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Old June 19, 2020, 10:26 AM   #26
higgite
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Ewa Thoughts, your last post (#25) referred to using fired case volume for the 185 gr, .45 ACP example. QL advises using the sized volume for cartridges having less than 30,000 PSI max chamber pressure. Does GRT not agree? If not, why not?
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Old June 19, 2020, 11:49 AM   #27
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Off the wall results.

I took the 185 gr, charge from Shooting Times (6.1 grs.) and using the measurements from some Win 45 ACP cases fired in my Para 45/14, I came up with a case length of .891", H2O volume of 27.8 Grs, and used an overall cartridge of 1.24". I then took your submitted Berry's 185 bullet (flat based dimensions) and placed it in my GRT simulation. I then adjusted the Initial Pressure (IP) using the Yellow Star wizard to Pistol and lead (as plated bullets act more like lead than hard ball). That made the IP 1160 psi. I set the Gas Seal at Soft Lead. I got a simulated velocity of 935 fps and peak pressure of 13584 psi. Subtracting the Shooting Times velocity from the GRT sim. velocity (935 - 812) = 123 fps difference, and dividing the difference by 812 shows a 15% difference.

I then looked at the picture of the bullet base on Shooting Times and measured the approximate hollow base dimensions. This was a guess, but I cam up with L = .3, A = .296, and B = .2". This is very rough, you may want to drop your actual measurements here.

Adding those hollow base measurements into the simulation produced a velocity of 838 fps, and a pressure of 10617 psi. So taking the Shooting Times velocity of 812 fps and subtracting that from the GRT sim. of 838 fps, I get a difference of 26 fps. Dividing (from your view point) 26/812, I get an difference of 3.2%.

Inspection of the effect of the hollow base dimensions on the simulation is not minimal, it is 935 - 835 = 100/835 = 11.9%. 11.9%/15% = .79, or 79% of the difference.

So now you may understand that the details can severely affect the outcome of the simulation. At least for this combination of components no warning of high or over pressure were displayed. You may also understand that comparing published data to any other published data is very difficult because the firearms and loading techniques vary so much. It much better to question results from your own fired results. I am sure that you have found differences in your fired loads as compared to published load manuals. That is at least comparing one party to another, not to a third party that can not speak for itself.
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Old June 19, 2020, 11:53 AM   #28
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Higgite
The GRT simulation is not a copy of QL. GRT bases its calculations on the calculated final chamber volume as the case as expanded to fill the chamber. If the case did not expand, then the correct volume would be the case as sized. I will double check with Gordon on this however, to be sure I have not answered incorrectly.

Last edited by Ewa Thoughts; June 19, 2020 at 11:55 AM. Reason: Point to questioner
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Old June 19, 2020, 12:09 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewa Thoughts
I hope you can see that the data provided was sparce, in that it did not include vital elements like bullet length and construction, cartridge case measurements including case length and fired case volume. Without those elements, and a copy of your .grtload file, we have no ability to compare one to the other. Additionally, no actual user fired data corroborated the magazine information. I would be happy to process you questions if you can provide the proper information. You can send the required data to my GRT email address ([email protected]), or join the GRT Discord server where we can drop files and data directly when asking for help in figuring things out.
I didn't provide those data because I am not the author of the article. I sent Gordon a link to the article, and a copy of it. Obviously, I can't provide data that I don't have, but the fact that a published author in a respected mainstream publication had results that differ from GRT by as much as 37% speaks for itself.

As a writer and editor, I completely disagree that what I wrote "begs for a reply." It doesn't. What it begs for is a revised version of GRT that will generate results closer to what the real world experiences.

Since this exchange has gone from my intention of offering some feedback in the hope of improving GRT to a urination contest, I have gone back and tried playing with various aspects. Fixing the hollow-base bullet by inputting the dimensions of the cavity made a negligible difference. Just a few minutes ago I played with the initial pressure. Taking that all the way down to 500 psi (which is rather unrealistic) still left the velocities for the 185-grain bullet load about 100 to 150 fps faster than what the article reported as real world results.

This seems to suggest that the error is generated by something in the powder data, and that's way over my pay grade.

I have given you what I can. I obviously can't provide data that I don't have, and which I stated in my e-mail to Gordon that I don't have. Your continued harping on that appears more and more to be a defensive tactic rather than a sincere effort to foster a cooperative exchange.
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Old June 19, 2020, 12:21 PM   #30
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Final

Since we are not able to communicate in a positive manner, I will discontinue any post here. I have tried to help, requesting a copy of your GRT .grtload file so I could vet the problem you are experiencing. However, all I get is I cannot give you any data.

Sorry I tried to help.
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Old June 20, 2020, 12:22 AM   #31
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Sigh... I’m afraid we may have just tarred, feathered, and ran off an opportunity to have some constructive input with GRT. It is a FREE tool. FREE. And, more importantly, still developing and willing to take inputs from users to help refine data. I see potential for great value in that. I’ve personally observed it to be in the ballpark of velocity (can’t speak to pressure because I can’t measure it) on a few known loads, plus their results in most common situations seem to jive with loads listed in published data. The load that is way off is of the same sort that has already been identified to have similar large variances in Quickload, which is an excellent product but is not free and does not utilize user data to refine the model (to my knowledge).

I guess what I’m trying to say is “lighten up a little” and give them half a chance.
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Old June 20, 2020, 01:46 AM   #32
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It is indeed free and pretty good. I appreciate it, and continue to use and support it. It could be even better without this episode though.

-TL

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Old June 20, 2020, 02:09 PM   #33
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One last thought:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewa Thoughts
I took the 185 gr, charge from Shooting Times (6.1 grs.) and using the measurements from some Win 45 ACP cases fired in my Para 45/14, I came up with a case length of .891", H2O volume of 27.8 Grs, and used an overall cartridge of 1.24". I then took your submitted Berry's 185 bullet (flat based dimensions) and placed it in my GRT simulation. I then adjusted the Initial Pressure (IP) using the Yellow Star wizard to Pistol and lead (as plated bullets act more like lead than hard ball). That made the IP 1160 psi. I set the Gas Seal at Soft Lead. I got a simulated velocity of 935 fps and peak pressure of 13584 psi. Subtracting the Shooting Times velocity from the GRT sim. velocity (935 - 812) = 123 fps difference, and dividing the difference by 812 shows a 15% difference.
This is counter to what the GRT manual calls for. On page 32 of the manual, where the entry for gas seal/friction is discussed, it says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRT Manual
Solid Lead for projectiles which consist completely of soft lead. For such with polymer coating and/or thin, electrically applied copper layer or of hard lead choose "standard".
Berry's bullets are electroplated. Consequently, when I entered Berry's bullets into the bullet database, I entered them as "Standard." Ewa Thoughts is correct -- when I changed that to "Solid lead" the error was reduced. But, according to the documentation, that's going off the reservation. There's no way a user could know that you need to go counter to the documentation to shift the results closer to real world results.

In fact, when you use the Yellow Star wizard, it sets the gas seal/friction entry to Standard for electroplated projectiles.
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Old June 20, 2020, 02:45 PM   #34
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Quote:
I’m afraid we may have just tarred, feathered, and ran off an opportunity to have some constructive input with GRT.
There's a link to their Discord server on the GRT main page.
If you wish to have meaningful discussion, that's probably the best place to do it.
You can have live interaction - whether via text or voice chat - and get through a topic or concept quickly and clearly, rather than dealing with the slow nature of discussions and misunderstandings on a forum.


Quote:
Quickload, which is an excellent product but is not free and does not utilize user data to refine the model (to my knowledge).
QL sort of does, but you have to be part of the team, be able to measure chamber pressure (relative or actual), record velocity, and have a large enough assortment of test barrels to create good data for a powder, across a variety of cartridges. ...Is my understanding.

QL wants to be as accurate as possible, by modeling with a small set of the best data reasonably obtainable.
GRT seems to be okay with modeling based on a large sample size and a "close enough" average.
Both approaches have their pros and cons.


Right now, my issue with data submissions for GRT is the open invitation to submit real world data, but then there are a ton of hidden requirements, limitations, and exceptions.

For starters, there is the requirement for the data to be "2x2x2x5." That is:
2 cartridges (of different caliber)
2 bullet weights (per cartridge)
2 charge weights. (Min and Max)
5 rounds of each combination.

That works out to 20 rounds per cartridge, and 40 rounds total.

And, from discussions that I've seen in the discord server, they don't really want your data unless the charge weights are starting charge and max charge, and velocities were recorded with a Magnetospeed or Labradar.

So, you're basically just recreating published data, while dumping components into the dirt, and your data is "suspect" unless you shoot it over a Magnetospeed or Labradar.

They also don't want data from revolvers. Because GRT's model automatically reduces 20-40% of the velocity for firearms with "vents or cylinder gaps", depending upon cartridge and pressure, they don't want neutered (revolver) data to begin with. (This is from Gordon, himself.)

They also get picky about barrel length. For example, Gordon has stated that he doesn't want data for 700X, 800X, and "some other very fast propellants" unless testing was done in barrels at least 8" in length, with a preference for 14".

And, then there are the exceptions to the exceptions, that are, yet again, not listed or talked about anywhere.
For example: A user on their discord server asked if he could submit mid-range .300 AAC Blackout data from a bolt action rifle (since locked breech is what they want) to "fill in the gaps" and provide more data for the model.

The response was that his data would not be useful, since the GRT model for .300 AAC would be aimed at gas-operated firearms (understandably). And then Charlie unceremoniously directed him to create his own powder file for "nonstandard use" by using techniques in the GRT Optimal Barrel Time video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxDJVROdyxc


"We want your data!"

"Wait... That's not good enough, that's the wrong gun, you didn't fire enough rounds, your equipment was inferior. Oh, and this powder was on the secret list of special powders that have special test requirements that we never talked about or published anywhere. Also, again, your gun was wrong ... but the other, other wrong."
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Old June 21, 2020, 01:44 PM   #35
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I tried matching QuickLOAD's 231 model to pressure and velocity data on Hodgdon's site for a jacketed bullet by changing the powder burn rate to change velocity and changing the start pressure (aka, initial pressure) to change peak pressure without much effect on velocity. Since QL allows start pressure to be changed continuously above 145 psi rather than just allowing fixed category numbers by the bullet construction, these two factors may be fine-tuned switched back and forth to get a match. I was at first surprised to find the start pressure had to go to over 8000 psi to get a match, but then remembered something I've posted repeatedly was at play:

In pistol cartridges with small powder spaces, it is not uncommon for the primer to unseat the bullet before the powder burn gets completely underway. I expect this was happening to Hodgdon during their tests. The amount of jump to the throat then effectively expands the powder space before the pressure has built much, and completing the initial burning stage (until the bullet is engraved) in that larger volume may well explain the big velocity difference. I still had some difference, but more like 30 fps over for the lower loads and slightly under for the top load. So I am thinking a jump in powder space probably explains a good portion of the velocity difference.

I made similar changes in GRT and got the velocities down, though not all the way. I do wish the start pressure could be varied directly in value and not just by the construction category (unless I am just missing the method of doing that).
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Old June 23, 2020, 01:44 PM   #36
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Quote:
For example, I always thought the term "Ja Ja' meant "Yes Yes", but in Berlin it means something like "Kiss my !@##".
I did find this amusing. It's the usual problem literal translation of the words and what the speaker actually means.

And, just for what its worth, if an American tells you "yeah, yeah" or "yeah, right..." he usually means the same thing that Berliner does. (kiss my …..)

though that is not the literal translation of those words...

I found the discussion somewhat interesting, in general, but not anything important to me as I don't use any computer simulations, only real world results.

The discussion does prove that GIGO is still a valid thing, probably always will be. Garbage In, Garbage out. IF your data isn't exactlty what the program is built to "see" your results won't be, either.
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Old June 23, 2020, 07:08 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclenick
I made similar changes in GRT and got the velocities down, though not all the way. I do wish the start pressure could be varied directly in value and not just by the construction category (unless I am just missing the method of doing that).
Using the simplified interface, you can change the starting pressure to any value you wish just by typing it into that field on the screen where you enter all the load data. Ignore the gold star, and type in a value.
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Old June 26, 2020, 10:50 PM   #38
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I've been following the discussions on GRT discord. Thought a minor update was in order.

Apparently, GRT just absolutely cannot compensate for anything outside of the pressure window the powder model was intended for.
This is one of several replies over the last week, in regards to people posting real world velocities that were more than 10% different than GRT's predictions, even with good data.

In this case, GRT predicted 2,101 fps, while recorded velocity averaged 1,803, for 7.5x55 Swiss GP90/03.

Response from Charlie:
Quote:
Looks like the simulations over estimated the final results you experienced. That would be fairly normal as the pressures involved, and the fill ratio, places any propellant used into a completely different class than when the same propellant is used at, what today is normal, pressures (40000 to 60000 psi). For GP90/23 a special powder model would have to be developed to compensate for the burn speed differences. That does not mean you can not get good results, just high pressure models will not work for low pressure firearms.
To be fair, QL predicted 2,082 fps. But, the powder used is unknown.
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Old June 27, 2020, 12:57 PM   #39
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We have seen this in super light loads. It is quite alright for me. Software models always have limits. Good thing is the sim tends to be on the conservative side.

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Old June 27, 2020, 02:22 PM   #40
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Test fired another load of 7mm Mauser yesterday.

Bullet: Sierra #1950 170gr

Powder: 31.8gr IMR8208XBR

Load ratio: 65%<70%, a light load.

GRT sim muzzle velocity: 2235fps

Labradar muzzle velocity: 2163fps

# of shots: 9

So GRT is off by about 3%. Not bad at all.

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PS. GRT indicates that the powder doesn't get 100% burnt. So there is unburnt powder coming out of muzzle.

Last edited by tangolima; June 27, 2020 at 02:31 PM.
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Old June 27, 2020, 02:46 PM   #41
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Got GRT Working Pretty Well

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca
Using the simplified interface, you can change the starting pressure to any value you wish just by typing it into that field on the screen where you enter all the load data. Ignore the gold star, and type in a value.
I discovered it is the same in the Advanced Interface. It is just that as the way the load window comes up after installing the program, the bottom of the bullet window is cut off by the top of the charge window. When I manually pulled the top of the charge window down, the full bullet window appeared and remains that way after exiting and restarting.

That window discovery leads to my second discovery, which is one of the differences between QuickLOAD and GRT: The drop-down menu that selects the gas sealing and bore friction DOES NOT affect the initial pressure (start pressure) as I had assumed they did. In QuickLOAD's model, bore friction cannot exceed start pressure. This is not very realistic, particularly in rifles, for which friction peaks when pressure peaks due to all the acceleration g-forces tending to upset the bullet outward harder against the bore. So friction actually is a function of pressure that is in addition to the start pressure friction to engrave the bullet. You can, however, compensate for gas sealing in QL by raising the start pressure. Its model for long barrel friction, which occurs after the pressure peaks, is then pretty good, and pressure-induced friction can be modeled by adding a few percentage points to the bullet weight. But GRT appears to keep all that separate and seems to have (I need to evaluate this more) a better friction model than QuickLOAD that keeps them independent variables.

Once I found the start pressure was independent of the gas sealing model, a whole new range of possibilities opened up.

Finally, going back to post #1, the 230-grain load with 5.3 grains of 231/HP38 was reported in the Shooting Times Magazine article to have a velocity of 724 fps, and that number seemed to match what Aguila Blanca had measured. If I had just thought back to personal experience, that would have seemed low. So, when in doubt, get a second opinion. I looked up Hodgdon's data for the same weight bullet in their 5" test barrel, and there 5.3 grains of W231/HP38 is listed as a maximum load and they report 834 fps and 832 fps for lead and jacketed bullets, respectively. That's 110 fps faster than the Shooting Times number and Aguila Blanca's similar numbers. That difference accounts for most of the apparent error first seen in the GRT numbers. It has to be born in mind that the QuickLOAD and GRT models both, unless you change them, assume test barrel-like dimensions, which are minimum in chamber size. Real chambers can be a LOT sloppier, as you can see from the slide breech face to barrel extension gap in a lot of production 45 Auto guns. When you include the tendency to see a lot of primers unseating bullets to increase the powder space, I think the discrepancies are pretty well explained.

In GRT I put a lead bullet using the physical dimensions of the Sierra Match 230-grain RN FMJ bullet by setting the gas sealing and barrel friction to soft lead. I lowered the start pressure to 1160 psi. I lowered the default case capacity from 27.8 grains H₂O to 26.0 grains, which matches my measurements of unfired 45 Auto brass because I think QuickLOAD is correct that at low pressures where the cases are not pinned hard against the chamber wall you do not see so much expansion of the brass at the pressure peak. I gave it 5.3 grains of 231 without altering the model. I gave it a 5" barrel to match the Hodgdon test barrel. I gave it a 1.200" COL to match Hodgdon's COL. The result is as follows:

Code:
GRT
Pressure          Velocity
96.5% MAP         829.6 fps
20270 psi/17374 CUP
 
Hodgdon
Pressure          Velocity
93.9% MAP         834 fps
19716 psi/16900 CUP

*psi/CUP ratio based on SAAMI MAPS ratio for the cartridge
which are 21,000 psi/18,0000 CUP.
That's a pretty darn close match for a computer model, I think.

Based on this, the 6.1 grain loads from the ST article would run about 26,145 psi in the Hodgdon test gun, so I added the load warning to the first post, as that's about 14% above the SAAMI +P MAP of 23,000 psi for 45 Auto. Not yet to the proof load range (31,000 to 33,000 psi), but enough to beat up a gun if you fired it much.
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