Defensive Cap and Ball - Page 2

gwpercle · September 6, 2018, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

Like home internet, YouTube is for entertainment only.
"...the self defense capabilities of cap and ball revolvers..." Date from the early to mid 19th Century. Worked then. No reason for 'em not to work now. Just a great deal more fiddling to make 'em and keep 'em working.
"...where modern smokeless guns cannot be legally obtained or utilized..." That does not make BP firearms any more legal. Despite then not being considered to be firearms in the U.S., that doesn't mean using one for CCW is legal.

I would just as soon get my cap and ball self defensive shooting information from Clint Eastwood , He puts on a good demonstration in "Pale Rider"

If memory serves me right James Butler Hickok defended himself with a brace of 1851 Navy Colts.

Some of the stuff posted on U-Tube , by so called experts, is not only wrong but dangerous . The things I watched on reloading were scary
Gary

Doc Hoy · September 6, 2018, 02:58 PM

I wonder if he would have stuck with the Navy Colts...

Centurion · September 7, 2018, 09:57 AM

I'm obtaining about 1000/1050 fps with Lee 200 grns conicals and 1350/1400 fps with 140 grns Hornady .454 balls from my Pietta Remington 1858 .44 with my homemade powder.
Hard kicking shots, the 200 grns being as powerful as a .45 acp +p for this bullet weight and the 140 grns almost a full house .357 Magnum but with a bigger caliber.

In both cases I feel this loads plenty of power for a defensive or hunting use. I'm loading as much powder as the cylinder can accept, then the bullet and my own made cow grease/olive oil lube.

Centurion · September 7, 2018, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centurion

I'm obtaining about 1000/1050 fps with Lee 200 grns conicals and 1350/1400 fps with 140 grns Hornady .454 balls from my Pietta Remington 1858 .44 with my homemade powder.
Hard kicking shots, the 200 grns being as powerful as a .45 acp +p for this bullet weight and the 140 grns almost a full house .357 Magnum but with a bigger caliber.

In both cases I feel this loads plenty of power for a defensive or hunting use. I'm loading as much powder as the cylinder can accept, then the bullet and my own made cow grease/olive oil lube.

Just a quick comment...of course those are maximum loads, that I know I can obtain and my revolver can stand, but are not the ones that I prefer...it is more pleasant to shot milder loads, of course...

rodwhaincamo · September 7, 2018, 10:40 AM

I am rather curious about your powder. Obviously it is quite energetic. What granulation is it?

Impressive numbers! I use 3F Olde Eynsford and Triple 7. I weighed my 30 grn charges and found Olde E weighs ~33 grns. Looking over chronographed results I figure I’m easily in standard .45 ACP performance and possibly just above it, which is why I weighed it as a fellow in Alaska with the same guns and powders has been sent some of my bullets for testing and said he would chronograph them too, but he has a small window in which to do so and has been busy.

Ben Dover · September 7, 2018, 10:44 AM

For SD, with black powder, I'll take a brace of .58 cal Dragoon pistols loaded with mini-balls.

rodwhaincamo · September 7, 2018, 11:35 AM

For muzzleloaders I’d prefer a brace of Howdahs in 20 ga. I’d have to see how effective they’d be with those short barrels and various buckshot to determine if a patched ball would be better.

Centurion · September 7, 2018, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodwhaincamo

I am rather curious about your powder. Obviously it is quite energetic. What granulation is it?

Impressive numbers! I use 3F Olde Eynsford and Triple 7. I weighed my 30 grn charges and found Olde E weighs ~33 grns. Looking over chronographed results I figure I’m easily in standard .45 ACP performance and possibly just above it, which is why I weighed it as a fellow in Alaska with the same guns and powders has been sent some of my bullets for testing and said he would chronograph them too, but he has a small window in which to do so and has been busy.

Somewhere in between a 3F and a 4F, with homemade willow charcoal, extremely fine milled in a coffee mill, then mixed in a ball mill with the sulfur and saltpeter for 6 hours.

After that I use to mix it with jelly alcohol, then I granulate it to 3F/4F when almost dry.

SIGSHR · September 7, 2018, 01:29 PM

A Walker is not a holster gun but that heavy frame absorbs a lot of recoil.
A cap and ball revolver was State of the Art in its day and a HUGE advance over the single shot.
Yes, Wild Bill was fond of his Navy Colts.

Centurion · September 7, 2018, 01:45 PM

https://youtu.be/rCxOgvbVVko

The shooting test of the LEE 200 grains bullet from my NMA at +1000 fps. You can clearly note the hard recoil from that load...

Remember it is a full size NMA with 8 in barrel that jumps in my hand as a 44 magnum...

bamaranger · September 24, 2018, 01:59 AM

Somewhere I have an article, maybe two, possibly in an old issue of Gun Digest or Guns and Ammo where a scribe (maybe Rick Hacker) tested a number of BP percussion revolvers, with ball and conical, for speed, accuracy and even in gel. I have not read the article(s) in a long time, but have posted of then before in these forums.

As I recall....
The Walker with a full charge is a powerhouse, but a behemoth as noted. The Dragoons were easier to wield, but the Colt and Rem .44 's seemed optimum. The .36's were a delight to shoot and handled well, but the performance was in the .380 acp range and not that impressive. The even shot a .31 Baby Dragoon and equated it to a .22lr.

Hawg · September 24, 2018, 03:42 AM

Quote:

No hunting with the ROA during muzzleloading season in Texas? Too bad. Is it single shot only? No double guns or swivel guns?

You cant hunt with any type of bp pistol during primitive weapons seasons in MS but during the second and third pw seasons you can use your AR 15 with 30 round mags on private land.

Rachen · November 10, 2018, 02:55 PM

I use an 8" barrel Pietta 1858 as my go to arm for both vehicle carry and shoulder holster under a jacket for camping and hiking trips. I have never had any issue with powder getting wet or contaminated after I started cutting off pieces from plastic hospital O2 nasal lines and using them to cover the capped nipples. No water has been able to get past the sheathing, never mention anywhere near the primer or propellant, and I have carried the old warhorse through rain, snow and floods.

One of the best things I love about caplock revolvers is the versatility of choosing loads and projectiles for them. Just like the cartridge revolvers that fire straight-walled cases, they can be tailored for a variety of different needs. Most of my shooting involves punching cardboard targets so light loads of 20 grains and swaged roundballs work perfectly. But for hunting and defense against dangerous game, when that old Remington is packed with 36 grains of Olde Eynsford and a 200 grain Buffalo conical, it will take down a fully grown feral hog with complete pass-through performance and a pretty impressive wound channel. Done that a few times enough to know what this old stallion can do. Shots through a chrony have clocked 1200fps with that load. That is almost .357 magnum levels of power. The sound is absolutely deafening also. Just like a howitzer.

I have absolutely no problem with trusting my safety to this old hunk of steel, because loaded and primed properly it delivers the same performance as a .45 LC levergun or SA cartridge handgun. Combine that with experience and decent marksmanship and you have a weapon that will serve you well in most kinds of defensive situations where lethal force is required. Even if some POS psycho with an AR-15 was pumping rounds into a crowd of innocent shoppers at a mall, if I can happen to place my ass behind something concealing like a car or dumpster, draw the Remington and fire one well aimed round, that POS is going down and not coming back up, and that is a most certain thing. No one, not even a raging psycho pumped up on uppers is going to absorb 450 foot pounds of impact on center mass or CNS and continue going. Not happening. Like the old swordfighter Musashi said "The difference between an armed man and a true warrior is that the warrior knows his weapon". Merely having a weapon does not prove anything when a life or death struggle is happening. Knowing your weapon and mastering the techniques of it's use is what will determine if you, your loved ones and the crowd of innocents around you will survive the encounter. The samurai sword may not be in regular use as a combat arm today but Musashi had the principles of it's use converted into a timeless tutorial of the psychology of combat, no matter what weapons may be used. That is the Book of Five Rings.

NavyVet1959 · April 20, 2019, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

The TX rule says that it must be an actual muzzleloader--i.e. literally loaded ONLY through the muzzle.

https://tpwd.texas.gov/regulations/o...ns-and-methods

"Muzzleloader: any firearm that is loaded only through the muzzle (as opposed to breech-loading firearms). A cap and ball firearm in which the powder and ball are loaded into a cylinder is not a muzzleloader. Muzzleloader deer seasons are restricted to muzzleloading firearms only."

Since a cap & ball revolver cylinder can be loaded directly without going through the muzzle it doesn't qualify.

As far as I can tell, there is no prohibition on multi-shot muzzleloaders as long as they are truly muzzleloaders.

I wonder what they would think about the Pietta Pepperbox since although a revolver, it does not have a barrel per se, just 6 really long cylinders that you load from the "muzzle" end. Not that it would be practical for anything that I hunt...

gwpercle · April 20, 2019, 04:29 PM

Armed with a brace of cap and ball revolvers , Remington or Colt , Army or Navy ,
I would not feel defenseless at all.
Maybe I watched too many westerns but a lot of men have died to percussion arms.
Plus I like the fact that I can mail order them ...delivered to my door , no forms , paperwork or permit required... In Louisiana at least .
Gary

Trum4n1208 · April 23, 2019, 09:31 AM

There was a while where I left my Uberti '51 Navy repro loaded at home as a backup pistol, and I was confident that it would work. Now, that role is filled by either an Uberti SAA repro in .45 Colt, or a S&W M1917 in .45 ACP - I've also had an Uberti Richards conversion repro in .44 Special for this role as well. Largely this is because all of those weapons have more stopping power & better reliability. If I had to go back to using the Navy, I would - it was a proven manstopper, if on the weaker end. Having said that, any of the other guns would be higher on my list.

Edited: added additional info to clear up any confusion re. the 1860 conversion repro.

rodwhaincamo · April 23, 2019, 11:18 AM

I’m curious how it is you have a conversion for a .44 Spl working in that 1860 Army. It seems the grooves on the various “.44 cal” repros run around .450-.454” and the lands no less than maybe .440”, which wouldn’t be conducive to working with a .429-.430” bullet.

Trum4n1208 · April 23, 2019, 12:41 PM

Quote:

I’m curious how it is you have a conversion for a .44 Spl working in that 1860 Army. It seems the grooves on the various “.44 cal” repros run around .450-.454” and the lands no less than maybe .440”, which wouldn’t be conducive to working with a .429-.430” bullet.

Sorry, to clarify, it's a factory made replica of the 1860 Richards conversion chambered in .44 special, not a conversion of a cap & ball revolver.

NavyVet1959 · April 23, 2019, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodwhaincamo

I’m curious how it is you have a conversion for a .44 Spl working in that 1860 Army. It seems the grooves on the various “.44 cal” repros run around .450-.454” and the lands no less than maybe .440”, which wouldn’t be conducive to working with a .429-.430” bullet.

Maybe one of these?

https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/ri...in-barrel.html

Schlitz 45 · April 23, 2019, 01:46 PM

If we devolve to cap & ball revolvers for self defense my choice would be a LeMatt-nine shots of 44 caliber through a rifled 6-3/4" barrel & 20 gauge shot from the 5-7/8" smooth bore barrel would be almost as good if not better than a brace of 6 shooters in a pinch, plus they're a classy looking weapon.

rodwhaincamo · April 24, 2019, 11:41 AM

I’ve read nothing but issues with the LeMat.

Stormson · April 24, 2019, 08:40 PM

Same here Bob. Though I admit to still wanting a brace of em LoL.

Arnt they limited to around 20grs in the cylinder though??? That wouldnt seem like a lot for real work...

rodwhaincamo · April 24, 2019, 11:18 PM

Howdy stranger!

From what I understand they hold about 5 grns less (~30 grns?) than a Remmy or Colt. Still not too bad if you use an energetic powder.

The cost is a bit much for a brace of them. And for the cost I think I’d prefer a Howdah 20ga.

Stormson · April 26, 2019, 12:29 AM

Of course, this is TOTAL fantasy... Being the po' boy that i am LoL... Hell a single La Mat is total fantasy for me.... Still..

I have often thought, where I so rich as to not know what to do with my money, the perfect set up would be...

Two drop holstered Le Mats... Two Howdahs backing them up, either directly behind somehow, or crossdrawed from the middle of the back.. Two Kukris also cross draw MOB.. and two of my beloved 1860 snubbies with birdheads in a dual shoulder holster...

LoL.. A total walking bad ass!!!

Of course.. What the hell I would actually DO with such a set up.. Outside of the zombie apocalypse.. I really have no Idea.. But MAn it'd be nice to say I HAVE it just the same!!! LoL

Anyway.. I could have sworn that Mike said in one of his vids that he could only pack around 20grs with a wad... Ill have to go back and check if I get the time...

Trum4n1208 · April 26, 2019, 09:20 AM

I had also heard that the modern LeMat could only fit 20 grains under the ball. Personally, I would avoid it if I had to use a cap & ball gun for self defense. They're great pointers but it has a beast of mainspring, if the one I've handled was any indication. To the point where cocking it one-handed, with that grip, isn't the easiest thing to do.

If we're indulging in fantasy, I'd say a pair of 1860 armies would do the job. They're reliable, resistant to fouling, good point shooters, and you can load them with conicals for better stopping power.

September 6, 2018, 02:58 PM	#27
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	If hickok had lived until 1912.... I wonder if he would have stuck with the Navy Colts... __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

September 7, 2018, 01:45 PM	#35
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	https://youtu.be/rCxOgvbVVko The shooting test of the LEE 200 grains bullet from my NMA at +1000 fps. You can clearly note the hard recoil from that load... Remember it is a full size NMA with 8 in barrel that jumps in my hand as a 44 magnum... Last edited by Centurion; September 7, 2018 at 07:11 PM.

September 24, 2018, 01:59 AM	#36
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,300	tests and comparison Somewhere I have an article, maybe two, possibly in an old issue of Gun Digest or Guns and Ammo where a scribe (maybe Rick Hacker) tested a number of BP percussion revolvers, with ball and conical, for speed, accuracy and even in gel. I have not read the article(s) in a long time, but have posted of then before in these forums. As I recall.... The Walker with a full charge is a powerhouse, but a behemoth as noted. The Dragoons were easier to wield, but the Colt and Rem .44 's seemed optimum. The .36's were a delight to shoot and handled well, but the performance was in the .380 acp range and not that impressive. The even shot a .31 Baby Dragoon and equated it to a .22lr.

April 23, 2019, 09:31 AM	#41
Trum4n1208 Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2013 Posts: 173	There was a while where I left my Uberti '51 Navy repro loaded at home as a backup pistol, and I was confident that it would work. Now, that role is filled by either an Uberti SAA repro in .45 Colt, or a S&W M1917 in .45 ACP - I've also had an Uberti Richards conversion repro in .44 Special for this role as well. Largely this is because all of those weapons have more stopping power & better reliability. If I had to go back to using the Navy, I would - it was a proven manstopper, if on the weaker end. Having said that, any of the other guns would be higher on my list. Edited: added additional info to clear up any confusion re. the 1860 conversion repro. Last edited by Trum4n1208; April 23, 2019 at 12:42 PM.

September 7, 2018, 09:57 AM	#28
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	I'm obtaining about 1000/1050 fps with Lee 200 grns conicals and 1350/1400 fps with 140 grns Hornady .454 balls from my Pietta Remington 1858 .44 with my homemade powder. Hard kicking shots, the 200 grns being as powerful as a .45 acp +p for this bullet weight and the 140 grns almost a full house .357 Magnum but with a bigger caliber. In both cases I feel this loads plenty of power for a defensive or hunting use. I'm loading as much powder as the cylinder can accept, then the bullet and my own made cow grease/olive oil lube.

September 7, 2018, 10:40 AM	#30
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	I am rather curious about your powder. Obviously it is quite energetic. What granulation is it? Impressive numbers! I use 3F Olde Eynsford and Triple 7. I weighed my 30 grn charges and found Olde E weighs ~33 grns. Looking over chronographed results I figure I’m easily in standard .45 ACP performance and possibly just above it, which is why I weighed it as a fellow in Alaska with the same guns and powders has been sent some of my bullets for testing and said he would chronograph them too, but he has a small window in which to do so and has been busy.

September 7, 2018, 11:35 AM	#32
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	For muzzleloaders I’d prefer a brace of Howdahs in 20 ga. I’d have to see how effective they’d be with those short barrels and various buckshot to determine if a patched ball would be better.

September 7, 2018, 01:29 PM	#34
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	A Walker is not a holster gun but that heavy frame absorbs a lot of recoil. A cap and ball revolver was State of the Art in its day and a HUGE advance over the single shot. Yes, Wild Bill was fond of his Navy Colts.

November 10, 2018, 02:55 PM	#38
Rachen Senior Member Join Date: May 10, 2006 Location: Weekend cowboy Posts: 542	I use an 8" barrel Pietta 1858 as my go to arm for both vehicle carry and shoulder holster under a jacket for camping and hiking trips. I have never had any issue with powder getting wet or contaminated after I started cutting off pieces from plastic hospital O2 nasal lines and using them to cover the capped nipples. No water has been able to get past the sheathing, never mention anywhere near the primer or propellant, and I have carried the old warhorse through rain, snow and floods. One of the best things I love about caplock revolvers is the versatility of choosing loads and projectiles for them. Just like the cartridge revolvers that fire straight-walled cases, they can be tailored for a variety of different needs. Most of my shooting involves punching cardboard targets so light loads of 20 grains and swaged roundballs work perfectly. But for hunting and defense against dangerous game, when that old Remington is packed with 36 grains of Olde Eynsford and a 200 grain Buffalo conical, it will take down a fully grown feral hog with complete pass-through performance and a pretty impressive wound channel. Done that a few times enough to know what this old stallion can do. Shots through a chrony have clocked 1200fps with that load. That is almost .357 magnum levels of power. The sound is absolutely deafening also. Just like a howitzer. I have absolutely no problem with trusting my safety to this old hunk of steel, because loaded and primed properly it delivers the same performance as a .45 LC levergun or SA cartridge handgun. Combine that with experience and decent marksmanship and you have a weapon that will serve you well in most kinds of defensive situations where lethal force is required. Even if some POS psycho with an AR-15 was pumping rounds into a crowd of innocent shoppers at a mall, if I can happen to place my ass behind something concealing like a car or dumpster, draw the Remington and fire one well aimed round, that POS is going down and not coming back up, and that is a most certain thing. No one, not even a raging psycho pumped up on uppers is going to absorb 450 foot pounds of impact on center mass or CNS and continue going. Not happening. Like the old swordfighter Musashi said "The difference between an armed man and a true warrior is that the warrior knows his weapon". Merely having a weapon does not prove anything when a life or death struggle is happening. Knowing your weapon and mastering the techniques of it's use is what will determine if you, your loved ones and the crowd of innocents around you will survive the encounter. The samurai sword may not be in regular use as a combat arm today but Musashi had the principles of it's use converted into a timeless tutorial of the psychology of combat, no matter what weapons may be used. That is the Book of Five Rings.

April 20, 2019, 04:29 PM	#40
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	Armed with a brace of cap and ball revolvers , Remington or Colt , Army or Navy , I would not feel defenseless at all. Maybe I watched too many westerns but a lot of men have died to percussion arms. Plus I like the fact that I can mail order them ...delivered to my door , no forms , paperwork or permit required... In Louisiana at least . Gary

April 23, 2019, 11:18 AM	#42
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	I’m curious how it is you have a conversion for a .44 Spl working in that 1860 Army. It seems the grooves on the various “.44 cal” repros run around .450-.454” and the lands no less than maybe .440”, which wouldn’t be conducive to working with a .429-.430” bullet.

April 23, 2019, 01:46 PM	#45
Schlitz 45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2018 Location: Colorado Posts: 384	If we devolve to cap & ball revolvers for self defense my choice would be a LeMatt-nine shots of 44 caliber through a rifled 6-3/4" barrel & 20 gauge shot from the 5-7/8" smooth bore barrel would be almost as good if not better than a brace of 6 shooters in a pinch, plus they're a classy looking weapon.

April 24, 2019, 11:41 AM	#46
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	I’ve read nothing but issues with the LeMat.

April 24, 2019, 08:40 PM	#47
Stormson Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2014 Location: Mountains of SouthWest VA. Posts: 193	Same here Bob. Though I admit to still wanting a brace of em LoL. Arnt they limited to around 20grs in the cylinder though??? That wouldnt seem like a lot for real work...

April 24, 2019, 11:18 PM	#48
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	Howdy stranger! From what I understand they hold about 5 grns less (~30 grns?) than a Remmy or Colt. Still not too bad if you use an energetic powder. The cost is a bit much for a brace of them. And for the cost I think I’d prefer a Howdah 20ga.

April 26, 2019, 12:29 AM	#49
Stormson Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2014 Location: Mountains of SouthWest VA. Posts: 193	Of course, this is TOTAL fantasy... Being the po' boy that i am LoL... Hell a single La Mat is total fantasy for me.... Still.. I have often thought, where I so rich as to not know what to do with my money, the perfect set up would be... Two drop holstered Le Mats... Two Howdahs backing them up, either directly behind somehow, or crossdrawed from the middle of the back.. Two Kukris also cross draw MOB.. and two of my beloved 1860 snubbies with birdheads in a dual shoulder holster... LoL.. A total walking bad ass!!! Of course.. What the hell I would actually DO with such a set up.. Outside of the zombie apocalypse.. I really have no Idea.. But MAn it'd be nice to say I HAVE it just the same!!! LoL Anyway.. I could have sworn that Mike said in one of his vids that he could only pack around 20grs with a wad... Ill have to go back and check if I get the time...

April 26, 2019, 09:20 AM	#50
Trum4n1208 Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2013 Posts: 173	I had also heard that the modern LeMat could only fit 20 grains under the ball. Personally, I would avoid it if I had to use a cap & ball gun for self defense. They're great pointers but it has a beast of mainspring, if the one I've handled was any indication. To the point where cocking it one-handed, with that grip, isn't the easiest thing to do. If we're indulging in fantasy, I'd say a pair of 1860 armies would do the job. They're reliable, resistant to fouling, good point shooters, and you can load them with conicals for better stopping power.