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View Poll Results: Which Trigger to Buy?
Fostech Echo 22 66.67%
Franklin BFS 9 27.27%
Tac Con 3MR 2 6.06%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 20, 2016, 08:21 PM   #51
BigDave101
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My vote would be for the Gen 3 Franklin trigger. Why?

1) It is available now
2) It has FULL approval of the ATF
3) It needs no special carrier
4) The hammer follow issue has been completely eliminated as long as you use and extra strength buffer spring. No low mass carrier is needed as far as function reliability is concerned. But a low mass will likely increase the over all speed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ONpFy-QR8
5) Works with ALL platforms: PISTON AR-15, 9mm AR's, Sig MPX, Sig MCX, .22cal AR15 and so on.


Reasons NOT to Pre Pay for a Fostech Trigger

1) The trigger has only received ATF approval for it's original configuration. NOT for its current configuration with the hammer trip. NOTE: The ATF has NEVER approved a hammer trip function for a non NFA trigger set up. Are they likely too in this case? No body knows..including Fostech.
Source: Franklin Armory's RECENT first hand conversation with the ATF. They publicly published this on several posts in various threads on AR15.com.
No one is crying libel or slander. So...you be the judge. Fostech has not replied to the contrary in social media that I know of.
8/4/16:
"We also just got back from a meeting with the Chief of the Firearms Industry Services Branch. He directly told me that his department has never approved a semiautomatic binary type trigger system with a sear trip. This does not mean that our competition won't eventually have approval, but they certainly don't have it now like some have claimed."
www.franklinarmory.com
http://franklin-armory.myshopify.com/

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/6...d_.html&page=3

2) Fostech has amended the release date several times blaming all sorts of things. (besides the truth?). The current delay is blamed on out of spec parts delivered by a contractor. Lies? Truth? IDK. You be the judge.

3) The Fostech, IF it gets approved will work with out their special carrier but not properly. Will likely have hammer follows and FTF and other unknown at this time issues.

4) Is the Fostech UN usable with piston systems? Unknown at this time. It APPEARS that their "custom" carrier is nothing more than an ordinary milspec carrier with two small ramps milled in the underside trip face of the carrier. These ramps do not necessarily appear precision or difficult to duplicate with a milling machine or even a Dremel.

5) It is still unknown if the ONLY difference in the carriers is the ramps.

6) It may be impossible to use the Fostech reliably with piston guns. Unknown at this time. Fostech has not released any statements concerning this.

7) The Fostech may NEVER get approved in its current form. There is no date set for either approval or rejection

8) If the trip function does not get ATF approval, what then?

The Franklin Armory Gen 3 is here and now and is shown to be 100% reliable with a red or orange Sprinco spring. So, as they say, "Suit yourself."

I do not work for anybody in the fire arm business, or receive any gun related products from anybody for any reason.

Note the Tac Con trigger was once $500. Now it is $375. I can not see them staying in business unless they lower the price to $250. It has been shown time after time that a Geissle and Hiperfire (and others) triggers are JUST as fast as the extremely over priced rip off Tac Con. Buying one of these is the biggest mistake you could possibly make..unless you pay $250 or less.

Is the Gen 3 FA trigger worth $450+? Only if the features are something you really want. No one has shown any other trigger coming even close..except for a real full auto AR-15. I have seen one string from the Gen 2 FA trigger at 900fps which is FASTER than most full auto M4's.

Not everyone wants a binary trgger that can ALSO be fired in standard semiu auto. So at the current price, it is niche trigger. A highly sought after niche trigger, mind you. The sales numbers after a year will be interesting to see.
$475 is a lot for a trigger when many will not even spend $60 or even $45 to replace their OEM crappy Milspec triggers.

Last edited by BigDave101; August 20, 2016 at 08:52 PM.
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Old August 22, 2016, 09:02 AM   #52
Skans
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A couple of comments/updates.

It is true that Fostech has now moved the delivery date to 2016 4th quarter. "Echo Triggers are currently estimated to begin shipping in the fourth quarter of 2016" with no further explanation. I have $210 on deposit with them and I am wondering if I will ever see this product.

I have a FA Binary trigger installed. I haven't had a chance to try it out yet, so I can't comment on reliability. But, if mine is a Gen1 and they say Gen3 works great, does that mean my Gen1 is a piece of crap? I don't get it? And, how do you know what generation your Binary trigger is? Also, if the gen3 is approved by BATFE, does that mean Gen1 and Gen2 are not approved?
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Old August 22, 2016, 10:18 PM   #53
BigDave101
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Dear SKANS:

"It is true that Fostech has now moved the delivery date to 2016 4th quarter. "Echo Triggers are currently estimated to begin shipping in the fourth quarter of 2016" with no further explanation. I have $210 on deposit with them and I am wondering if I will ever see this product."

Answer: Read my post directly before your post

"I have a FA Binary trigger installed. I haven't had a chance to try it out yet, so I can't comment on reliability. But, if mine is a Gen1 and they say Gen3 works great, does that mean my Gen1 is a piece of crap?"

Answer: There WAS no Gen 1 that shipped. Gen 1 was a prototype. The first units shipped were ALL Gen2. Gen 2 are not a peice of crap. But they are a little harder and possibly more expensive to tune to get to work properly.
People find that they can get the Gen 2's to run perfectly if they:
a) Use a red or orange rated Sprinco spring
b) Carbine or LIGHTER buffer. They have plenty of speciallty buffers lighter than carbine. You can open up a carbine buffer and take out the weights too.
c)Low mass carrier. Not ALL guns need this like rifle length gas AR's with 18-20" barrels. Got a carbine length gas system and a 16" or shorter barrel? Probably going to need a low mass carrier used in conjuction with "a" and :b"

" And, how do you know what generation your Binary trigger is?"

Answer: Anyone that has a trigger as of today's date has a Gen 2. The new Gen 3's will start shipping at the very end of August

"Also, if the gen3 is approved by BATFE, does that mean Gen1 and Gen2 are not approved?"

Answer: ALL Generations of the BFS are approved. There were not significant structural changes that needed new approval. BFS has worked extremely closely face to face with the ATF.

What is the big deal about the Gen 3?

Answer: The Gen 3 tested here shows that ONLY a stronger spring is needed..like an Orange or a Red Sprinco Spring. MAYBE a light buffer too, but it is mostly all about a stronger spring. A low mass carrier is not necessary but would increase the cycle rate if you want to run one.

Video of the Gen 3 reliability by independent tester.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ONpFy-QR8

Supposedly the Gen 3 will ship with a stronger buffer spring for NO extra charge. Gotta say, I am impressed with Franklin on so many levels. They have been VERY good to post updates and answers to specific questions on the other forum I am on.

Please go to THIS link for a ton more info:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/6...d_.html&page=1

It is 6 pages. Read all of them. Contains color photos, video and much more.


Fostech's pants are on fire. They do NOT have ATF approval for their sear trip final design since the original approval was for a design with NO sear trip.
NOBODY knows for sure when or IF the sear trip version will be approved.
IMO, anybody with a deposit with Fostech is tying up good funds. Even if the Fostech is approved you have much more limits than the BFS...like Fostech's special bolt carrier that you MUST run to get 100% reliability.

Franklin is showing 100% reliabity with tuning for Gen2's and 100% reliability with just a spring for Gen 3's. So, as they say..."Suit Yourself"!

Last edited by BigDave101; August 22, 2016 at 10:25 PM.
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Old September 1, 2016, 05:55 PM   #54
Skans
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I notice that Fostech's website now says that they will be shipping their trigger system in the 3rd quarter of this year; i.e. September. I don't know why this was again changed, but we'll see.
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Old September 6, 2016, 05:54 PM   #55
Skans
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Nope. I was wrong. Fostech's website says they are shipping in the 3rd Quarter on their main page at the top, in red letters. But, when you click on it, in smaller print it states " Echo Triggers are currently estimated to begin shipping in the fourth quarter of 2016". In any event, 3rd quarter ends with September 30 - I've not heard of any shipping yet.

Boy, you have to wonder are they trying to be deceptive? Or do they just not care about what information they put out there on this.

At this point, I'm wondering if I should ask for my money back.
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Old September 13, 2016, 05:26 PM   #56
peggysue
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Fostech is around $490 and wants you to advance them $200 for a trigger that may be out in December now?. It is your dime.
Franklin is showing 100% reliabity with tuning for Gen2's and 100% reliability with just a spring for Gen 3's. So, as they say..."Suit Yourself"!
I got the Gen 2 for $260.

Last edited by peggysue; September 14, 2016 at 07:45 AM.
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Old September 14, 2016, 08:23 AM   #57
Skans
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Peggysue, I already have a Binary Gen2 - paid more than $260 for it. I installed it in one of my AR's but I haven't tested it yet.

I also have a deposit down for the Echo, which I have slated for a different AR. However, I'm now thinking about trying to get a refund of my $210 and buying a Gen3 Binary. $200 would be what I need to pay if/when it becomes available. The problem is that it may not be available until long after our next president is sitting in the oval office.
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Old September 14, 2016, 01:04 PM   #58
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Sorry I paid $360 for mine a few weeks ago. My mistake. I had to hand file the rings all the way down to fit my Spikes Jack Lower. Got aq red SpringCo buffer spring coming and used a lighter AR 15 cut carrier from an Armilite I have.

Last edited by peggysue; September 14, 2016 at 01:42 PM.
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Old September 14, 2016, 01:13 PM   #59
Skans
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I had to completely file the rings down as well on mine which is an SI-Defense lower. I've tested the action a number of times and it seems to work consistently. You really do get a feel for the way this thing works by fitting it yourself. Tedious, but also kind of fun.
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Old September 16, 2016, 10:25 AM   #60
peggysue
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I'd probably get a Fostech when it comes out. I have plenty of AR's to put it in. Yes I have a Bumpfire stock on an AR too. I am a sucker for toys.
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Old October 3, 2016, 12:44 PM   #61
Skans
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Fourth Quarter started on October 1. No word from Fostech as to when they will be shipping the Echo Trigger. I placed my order in early March.

Does anyone really believe they will start shipping triggers in this 4th quarter? I was willing to wait up to 6 months to get one of these. I am not willing to wait 1 year.
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Old October 3, 2016, 12:57 PM   #62
nomad636
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Please see the correspondence I had with Judd Foster at the beginning of last month. Still no update.

Quote:
On Sep 9, 2016, at 7:00 AM, Judd Foster <[email protected]> wrote:



Our triggers will be shipping out the door by then. I am not positive that yours will deliver by the end of this month. If you wish, I will refund your money. However, please be aware that Franklin has no ATF approval letter and we did try a system similar to what they have done and it came back as a machine gun from the ATF. I cannot say what the ATF will do with their new trigger system except simply to tell you to be cautious. Their new system also has the same function issue that their original had (No ATF approval either). If you run the gun to fast you will get hammer follow. Our trigger also comes with a stripped carrier with gas key. That is easily a $100.00 value making our trigger a much better deal. Look at their trigger and compare it to ours and you will see there is no comparision.

Thank you,


Judd Foster
FosTecH
Office: 812-445-4028
Fax: 812-445-4019
[email protected]

<image001.png>




From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, September 9, 2016 12:17 AM
To: Judd Foster <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Invoice 1121 from FOSTECH

Hi Judd,
I wanted to follow up with you regarding the shipping status of the Echo Trigger. Last time we corresponded we were looking at an early Sept. delivery date. Is this still realistic?

I look forward to hearing from you.


Sent from my iPhone
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Old October 3, 2016, 02:55 PM   #63
Skans
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Nomad, I ordered my Fostech Echo Mid March 2016 and haven't heard a thing. When did you place your order?
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Old October 3, 2016, 03:12 PM   #64
nomad636
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Skans, I placed my order on Feb. 25th.
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Old October 3, 2016, 08:00 PM   #65
peggysue
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Sounds like wicked competition between Franklin and Fostech. AR15.COM has a couple of good threads on the Franklin Gen2 and Gen 3 trigger. Franklin is pretty active on the threads too. I guess it is good Fostech final came out of their hiding with their e-mail. Fostech may be still waiting to get their new auto sear like trigger approved by the ATF yet?
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Old October 3, 2016, 10:24 PM   #66
nomad636
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[QUOTE]

On Jul 15, 2016, at 9:23 AM, Judd Foster <[email protected]> wrote:

That is our estimated date. To promise you that date would not be fair of me because I thought we would have already delivered your trigger now. What I caution you on is the promised date from Franklin as a target date for them and I would look really hard into if they have ATF approval for their new trigger. We have sent many designs to the ATF that did not have a secondary disconnect and they have always come back as machine guns. If they have an ATF approval letter then I would say they have a good simple system.






Judd Foster
FosTecH
Office: 812-445-4028
Fax: 812-445-4019
[email protected]
/QUOTE]
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Old October 4, 2016, 05:47 AM   #67
peggysue
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As I said wicked competition.
Contemplating on getting a Gen 3 Franklin as I already have a Gen 2.
I just can see paying $200 down on the elusive Fostech. I will wait. Anyone got one yet?
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Old October 4, 2016, 07:34 AM   #68
Skans
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Quote:
contemplating on getting a Gen 3 Franklin as I already have a Gen 2.
I've been thinking the same thing. While I'd like to have an Echo too, I think if I wait too long, I will just have the one I've got. I don't see the fierce competition - one company has been selling their binary triggers for almost a year; the other is still just taking deposits with no delivery date. At some point, I'd assume they may stop taking deposits if they blow another deliver date. At that point, I'll probably ask for my money back and buy a Franklin Gen III.

However, I kind of feel bad for Fostech on this. I'm sure the delays aren't their fault. I remember when Arse Defense came out with their Shrike belt-fed upper - people waited for something like 5 years to receiver theirs. Eventually, they did fill the orders. But, Arse Defense really didn't have any competition.

Last edited by Skans; October 4, 2016 at 08:02 AM.
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Old October 5, 2016, 08:23 AM   #69
nomad636
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Yesterday I was able to speak with someone on the phone over a Fostech, a very nice young lady. She explained to me the process of what they have had to go through to get to where they are at now.

They will be shipping the first batch of triggers in Oct. and said that even though I was one of the first to order... I should expect to see my trigger arrive in Nov.

They don't have a solid system in place for billing the second installment of the deposit. Their credit card company found out that they sell guns and dropped them, so they have had to find a new one and work out the details. Hence the most recent delay.

They said that they have a back log of 4,500 trigger systems and that once they start shipping them out they should be totally caught up by Feb... ie. if you place an order today, you should get your trigger in Feb. 2017.

They have made some recent hires so as to expedite packaging of the product. I told here I didn't care about packaging and she explained that the packaging is important as it keeps all of the pins and springs of the trigger system in place during shipping. It also goes to their QC so as to make sure that all of the little parts are included.

All of that explanation was fine and dandy... but what did bake my noodle was the fact that I will still have to pay $10 for shipping.... one would think that there should be free shipping for a $500 product.
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Old October 5, 2016, 10:58 AM   #70
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Nomad, that's actually pretty good news. If they actually start shipping triggers this month that means they have things worked out. Another quarter delay before and shipping and my hinkey meter starts going in the red.
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Old October 7, 2016, 04:20 AM   #71
peggysue
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Fostech's pants are on fire. They do NOT have ATF approval for their sear trip final design since the original approval was for a design with NO sear trip.
NOBODY knows for sure when or IF the sear trip version will be approved.
IMO, anybody with a deposit with Fostech is tying up good funds. Even if the
Fostech is approved you have much more limits than the BFS...like Fostech's special bolt carrier that you MUST run to get 100% reliability.

Fostech keeps on coming up with excuses. Heat treated parts run bad and now they lost their bank, and will ship next quarter, next quarter...
Perhaps they are going bankrupt which would mean whom ever pre-paid is out their money?

I am old and have seen a lot of companies come and go.
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Old November 4, 2016, 11:41 AM   #72
nomad636
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Movement

Fostech took my final payment today for my trigger. They said it would be shipping out on Wednesday of next week... already have the tracking information.

Once I have it in hand and am able to get it to the range, I will be posting youtube videos of my review and will upload the links to this post.

Finally a little bit of MOVEMENT
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Old November 7, 2016, 07:13 AM   #73
peggysue
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I am excited. Are you getting a pre-release for the filming? I have not placed a deposit so probably be next year for them to catch up. Keep us informed. I have tried emails to them but never get any reply's...even on their face book.
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Old November 7, 2016, 08:29 AM   #74
nomad636
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Peggy, I'm not getting a pre-release.... I really wish I was. I had one of the first 25 orders placed for the trigger, so naturally I will be one of the first to receive one.

I'm super stoked about it and will keep yall informed. One of the first tests I'm hoping to do with it after going to the range is to take it pig hunting and hopefully get on a group of 10-15 hogs.... and see how the double taps work.

The only way to get in touch with Fostech is to call them. Even then... it may take a few times to get them to pick up. They don't have call waiting... so if they are on the phone with another customer... it goes straight to voicemail.

Best of luck!!!
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Old November 7, 2016, 10:33 AM   #75
Skans
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Quote:
I have tried emails to them but never get any reply's...even on their face book.
I have emailed them fairly recently and they have emailed me back - just said they were on track to start shipping in November. This is good news, perhaps I'll actually get one....however, I wasn't one of the 1st 25!

On another note, I am surprised at how different the FA Binary Gen III is from the Gen II! While the Gen III is claimed to work better, the Gen II is a more intricate piece of machinery for sure. Two completely different systems.
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