travel is about an inch; this is not a trigger that can be activated unintentionally.
The Seecamp was designed around the Winchester 60gr. Silvertip ammunition. I could not find any Silvertips for sale. The Seecamp website now lists other .32 acp self-defense ammunition as appropriate for the Seecamp. Interestingly it advises against FMJ ammo and that ammo is reputed to be unreliable in the Seecamp.
Another interesting note is the Seecamp is intended for (very) close-quarters use and does not have sights.
I tested mine with Hornady 60gr. Critical Defense loads and Speer 60gr. Gold Dot Hollow Points. I was not able to get my Labradar to consistently record velocities - I think due to lack of experience with the unit. Both loads functioned perfectly. The Speer loads are snappier and had more recoil. Neither load had uncomfortable recoil, especially as compared to my titanium cylinder S&W 337 loaded with +p or +p+ ammo - that little gun is brutal.
I shot the gun using one hand at targets representing a torso at distances between three yards and seven yards. I found that I was able to put all of the rounds into a torso out to seven yards by “point shooting.” The closer I was, the more centered the hits.
My little Seecamp, loaded with the Speer GDHP ammo, has earned a place among my concealed carry arms. It is not always the primary, but it is quite often along when I leave the house.

[tallball]

I would take 32acp over 22lr every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

22lr is for shooting squirrels

I won't even carry 32acp for SD, but at least it was created with SD in mind.

380 is as low as I'll go, and I much prefer 38 special or something larger

[1MoreFord]

I have both a NAA .22 and a .32 Seecamp.

The Seecamp is always carried before the NAA.

[Metric]

It makes precious little difference to me, as long as both are reliable and the bullet is good for a foot or so of penetration. Obviously there is more opportunity to buy undesirable ammo in .22LR, so proper selection takes more care.

The Israelis were famous for killing AK-wielding terrorists with their Beretta 22's. It's amazing how effective any weapon can be if you are committed to putting the bullets exactly where they need to go.

Yes, the .32 has a slight theoretical advantage, but the overwhelming factor in the equation is how well you can place the bullets.

Actual shooting stats bear this out -- it's hard to see much difference between any of the common handgun calibers. There is some, but it's not as obvious as you would think: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alte...stopping-power

[Aguila Blanca]

While I think it's unfortunate that someone resurrected a twenty year old thread, I held out hope that the discussion might go in the direction intended by the perpetrator of the resurrection. So far, there has been a lot of the typical caliber war opinionating, but a complete lack of any useful information.

Unless someone posts some actual data, such as comparative testing results and/or comparative photos of .22 and .32 shot into ballistics gel, this discussion is going to be reinterred.

[jimku]

I would not advise either for primary carry.
That said, I feel quite comfortable with just my Beretta 21A for last-ditch up close and personal self-defense. I have NEVER had a 22 rimfire fail to fire on the 2nd strike (and VERY few fail on the 1st strike) and the 21A affords a 2nd strike simply by pulling the trigger again. I have no doubt AT ALL that I can put 9 rounds in a perp's forehead at 7 yards with my 21A in under 2 seconds and I have no doubt AT ALL that he would drop like a sack of wet manure. My little Beretta lives in the right-hand pocket of my blue jeans in a pocket holster. It is always there. The only time I don't have it is if I don't have my pants on.

[jimku]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Unless someone posts some actual data, such as comparative testing results and/or comparative photos of .22 and .32 shot into ballistics gel, this discussion is going to be reinterred.

Do just a little research into how cattle have been routinely dispatched in slaughter houses. One shot to the top of the head with a stubby little .22. I was raised on a cattle ranch where we butchered our own beef. I have personally done exactly that more times than I can count ... both top of the head and front between the eyes. Every time they dropped like a rock. That is all the "empiricle data" I need. A cow's scull is MUCH heavier, thicker and tougher than any man's skull. Shoot some perp in the head at close range with a .22 and he will be trying to talk St. Peter into letting him in. Ballistic gel doesn't tell me a thing. I don't know about the 32, for all I know it might bounce off. But there is no doubt whatsoever about the close-range lethality of a .22 in my non-military mind.

According to this video the .32 penetrates better than the .22 ... so against a man's head at close range both would be lethal.
https://youtu.be/gFReDEVvosc

[jar]

Both 22 and 32acp have a long history of being calibers folk could bet their lives on.

[Scorch]

Just a generalization, but in general
* 25ACP has about the same energy as a 22LR
* 32 has twice the energy of a 22LR
* 380 has about 3X the energy of a 22LR
* 9X19 has about 4X the energy of a 22LR

In years past, the decision of which to carry had to do with the size of the pistol, but there are 9mms on the market today that are smaller than 32s a few decades ago. So the decision has become more complicated. How much recoil can you tolerate? How much weight do you want to put in your pocket? Rimfire cartridge or centerfire? And so on.

Myself. I can do math. That doesn't mean that bigger is always better, but I am in the bigger school. I used to carry a 32 ACP Walther PPK as a pocket gun years ago, so I have no problem with the smaller guns.

[Aguila Blanca]

Another reminder: This thread is about " .22 LR vs. 32 ACP for Self-Defense."

Please stay on topic. THIS discussion is not about .380 ACP, it is not about 9mm, it is not about hunting rifles of any caliber. The OP asked for comparisons of .22LR vs. .32 ACP.

[seanc]

Great points brought up by Scorch. The only .22LR pistols I would approach trusting for SD are not as compact as many of the reliable, quality, .32ACP pistols.

Centerfire vs. rimfire is the big wedge issue here. Centerfire wins the reliability test hands down. 100+ years of cartridge improvements in both calibers hasn't really changed that difference.

If you're comparing these 2 rounds, you've already made your decision on how much recoil you want/can work with and these are certainly comparable in that respect. It then comes down to what's going to go boom every time you pull the trigger.

[raimius]

Muzzle energy, momentum, and diameter are all important factors in terminal ballistics. .32ACP beats .22LR in all three of those. As to which is better, it is not really a debate. If you want to argue about .22LR being good enough, have at it, but terminal ballistics favors the .32ACP.

Jimku, please go get some training and education on self-defense laws and tactics. Your previous posts show several glaring falsehoods in legal standards and tactics.

[CDW4ME]

Lucky Gunner testing of 22 lr and 32 acp:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/poc...-test-results/

Peruse those results for a load that penetrates 12'' and consistently expands, good luck.

I'd prefer to not bet my life on either, and don't / won't.

[JERRYS.]

many gel tests out there from mini guns in each caliber so you can make a comparable study. FMJ is the way to go in small caliber guns, especially with short bbls.