The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Bolt, Lever, and Pump Action

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 1, 2020, 10:09 PM   #26
ms6852
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,219
I have a lot of high magnification scopes but most of them are mounted on my 22lr rifles. The highest mag scope I own is a 18X. I have them on my 22's because I love shooting them at 200 yards. On my hunting scopes, because of where I hunt I have found that I've never have used more than 7X because of mirage. So if you live in an area where you don't have very hot temperatures like Texas than you could possibly benefit from high magnifications scopes at longer distances. I have shot long distance with my rifle at 1000 yards but with the scope I own I had to dial down to 8X for good picture.

Now most people want to shoot 1000 yards to a mile with a cheap scope and sadly it won't happen. If you do buy a more expensive scope my experience has shown starting out at $800 minimum, they have better optics than the $500 scopes and maintain their brightness better at higher magnification. But in all honesty it is an individual perception and depending on your age and your vision you could get away with a lesser priced scope but eventually if you are lucky like many of us you will get older and your eyes will age and you will wish you had saved enough to buy the higher priced scope as it will be utilized always.
__________________
ONLY TWO DEFINING FORCES HAVE GIVEN UP THEIR LIVES FOR YOU. ONE IS JESUS CHRIST FOR YOUR SOUL AND THE OTHER IS THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOUR FREEDOM.
ms6852 is offline  
Old July 2, 2020, 12:30 AM   #27
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 7,433
Quote:
if you are lucky like many of us you will get older and your eyes will age and you will wish you had saved enough to buy the higher priced scope as it will be utilized always.
__________________
Oldfartdom sucks.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old July 2, 2020, 02:53 AM   #28
std7mag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2013
Location: Central Taxylvania..
Posts: 3,070
Watch it there, sonny!! (Cane smack)

As Reynolds357 said, a lot depends on mirage!
A lot of the people i shoot with are using 10-50 power scopes.
Of all the people at my local matches, only one person is using a Vortex. And that's a Golden Eagle.
Everyone else is either using Nightforce or Sightron.

While doing a search of equipment for King of 2 Miles, i found most teams are running up to 25 power. Again the mirage gets to where the higher magnification doesn't help.

But nothing says you have to use the highest magnification on the scope!
Personally, i'd go with a Sightron SIII, or SV if you can afford one.

Psst, 10% off Sightron scopes right now!
__________________
When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!!
std7mag is offline  
Old July 2, 2020, 03:59 AM   #29
Bfglowkey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2018
Posts: 270
Sightrons S3 line is impressive for the coin as std7mag was alluding to. The only reason I do not run more of them is unimpressive to me reticle options. I don't mind the KISS mentality but I am not a fan of MILDOT reticles on a Precision rifle at long range. Again...that's me and my personal issue. They do have options I do find good but much harder to find and rarely on sale ( Midways Sightron sale excludes any of the models with the reticle options I would prefer)
I will say I just visited Cabela's and had not checked out their stock of scopes in a while and noticed Crimson Trace offerings. Not too shabby.
Bfglowkey is offline  
Old July 2, 2020, 05:45 AM   #30
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 7,433
Quote:
Watch it there, sonny!! (Cane smack)
I'm north of 60--so my original warranty is running out.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old July 2, 2020, 06:32 AM   #31
Nathan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2001
Posts: 5,013
I can still see, I think. If I were running a benchrest rig, I would look into the high magnification optics. For my long range hunting rig 5-25x is a nice scope. Long shots using the reticle can be made from 12x - 25x.

My concern in a 10-50 is that the ffp reticle would be unusable below 30x and mirage so tough it holds me to 20x.
Nathan is offline  
Old July 2, 2020, 06:44 AM   #32
old roper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2007
Posts: 1,976
I'm posting result from last year IBS 1000yd match and toward bottom is what rifles used which includes scopes.

https://internationalbenchrest.com/a...0%20081019.pdf
__________________
Semper Fi
Vietnam 1965
VFW Life member
NRA Life Member
old roper is offline  
Old July 2, 2020, 02:06 PM   #33
std7mag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2013
Location: Central Taxylvania..
Posts: 3,070
Egads!!
Stag is older than me?

__________________
When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!!
std7mag is offline  
Old July 2, 2020, 04:29 PM   #34
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 7,433
Quote:
Egads!!
Stag is older than me?
A little respect for your elders, please.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old July 2, 2020, 06:23 PM   #35
10-96
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 19, 2005
Location: Tx Panhandle Territory
Posts: 3,992
Swifty- Don't get rid of the Leupold. I don't know if anyone's mentioned it yet or not, but they have a pretty shiney warranty program. Call them up and see what they say about fixing it or replacing it. You may get a brand new or brand new-like scope for future use just for the shipping cost.
__________________
Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day)

I'm going to use the words "clip" and "Long Colt" every chance I get. It grinds my gears to see new members attacked when we all know dang good and well what's being refered to.
10-96 is offline  
Old July 3, 2020, 02:07 AM   #36
std7mag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2013
Location: Central Taxylvania..
Posts: 3,070
Heck Stag, i'm usually the elder.
All my supervisors at work are in their early to mid 20s.

Wholly agree with 10-96!
Call Leupold!
__________________
When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!!
std7mag is offline  
Old July 3, 2020, 08:25 AM   #37
Swifty Morgan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2018
Location: FL
Posts: 432
Thanks for the tip on the Leupold. Having seen what Mil-dot reticles can do, I'm not sure a 20x scope with a much simpler design is a great tool. Don't know much about it.

It worked fine for hitting silhouettes with a spotter, but silhouettes are pretty big.

Fixed is better than not fixed, though.
__________________
Humor-deafness is very real. Help fund research today.
Swifty Morgan is offline  
Old July 3, 2020, 10:27 AM   #38
Ricklin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2008
Location: SW Washington state
Posts: 1,588
The only thing better than properly fixed?

Properly fixed for free, enjoy that warranty.
__________________
ricklin
Freedom is not free
Ricklin is offline  
Old July 3, 2020, 04:39 PM   #39
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 7,985
New thread on scope image quality.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...81#post6805681

Last edited by Bart B.; July 3, 2020 at 04:47 PM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old July 3, 2020, 04:58 PM   #40
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 7,433
Quote:
All my supervisors at work are in their early to mid 20s.
That must REALLY suck--tries my patience enough sometimes just to talk to them on the phone--it's like talking to children who often think old people are stupid and senile.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!

Last edited by stagpanther; July 4, 2020 at 12:10 AM.
stagpanther is offline  
Old July 4, 2020, 07:43 AM   #41
jetinteriorguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2013
Posts: 1,395
Man if these kids are even half as dumb as I was in my early 20’s having a supervisor that age would drive me insane. Even a dumb old man is twice as smart as a smart young man, no substitute for experience in the real world.
jetinteriorguy is offline  
Old July 5, 2020, 09:39 AM   #42
taylorce1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 7,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swifty Morgan
Having seen what Mil-dot reticles can do, I'm not sure a 20x scope with a much simpler design is a great tool.

It worked fine for hitting silhouettes with a spotter, but silhouettes are pretty big.

Fixed is better than not fixed, though.
A Mild Dot reticle is a far simpler reticle than your Varmint Hunter reticle. There are a lot of Milling reticles out there but they aren't the same as the Mil Dot reticle, a popular one is a HORUS reticle it is a milling reticle but not a Mil Dot. You can use either a MOA or Milling type reticle basically the same way as long as you understand how to use them. A MOA reticle like the NF MOAR reticle style is far more useful IMO than your VH reticle, and it works basically the same as a Milling reticle.

I hate to tell you that you can't use most reticles long range without a spotter anyway. The issue you have using one by yourself is you can't make corretctions without seeing the bullet impact. With some of the smaller cartridges you can do this, but there are some cartridges that make this near impossible even with heavy rifles and running a brake or suppressor. The spotter isn't affected by recoil or a narrow field of view like most shooters are.

Fixed is not necessarily better than a variable scope. Fixed has fewer moving parts to eventually break, and is cheaper to build a reliable scope. That doesn't mean you can't have a great variable scope with very accurate and repeatable adjustments. They just aren't cheap to manufacture, and in most cases you do get what you're willing to pay for when it comes to variable optics for long range shooting. If you're going to go with a variable scope you need to be prepared to spend $1,500+ on optics to get features most people want.
__________________
NRA Life Member
taylorce1 is offline  
Old July 5, 2020, 10:40 AM   #43
std7mag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2013
Location: Central Taxylvania..
Posts: 3,070
Man! We seriously need a "like button" on this forum!

BartB is absolutely correct (in my oppinion).

One issue with fixed power scopes also is what power to get.
8X, or 10X may leave you wanting more at distance. Plus it's harder (neigh on impossible) to see mirage at that low of a power.

24X, 38X, or even 42X will let you see the mirage. But that's about all on bad days.

Your better off paying the money for good glass, and a scope that tracks reliably than fancy reticles!
And with the cost coming down on reliable rangefinders, ranging with a reticle has become less important. Good skill to know, yes. But are you only going to use the reticle for ranging?
__________________
When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!!

Last edited by std7mag; July 5, 2020 at 11:03 AM.
std7mag is offline  
Old July 5, 2020, 12:38 PM   #44
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 7,985
Regarding
Quote:
Fixed is not necessarily better than a variable scope. Fixed has fewer moving parts to eventually break, and is cheaper to build a reliable scope.
Mount any variable scope on an optical collimator then change the power back and forth while the reticle moves about the reference in the letter C, S or figure 8 patterns the scope reticle makes because of mechanical tolerances in lens mounts. One to two thirds MOA error is common.

This is also the best way to "box" a scope because it eliminates rifle, ammo and human variables. Box it using 2 clicks each direction and you'll be surprised.

Last edited by Bart B.; July 5, 2020 at 01:17 PM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old July 5, 2020, 12:39 PM   #45
recoil junky
Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2014
Location: TheElkHuntingCapitol CraigCO
Posts: 33
I recently put a 6-24X50 30 mm tube Bushnell Nitro on my 700VLS .243 varmint rig. I find it just as clear as my Leoupolds and much clearer than the Vortex Viper of the same "caliber". It tracks well but with the chosen reticle I don't need to be fiddling with adjustments and a prairie dog, as a rule, doesn't often sit and wait for such foolishness anyways.

A Red Bull can sized rodent has a short attention span, much shorter than a 1000 yard clanger target, so a hit at 500 yards is quite a feat across a grassy expanse of NW Colorado/SW Wyoming on a 95° day with a stiff cross wind.

Sometimes on further and closer inspection, that prairie dog turns out to be a cow pat and you did hit it twice it's just that the heat wave/mirage makes it appear to be moving . . . . .

RJ
recoil junky is offline  
Old July 5, 2020, 04:50 PM   #46
Swifty Morgan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2018
Location: FL
Posts: 432
Quote:
A Mild Dot reticle is a far simpler reticle than your Varmint Hunter reticle. There are a lot of Milling reticles out there but they aren't the same as the Mil Dot reticle, a popular one is a HORUS reticle it is a milling reticle but not a Mil Dot. You can use either a MOA or Milling type reticle basically the same way as long as you understand how to use them. A MOA reticle like the NF MOAR reticle style is far more useful IMO than your VH reticle, and it works basically the same as a Milling reticle.
I read Leupold's explanation of my reticle, and even after they explained it, it still didn't look too good.

It says, "Provides aiming points out to 500 or 600 yards (ammunition dependent)." It sounds like you have to shoot up a bunch of ammunition in order to find out what the aiming points mean for your latest box of cartridges. Then I guess you have to remember exactly where, between the marks, your bullet will land. Maybe I'm wrong.

Quote:
I hate to tell you that you can't use most reticles long range without a spotter anyway. The issue you have using one by yourself is you can't make corretctions without seeing the bullet impact.
I'm all done with .308 for a while. After every shot, the crosshairs were aimed at the next county. I am hoping I can see something with 6.5 CM, or at least with .223 or .204. I am planning to join a club with a long range, so hopefully, there will be opportunities to connect with spotters.

Quote:
Fixed is not necessarily better than a variable scope.
By "fixed," I meant, "repaired."

Quote:
If you're going to go with a variable scope you need to be prepared to spend $1,500+ on optics to get features most people want.
I stuck a Primary Arms 4-14x on my AR-15, which is not a precision gun, and I will be putting a Viper 6-25x on the Ruger RPR. I don't expect the Viper to be my final solution, but I have tremendous confidence in the recommendation of the guy who taught me, and I'm sure it will allow me to shoot long enough to figure out what I like in long-range scopes.

A lot of the guys I shot with last weekend were using Nightforce scopes.
__________________
Humor-deafness is very real. Help fund research today.
Swifty Morgan is offline  
Old July 8, 2020, 03:51 PM   #47
taylorce1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 7,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swifty Morgan
It says, "Provides aiming points out to 500 or 600 yards (ammunition dependent)." It sounds like you have to shoot up a bunch of ammunition in order to find out what the aiming points mean for your latest box of cartridges. Then I guess you have to remember exactly where, between the marks, your bullet will land. Maybe I'm wrong.

I am hoping I can see something with 6.5 CM, or at least with .223 or .204.


By "fixed," I meant, "repaired."


I stuck a Primary Arms 4-14x on my AR-15, which is not a precision gun, and I will be putting a Viper 6-25x on the Ruger RPR. I don't expect the Viper to be my final solution, ....... I'm sure it will allow me to shoot long enough to figure out what I like in long-range scopes.

A lot of the guys I shot with last weekend were using Nightforce scopes.
You really should purchase a Chronograph, it'll save ammunition. Regardless of what type of scope you use you'll have to shot a lot of ammunition to confirm aiming points. If you are using factory ammunition you should buy your ammo by the case so it is all the same lot number. Every time you get a new batch of ammunition you'll have to reconfirm zero, and the rest of your dope. I hope your teacher taught you to use a note pad at that school that way you'll not have to remember anything, it'll all be written down in B&W.

You might be able to see your bullet impacts with the .223 and .204. However, unless they are custom built rifles with specialized twists they aren't great at long range. The 6.5 Creedmoor will be tougher but the RPR isn't exactly light and the muzzle brake might be good enough with practice you could possibly see bullet impacts.

I'm sorry, I misunderstood what you wrote. However, I was also responding to Bart B. to whom I respect his opinion very much. I just disagree in this case that fixed power optics are always better than variable. I believe that these new high end optics like NF, S&B, Khales, and .... perform every bit as good if not better than his old T20 target scope. If they weren't then the people competing with them wouldn't use them for very long.

I know nothing about the Vortex or Primary Arms scopes you purchased. I do know that a lot of talk on the long range forums state that any Vortex line below the Razor, say that the only good thing about them for long range shooting is the warranty. I do have some experience with the Viper lineup of hunting scopes, but I don't mess with the adjustments much once I find a load for them. I don't have an NF at the moment, but the only complaint I hear about them is the price.
__________________
NRA Life Member
taylorce1 is offline  
Old July 9, 2020, 06:20 AM   #48
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 7,433
I have about a half dozen fixed magnification scopes on rifles--divided into two "classes." First, there are the "old school" simple duplex reticle scopes on hunting and scout type rifles where I'm probably not going to take a shot beyond 100 to 200 yards. Great for eastern thick woods hunting. Then there are the tactical longer range SWFA's which I have in 12 to 16 x magnification. They are built like tanks and have one of the best reticles in the business available on any scope IMO. Their only weakness IMO is the glass itself isn't the sharpest or clearest; but at it's price point I think that shortcoming is tolerable.

I found a place that is still selling the scope Bart likes, and I would have been on it except for longer distance shooting I really like having some kind of fine subtensions in the reticle to adjust on the fly if I'm shooting past 200 yds.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old July 10, 2020, 11:33 AM   #49
kilotanker22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2012
Location: North Central, PA
Posts: 1,497
Personally I have no intention of ever buying anything with more than 18x magnification again. I wouldn't rule it out, but time and time again I find myself dialing my magnification back to either 12x or 18x. On multiple optics.

On a good hot day, or a cold day with snow on the ground. I have no trouble seeing Mirage at 24x through my Vortex Viper HST. Sometimes I still have to reduce to 12 power, because of the heat coming from the barrel.

If I was going to use a fixed power on a bolt gun, it would probably be a 12x of some sort. I believe that 12x is sufficient to engage man sized targets at 1000 yards pretty easily. If you were shooting small animals like a ground hog past 500 yards or so you might want more.

I think the reason that a lot of people like really high magnification is so they can spot their bullet holes in paper at several hundred yards. With my Vortex I can normally see my bullet holes at 300 yards on 18x. Depending on the color of the paper I am shooting at. If using the shootNsee targets, I can see the impacts at 600 yards with 18 power.
__________________
“We do not seek peace in order to be at war, but we go to war that we may have peace. Be peaceful, therefore, in warring, so that you may vanquish those whom you war against, and bring them to the prosperity of peace.
– St. Augustine
kilotanker22 is offline  
Old July 24, 2020, 12:21 AM   #50
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 7,433
It's funny how "magnification" isn't necessarily the same "size" across scopes; I have leupolds that at 3 x 9 show the field of view larger, closer and sharper than other scopes with higher magnification ratings.
__________________
If you’re ever hiking in the woods and you get lost, just look up and find the brightest star in the sky and you’ll know which way space is.
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10584 seconds with 10 queries