Any ideas for helping me get better with trigger reset?

[Sgt127]

Another fantastic video.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=li0rGtXh23I

[gaseousclay]

^^
That’s a useful video. When I went to my firearm safety course last night, the instructor told me to do everything the guy in the video said not to do. He had me focusing on my sight and doing slow trigger pulls/resets. What I needed to do was do a better job at gripping the gun. When I fired my first round the recoil caused me to flinch which didn’t do anything to improve my grip. I was still able to hit center mass on the target, but the target was probably only 10 ft away. Next time I’ll focus on improving my grip and trigger control

[Sgt127]

“The guy” in the video is Rob Leatham. The (maybe arguably) greatest shooter of all time.

Please search more of his videoed. He’s not a “Combat” shooter. He’s a gamesman shooter. But, his skill at shooting fast and hitting is unquestionable. He’s the real deal.

I’m glad you found it useful.

My friend Ronin Colman (who is in the first video I posted) was my shooting mentor.

The phrase “The bullet goes where the front sight is when the hammer falls” is seared into my brain. (Ronins quote).

[gaseousclay]

“The guy” in the video is Rob Leatham. The (maybe arguably) greatest shooter of all time.

Please search more of his videoed. He’s not a “Combat” shooter. He’s a gamesman shooter. But, his skill at shooting fast and hitting is unquestionable. He’s the real deal.

I’m glad you found it useful.

I watched another video last night from Mike Glover, the former Green Beret, and he basically said something similar about the need for a firm grip to reduce muzzle flip. Good stuff

[Carl the Floor Walker]

I am glad I mastered/became competent with the DAO trigger All my carry guns are DAO and have never looked back. Worrying about which gun has what reset is not my cup of tea. Smooth, deliberate controlled DAO to center mass as fast as possible. Probably why, my favorite Trainer/Plinker is the Ruger LCR22.

[Flight567]

I don't frequently worry about resetting the trigger in glock terms, though I do prep my trigger.

So when I shoot, it's BANG,OFF, on to the wall, wait for the sights to find something I like, BANG,OFF. On to the wall....
Once you have that process down shooting fast and accurate is as easy as better recoil management; which usually leads to better trigger control by virtue of your grip being better, and not allowing the firearm to move even if your trigger mechanics are a bit sloppy.
This method also. In my experience tends to help with accuracy, because you're not moving the trigger as far, it acts closer to a single action break than moving through different trigger weights, and feels, which can upset the firearm if your grip is subpar (which it probably is. Mine isn't where I want it either).

Just my experience in instructing, and shooting. Look up jj racaza talking about preparing the gun/trigger.

There is of course a different method, if you're "gaming" or shooting competition; depending on distance, and ability. Ben stoeger talks about reactive vs proactive shooting. My style of shooting is reactive. I react to the sights being acceptably on target. Proactive shooting means "at this distance, with this target profile, and these conditions i know that at this cadence, or pace i can place every round in an acceptable area" that's modified just slightly from his speech but it gets the point home. In this type of shooting its more "grip it and rip it" smash the trigger as fast as I can type shooting.

I'm not so much a fan of this, I generally don't shoot for competition, and I'm not honestly particularly good at the sport. I don't believe that this technique has much application in civilian defensive shooting.

Sorry for the long-ish post.
Edit for grammar

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[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Flight567

There is of course a different method, if you're "gaming" or shooting competition; depending on distance, and ability. Ben stoeger talks about reactive vs proactive shooting. My style of shooting is reactive. I react to the sights being acceptably on target. Proactive shooting means "at this distance, with this target profile, and these conditions i know that at this cadence, or pace i can place every round in an acceptable area" that's modified just slightly from his speech but it gets the point home. In this type of shooting its more "grip it and rip it" smash the trigger as fast as I can type shooting.

I'm not so much a fan of this, I generally don't shoot for competition, and I'm not honestly particularly good at the sport. I don't believe that this technique has much application in civilian defensive shooting.

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While I agree a person has to answer for every shot in a self defense shooting, I don’t believe what you’re describing is opposed to that. I know that at say 3-7 yd I can deliver rounds at a certain cadence and have all of them fall within say a 6 in diameter circle. This doesn’t require me to have a full sight picture for every shot. Now at longer distances I know that the accuracy achieved this way isn’t satisfactory and I would switch to obtaining a sight picture for every shot. The distance at which someone can do this varies by their skill level.

The why I would do this isn’t just about speed for a competition. In a defensive shooting we’re trying to stop someone or multiple someones from hurting ourselves or someone else. The longer this takes the longer the other person has to either shoot at us, stab us, hit us, etc. Speed has a role and there is a balance between speed and accuracy.

With good body mechanics you can deliver rounds at shorter distances by shooting reflexively. It does take a fair amount of practice, but in the two day course I did most students were amazed at how well they could do. The course wasn’t geared towards competition. It was based in practices by Bob Taubert, who was a firearms instructor for the FBI.


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[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by ghbucky

Does that lead to any kind of inaccuracy? Are you slapping the trigger causing the gun to move?

Or is it still 'good enough' to get the job done?

I found this video helpful.

https://youtu.be/ZZBnuwtUb_4


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[rc]

Sounds like you want advice that will make you a worse shooter. You don't worry about letting off the trigger during recoil. When the slide slams forward, let off the dang trigger.

[Flight567]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

While I agree a person has to answer for every shot in a self defense shooting, I don’t believe what you’re describing is opposed to that. I know that at say 3-7 yd I can deliver rounds at a certain cadence and have all of them fall within say a 6 in diameter circle. This doesn’t require me to have a full sight picture for every shot. Now at longer distances I know that the accuracy achieved this way isn’t satisfactory and I would switch to obtaining a sight picture for every shot. The distance at which someone can do this varies by their skill level.

The why I would do this isn’t just about speed for a competition. In a defensive shooting we’re trying to stop someone or multiple someones from hurting ourselves or someone else. The longer this takes the longer the other person has to either shoot at us, stab us, hit us, etc. Speed has a role and there is a balance between speed and accuracy.

With good body mechanics you can deliver rounds at shorter distances by shooting reflexively. It does take a fair amount of practice, but in the two day course I did most students were amazed at how well they could do. The course wasn’t geared towards competition. It was based in practices by Bob Taubert, who was a firearms instructor for the FBI.


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My issue with it isn't the mechanics, its the mental processing needed to accurately assess a live, developing situation accurately.

I can look at a paper target 7 yards away and know that I can rip it because its at that distance, and has a certain tolerance for accuracy. It is significantly harder to interpret a situation wherein there are people moving around, my target, and I are actively moving, or maneuvering; cover, concealment, innocents possibly running around in the background or to the sides etc....

Most "operators" are capable of quickly and accurately assessing a room, or situation based on training and experience. Many people who have dedicated significant time to training are also capable of doing a good job of that. Someone who has taken a CCW class and a "mechanics" class or two will more than likely not be able to accurately, or quickly. I tend to lean into that side of the equation more than the mechanics side. That's why I says "shoot whenvyour sights allow" because it encourages active interpretation of the situation.

I can certainly see that the grip it and rip it school has a lot to offer: "make decision, send it, while that occurs look for new decision to make" etc.. I just don't find that MOST people are willing to put the effort into defensive shooting that this becomes an efficient and effective strategy. For people who are able to work on that it is certainly acceptable. Definitely something that someone who is serious about defensive shooting should have in their toolbox.

I would encourage anyone who STRICTLY adheres to the grip it and rip it school to look at what chuck pressburg (roland) says in/about his no fail classes.

Edit:
Why would becoming more efficient with your time and motion make you a worse shooter?
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[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Flight567

My issue with it isn't the mechanics, its the mental processing needed to accurately assess a live, developing situation accurately.

I can look at a paper target 7 yards away and know that I can rip it because its at that distance, and has a certain tolerance for accuracy. It is significantly harder to interpret a situation wherein there are people moving around, my target, and I are actively moving, or maneuvering; cover, concealment, innocents possibly running around in the background or to the sides etc....

Most "operators" are capable of quickly and accurately assessing a room, or situation based on training and experience. Many people who have dedicated significant time to training are also capable of doing a good job of that. Someone who has taken a CCW class and a "mechanics" class or two will more than likely not be able to accurately, or quickly. I tend to lean into that side of the equation more than the mechanics side. That's why I says "shoot whenvyour sights allow" because it encourages active interpretation of the situation.

I can certainly see that the grip it and rip it school has a lot to offer: "make decision, send it, while that occurs look for new decision to make" etc.. I just don't find that MOST people are willing to put the effort into defensive shooting that this becomes an efficient and effective strategy. For people who are able to work on that it is certainly acceptable. Definitely something that someone who is serious about defensive shooting should have in their toolbox.

I would encourage anyone who STRICTLY adheres to the grip it and rip it school to look at what chuck pressburg (roland) says in/about his no fail classes.

Edit:
Why would becoming more efficient with your time and motion make you a worse shooter?
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It shouldn’t require significant mental processing to know the difference between 3 yd and 10 yd. I disagree with the phrasing of “grip it and rip it”. To me that suggests a lack of control that I’m not implying in the above. What I’m discussing isn’t just trigger mashing as fast as possible, at least as was the case in my instruction.

The goal isn’t to STRICTLY adhere to any single method. The goal is to have multiple techniques and use them judiciously.

Where did I ever say becoming more efficient with your time and motion makes you a worse shooter?


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[Flight567]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

It shouldn’t require significant mental processing to know the difference between 3 yd and 7 yd. I disagree with the phrasing of “grip it and rip it”. That implies a lack of control that I’m not implying in the above.

The goal isn’t to STRICTLY adhere to any single method. The goal is to have multiple techniques and use them judiciously.

Where did I ever say becoming more efficient with your time motion make you a worse shooter?


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On a flat range, with nothing else going on, no distractions, and only the stress of the timer (not a useless thing) it is certainly easy to determine the distance and accuracy constraints of a target. In a fluid situation with many factors involved that we can only guess at, and usually make mediocre attempts at recreating, it is far more difficult to accurately analyze a situation.

It was lazy of me to use that phrase, my apologies. Of course that technique is used with control and care, and after making the proper decision to utilize it.

On the matter of having either skill available in your toolbox we certainly agree. I just tend to rely on what I perceive as a more reliable method. I assume that you do the same based on your experiences.

I was referring to another poster who had said that asking about preping the trigger during recoil was asking about how to be a worse shooter.

Edit:
I do appreciate you joining in @TunnelRat . I always feel that you challenge my presuppositions, and It makes me better for it. I rather enjoy our exchanges, sir.
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[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Flight567

On a flat range, with nothing else going on, no distractions, and only the stress of the timer (not a useless thing) it is certainly easy to determine the distance and accuracy constraints of a target. In a fluid situation with many factors involved that we can only guess at, and usually make mediocre attempts at recreating, it is far more difficult to accurately analyze a situation.

It was lazy of me to use that phrase, my apologies. Of course that technique is used with control and care, and after making the proper decision to utilize it.

On the matter of having either skill available in your toolbox we certainly agree. I just tend to rely on what I perceive as a more reliable method. I assume that you do the same based on your experiences.

I was referring to another poster who had said that asking about preping the trigger during recoil was asking about how to be a worse shooter.

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As someone that has done force on force with UTM, I can say that in my experience a person needs to be able to gauge distances, even if roughly. You’re right that a shooting is a dynamic event. Knowing that someone is 10 ft from you as opposed to 30 ft from you is important. Will you have the measurements down to inches? Not likely (at least for me), but distance to target and the difficulty of a certain shot in general relative to your skill level are critical for determining if you decide to take that shot or not.

It also relates to whether or not I’m using the firearm in the first place. Take the Tueller drill for example. Knowing if you have the space and time to complete a draw or if it would be better to go hands on to control a contact weapon is something that can happen. Or maybe you decide to run away given the available distance (a perfectly legitimate strategy in many instance). Distance also goes to the legal aftermath. A threat at 25 yd is significantly different than a threat at 3 yd. While I wouldn’t suggest quoting exact distances to the threat in an interview with police, you may likely need to be able to communicate why you needed to use the firearm. Proximity to threat can be part of that.

I’m not suggesting being so rigid as to say that at distance X you always do this and distance Y you always do that. That’s why I made the response about the use of the word strictly. What you do depends on the whole picture. Generally speaking I always want a good sight picture as the consequences of a missed shot are a lot more than a time penalty. My point is if someone is just out of arm’s reach and about to strike or shoot me knowing I can deliver rounds to the upper thoracic cavity with a very high probability of hits by shooting reflexively rather than take the time to acquire a full sight picture for each shot is something I might make use of. As you say, tools in a toolbox.

And l always enjoy a good discussion. The reason I responded isn’t because I disagree strongly. I actually agree with you a lot more than I disagree. I just wanted to point out to the OP that there are times when it may make sense. You’re right though that it may be something that requires some training before putting to practice.


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[Flight567]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

As someone that has done force on force with UTM, I can say that in my experience a person needs to be able to gauge distances, even if roughly. You’re right that a shooting is a dynamic event. Knowing that someone is 10 ft from you as opposed to 30 ft from you is important. Will you have the measurements down to inches? Not likely (at least for me), but distance to target and the difficulty of a certain shot in general relative to your skill level are critical for determining if you decide to take that shot or not.

It also relates to whether or not I’m using the firearm in the first place. Take the Tueller drill for example. Knowing if you have the space and time to complete a draw or if it would be better to go hands on to control a contact weapon is something that can happen. Or maybe you decide to run away given the available distance (a perfectly legitimate strategy in many instance). Distance also goes to the legal aftermath. A threat at 25 yd is significantly different than a threat at 3 yd. While I wouldn’t suggest quoting exact distances to the threat in an interview with police, you may likely need to be able to communicate why you needed to use the firearm. Proximity to threat can be part of that.

I’m not suggesting being so rigid as to say that at distance X you always do this and distance Y you always do that. That’s why I made the response about the use of the word strictly. What you do depends on the whole picture. Generally speaking I always want a good sight picture as the consequences of a missed shot are a lot more than a time penalty. My point is if someone is just out of arm’s reach and about to strike or shoot me knowing I can deliver rounds to the upper thoracic cavity with a very high probability of hits by shooting reflexively rather than take the time to acquire a full sight picture for each shot is something I might make use of. As you say, tools in a toolbox.

And l always enjoy a good discussion. The reason I responded isn’t because I disagree strongly. I actually agree with you a lot more than I disagree. I just wanted to point out to the OP that there are times when it may make sense. You’re right though that it may be something that requires some training before putting to practice.


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I would venture to say that you and I are on the same sheet of music. Perhaps different keys, though definitely the same tune.

I will add that I'm really not so worried about the target, as odd as that may sound. I worry about the ability comprehend the whole problem. Innocents, cover, angles, possible ambush/secondary ambush locations etc... and while it may seem counter intuitive
I find that engaging students mentally in the shooting process has the effect of engaging them mentally in the whole fight once they are able to process the mechanics of shooting and have RAM left over. Of course different students need different things, and learn differently.

These discussions are wonderful. Especially in a public forum like this where we can hopefully add something to someone's toolbox, and encourage people (each other included) to get more training!

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[TunnelRat]

I very much agree that mental engagement is key. And yea I think we’re more on the same page than not. Take care.


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[Flight567]

@ghbucky did you get an answer that made sense to you in any of that? We went off on a tangent a bit there. Do you have any particular questions based on the other answers you've recieved?

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