.45 Win Mag?

[Bongo Boy]

Yes, I'd like to show up at the Club with ammo in hand so after doing the transfer I can walk out on the range and start shooting. A little field strip first, of course to check for major missing parts, no slugs stuck in the barrel, etc., and hose everything down with lube. But why would I (you) not load the ammo before having the gun?

I'm most likely not going to have any jacketed bullets by the weekend, other than some 200 gr XTPs, so I'll likely cast up some 230 gr round nose (a mold I also had forgotten about) and just seat to the typical OAL for 230 gr FMJ ball. I can't see blowing those little XTPs downrange in a trial run.

For whatever reason I've got two sets of 45 Auto dies--a Hornady set and a Redding set. I'll definitely set up a set for 45WM and dedicate--undoubtedly I'll choose the set that I actually had working for 45 ACP, but I'm fairly certain I never ended up using the Reddings.

As for grips--well, it'll be just me and the originals that come with the gun. I'll no doubt attempt to make a pair of panels from some very nice linen or canvas micarta I have. I don't think there are many other choices--I assume grips for Govt 1911s won't cover the real estate on the Grizzly. I got a feeling cartilage will be bearing the brunt of the fun with this one.

Is the ambidextrous safety one of the interchangeable parts? The plated safety is going to be tough for me to accept unless there's no alternative.

At this point I consider this thread formally hijacked. Sorry.

[Sevens]

Hijacked -- perhaps, but do not fret, this was a three year old thread before it got bumped!

[EnoughGUN]

Bongo, look at texas grips. I bought micarta panels and Henry cut grizzly panels out of them, look great.

[Stevie-Ray]

But why would I (you) not load the ammo before having the gun?

Well, I would. But, I also had many different loads to see what worked best, and then ended up tweaking that load into several at the next outing, looking for best accuracy. Easier for me, as I wasn't looking for many different loads, like you may be in .45 Win Mag, but only 2 in .45 ACP, and 2 in 10mm.

[44 AMP]

Yes, I'd like to show up at the Club with ammo in hand so after doing the transfer I can walk out on the range and start shooting. A little field strip first, of course to check for major missing parts, no slugs stuck in the barrel, etc., and hose everything down with lube. But why would I (you) not load the ammo before having the gun?

Ok, yes, I get that. For me, that's what factory ammo is for (if you can get it) a small amount (one mag or cylinder usually does it) testing the "new" gun to ensure it works properly. IF something goes wrong on factory ammo, its a gun problem.

If it goes wrong with my handloads, it MIGHT be a gun problem. There's a difference.

I like having the gun on hand, as I create the loads, to be able to test chamber fit, feeding issues, sizing and crimping adjustments, etc.

I won't load a quantity of an untested load. Every time I've ever done it, it always seems to make more work, fixing what could have been avoided by testing a small batch first.

Real pain in the but to load up, say 300rnds and find out that gee, this gun wants .5gr more of Blasto powder to cycle reliably.
Or that your best bullet needs to be seated a tiny bit longer, or shorter to feed right. Or what looks like the right amount of crimp isn't...Things like that... Case gauges/ calipers, and all the other tools, careful measurement, all that, yes, sure. But to be certain, you need the gun, in hand.

This is, of course, only for new (to you) calibers. Think of it as part of the load development process. Real tough to develop a good load for a gun you don't have. If, on the other hand, its your 3rd .44 mag (for example) you already have developed loads, when the gun gets there, you just see if they need any tweaking to run right in the new beast...

[Ruger45LC]

I think it's a cool cartridge but due to size is rather limiting. Looking at Hodgdon's online data from a 5" barrel, seems to me the 45 Super and 460 Rowland basically are a .45 Win Mag that fits in a normal sized gun.

I've loaded .45 Super from my 5" KKM comped Glock 21 and ran anywhere from a 185gr to 1600 fps to a 255gr hardcast to 1325 fps to a 300gr hardcast over 1150 fps.

The .45 Win Mag has higher capacity so it would be a better candidate for stuff like H110 and the like, but if you want .45 Win Mag performance in a normal sized gun, handload the .45 Super will do it, so will the 460 Rowland.

[Bongo Boy]

I totally understand your perspective regarding the untested loads. Here's my perspective though: I'm going to put together a load that is published, using a propellant that has pretty big wiggle room, and my main objective is really to get the 'feel' of the gun. I truly expect it to cycle since I'm going mimic the shape of factory Winchester ammo, and I think I know what the factory load was (read it somewhere on the internet--so I'm basically an expert on the matter now). So, barring the edge case where the bullets are tumbling by the time they get to the target, I simply have a bunch of faith in the matter. This is a case where desire, hope and emotion are far stronger than everything I learned in engineering school. That happens a lot--I was just a 'B' student.

[44 AMP]

You know how to make good ammo, you are matching the length / profile of the factory round, odds are good it will work ok. Besides I like to check things, I don't recall ever being in a situation where I could make ammo before I got the gun.

I do understand, though.

I think it's a cool cartridge but due to size is rather limiting.

Is the .45LC rather limited, because of its size? The .45Win Mag is slightly shorter. Case length .45 Colt: 1.285" .45 Win Mag: 1.198"

Granted, the guns are bigger and heavier than less powerful ones, they sort of need to be.

On the other hand, the small light guns have their limitations as well.

Can you easily conceal a Grizzly .45 Win Mag IWB under your Hawaiian shirt? Probably not well if at all.

Can you smack a target with 500ft/lbs of energy at 100 meters with a compact 9mm? Not that I am aware of.

Everything has its limitations.

[Bongo Boy]

All I can say is this: if I'm confronted by a good number of angry watermelons, I want something that can turn 98% of each one into harmless saturated steam--not bust them into large chunks that are going to hit me in the head.

For that, my friend, you need a heavy hitter. They don't move or maneuver quickly, but they're massive.

Now back to the regular program. So...I learned a lesson--or I will have learned a lesson if I don't do it again. I loaded up 1,000 rds of 10mm with a hollow point cast bullet, with the intent of shooting it all in the Hunter. Went to the range today, and guess what? I can't get more than 3 rds of it in the Tanfo magazines. It's not the COAL that's the problem, it's the combination of OAL and the wide meplat--they get all goofed-up on the front of the magazine and the first one to get snagged by the slide takes a nosedive. So sure, they cycle fine in the G20--but that's not what I wanted to shoot them in. So, again, B student.

So...I may load a few 45 WM before the gun gets here, but if I load more than 50, I think that's not learning one's lesson. I've probably loaded 75,000 rds in the past 6 years--most of it 40SW, 45 Auto and 10mm Auto, and I've never had that happen. I've had ammo that didn't feed well, but I've never loaded 'standard' length ammo that wouldn't load into a magazine. I guess when you have a very wide flat nose, 'standard' length may not be the right length. Sure, seating them another 0.015" deeper solves the problem--but the point you were trying to make is now appreciated a little bit more 44 AMP. Coincidence this should happen for the first time just hours before my 45 WM brass gets here? I think not!


The first 45 Win Mag rolls off the line. Thank you sir! May I have another?



I think these 200 gr XTPs might just make the perfect watermelon load. Isn't going to win any contests--just 22 gr of 4227. But, I think that should be enough to cycle the gun and get a feel for it. Not sure how I'm supposed to get any more in the case, actually.

I fired 100 rds of 44 Mag today with the same load, except 240 gr cast slugs instead of XTPs. They were surprisingly comfortable loads--4227 looks to not only be slow, but gentle too. Like I say...it's what's on the shelf that we shoot.

Then, we'll give 'er an acid test with a few of these 205 gr RNFPs babies:

[44 AMP]

Glad you understand my point, Bongo, I was just trying to help.

22.2gr 4227 240gr .44Mag is the starting load listed in the first old Hornady manual I grabbed. They got 1100fps with that load from a 7.5" superBlackhawk. its a mild load. Just for comparison, the same table lists 22.4gr 2400 as max, they got 1350fps (same gun). That's NOT a mild load.

4227 isn't the powder I would choose, but if its what you can get (got) you can run with it.

If I can screw things up for you further, just ask (if I don't notice and butt in on my own! ) that's why we're here!

[Bongo Boy]

Well, I DO have several lbs of 800X left so that would certainly be a good choice I'd think (for 45 Win Mag). I actually didn't even think of it. I could work something up with that--looks to me like 14 gr would be a very safe mid-range starting point with the 200 grainers I've got right now.

Heck I'm firing up the lead pot tonight and pounding out some 230 gr ball. If that doesn't feed in a 1911-based design, what the heck will?

...and here's what we put together





and that beautiful box of brass from Starline that makes life worth living:



Everything was actually running on 23 gr of 4227, not 22--my error. These round nose cast bullets are running dead nuts 230 gr give or take a 1/2 grain or so, and so I just left the meter at 23 gr for those as well. Very close to the minimum for jacketed, but probably a tad toasty for lead.

Okay....that's 50 rds in a mix of light to medium bullets but with a consistent load at the low end of the scale for the first outing. Now all I have to do is wait for my club to not call me when the gun gets here (they NEVER call me), fire a few shots of Ballistol into the thing and let 'er rip. It's probably never even been warmed up, would be my guess.

[44 AMP]

To be completely honest, I've never shot any lead bullets through my .45 Win Mags. I could, simply haven't. (and just to be on the safe side, not going to shoot any through my Wildey, and "safe" in this case just means not gunking up the gas system )

Using an alloy suitable for 1200-1500fps, it should work fine in the .45WM. The Grizzly is recoil operated, so cast bullet concerns are the same as they are for smaller autos. The right alloy hardness for the velocity, and resist deforming during feeding/ not catch on the feed ramp.

Never used 800X (never even thought of it), sorry.

I measured some rounds from my last two boxes of Win factory ammo. (and its been decades, but I still don't feel right looking at a 20rnd box of PISTOL ammo!! All pistol stuff should be 50 to a box, like it was when I was a kid!!!)

1.570" seems to be the max length, 230gr FMJ and 260gr JHP, most were .002-004 shorter. The longest round I checked was actually one of the 230gr ball rounds.

If things go well, (and I'll know a bit more by Monday) in a few weeks I should be meeting and shooting with a fellow who has an Automag IV in .45 Win mag.
I plan to take the Wildey, the Grizzly, and my Contender 14". should be an interesting day!

[Bongo Boy]

I seated the round nose 230s at what 'looked right' to me, and they're right at 2.550". Unfortunately, my Speer manual doesn't give COAL for any of its loads (!) and my Hornady manual doesn't give a load for any FMJ bullets. Doesn't really matter though--we'll see what feeds reliably and go from there.

As a point of interest and more so in response to the OP (!), I see the current SAAMI recommended max average pressure for 44 Mag and 45 Mag are:

44 Rem Mag: 36,000 psi
45 Win Mag: 41,500 psi

As another tidbit, the Hornady online manual provides loads with a mix of psi and cup pressure units. For 44 Mag, all maximum load pressures given in psi are just below 36 kpsi, and where pressure is in CUP, the max loads are maybe around 38,000 CUP or so...as one might expect.

However, the situation for their published 45 Win Mag loads is a bit different--there are no pressures given in psi at all, and the max load CUP ratings are all around 37,000 CUP with one exception at 38,800 CUP. This would suggest all of the online published loads are significantly below the 41.5 kpsi SAAMI recommendation. The Hornady printed manual gives no pressures at all for anything, nor does the Speer manual--a real disappointment. Makes me want to set up a piezo instrumented pressure gun all the more--something I've wanted to do for years for 10mm. But, it would be a serious investment and I'm not convinced there's any money in doing independent test lab work, unless one could win a Federal contract (in which case lab testing capacity would be a factor).

In any case, it would be wonderful if it could be confirmed from manufacturer's chambering firearms in 45 Win Mag that they indeed designed to the SAAMI recommendation. Assuming yes, to me that implies any 44 Mag load tested to be at or below SAAMI recommendations is suitable for, and well within the safety limits of, the 45 WM cartridge. It's very hard for me to imagine that the differences between the two cartridge configurations demand any consideration.

Being unable to find a side-by-side photo of the two cases sectioned, I have no choice now but to create one.

As for 800X, this is what 16 gr of it looks like in the 45 Win Mag case, all ready to accept a 200 gr slug:



That should make somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,480-1,500 fps in a 6" barrel, roughly. On my data sheet, 800X rates as faster than No. 5, so I believe such a load is getting into the realm of diminishing returns for this powder. Again, it's what I got.

[Stevie-Ray]

Very cool. Will that 200 gr slug have to compress that charge at all?

[Bongo Boy]

No...the XTP and cast RNFP bullets won't quite touch this charge I don't think. Quite close--it's a nice fill-but no compression. It's the 4227 charges that get compressed a bit, but that seems normal and expected based on older 4227 load data I've seen for 44 Mag. For those, I'm running a magnum primer as it seems like the thing to do. I doubt there's any measurable difference in anything though, and have actually loaded 1/2 of 4227s with regular No. 300s.

The plan of action is to take an afternoon out, go out to the range where I can set up my chrono, and get some data for the good folks here interested and perhaps, like me, new to 45 Mag. Right now I've got 4-5 different loads, and will have 2-3 more soon. I discovered I have 10 lbs of HP-38 and actually found a load for that powder, along with published loads for Universal and Titegroup which I also have on hand. I don't expect much from them as they're fairly fast I think for this round. But, a hearty charge of Universal should smell real nice just the same. Sometimes we go for the little things.

I grew on 'on the shores of Lake Huron', with Port Huron, Lexington and Croswell being familiar territory. Mom, 94, still lives in Lexington.

[reticle]

Flashguy, I apologize for not giving attribution when I posted your pic. That was an oversight. Won't happen again.

[44 AMP]

Because of the larger surface area of the .45 bullet base, a given .44 load will produce slightly lower pressure in a .45 caliber.

SAAMI standards are wonderful things, but they are not "Line of death do not cross" kind of limits. They are prudent limits and crossing them is not something to be done without care and careful, rigorous testing, as each gun & load combination is different.

There is no direct correlation between PSI and CUP without knowing the specific details and calibration of the testing devices used. This causes tremendous confusion.

On a personal level, the pressure reading doesn't matter much, what matters is the performance of the load in YOUR gun. Industry standards are made with safety, and functionality concerns for ALL guns. You and I need only worry about what works (or doesn't) in OUR guns. And while nearly all guns and loads fall inside the general range, some drastic variances can happen. ON both ends of the range.

I've seen guns that had cratered primers and sticky extraction with factory loads. And guns that ate well above listed max loads without any sign of difficulty at all. Yours could be either one of these, or (much more likely) somewhere inbetween.

[Stevie-Ray]

The plan of action is to take an afternoon out, go out to the range where I can set up my chrono, and get some data for the good folks here interested and perhaps, like me, new to 45 Mag. Right now I've got 4-5 different loads, and will have 2-3 more soon.

Sweet. Though I don't own either an LAR Grizzly, or a .45 Win Mag, I am VERY interested, as I always wanted one, and if I find the right price on one, I still intend to buy. Keep us posted.

I grew on 'on the shores of Lake Huron', with Port Huron, Lexington and Croswell being familiar territory. Mom, 94, still lives in Lexington.

I'm about 200 miles north of there.

[Bongo Boy]

Okay, here's your complimentary case cutaway of the 45 vs 44 Mag cases. Don't make anything of the apparent flash hole diameters--I didn't section these perfectly and in both cases you're not seeing the full diameter, but something considerably less. My bad. Where comparative flash hole sizes are a matter of serious concern, please seek professional consultation. Otherwise, please accept my observation that flash hole diameters are indistinguishable to me, even using considerable magnification.

Both cases are Starline. The 44 Mag case has been fired at most 2 times and much more likely, once. The Win Mag case is unfired. The disturbance at the case mouth is due to my use of nerdle neez pliers to hold the case against the grinder. The 'disturbance' the 44 Mag case shows from 1/2 way up and above is most likely due to the beating it took from my rawhide mallet (notice the passive voice) in trying to straighten out the pliers mark, without my glasses.



Did I fail to mention how much I love the 45 Mag, even having never fired a single one? To quote a Chicago tune of a few years back...Searchin' So Long...

"Now I know my life has meaning"


Finally, as a silly humorous take-off of the currently-running Flonase add and with no apology to the marketing goons at GlaxoSmithKline:



No caliber war, please--this is intended as humor.

[Bongo Boy]

I wrote down in my load manual that the Winchester factory loads were/are 1,350 fps, but I'm not sure now where I saw that info. Does anyone have factory ammo that states the mv or have you seen the specs? I'm assuming all Winchester ammo was 260 gr FMJ because that's all I've seen.

[44 AMP]

I'm not certain what is in current (seasonal?) production, but I have some Winchester factory ammo 230gr FMJ and 260gr JHP.

Pretty sure I have the factory claimed MV for these in a book somewhere, when I find it, I'll let you know.

[Bongo Boy]

Ah, I found my source--the Hornady 9th Edition. Somewhat flimsy, but not too bad, it says:

The 45 Winchester Magnum is loaded to much higher pressure [than the 45 Automatic], propelling the factory loaded 230 gr FMJ-RN to 1350 fps...

A major understatement, for sure.

Anyway, I was confusing myself with regard to 230 and 260 gr bullets and also didn't realize both were 'factory' offerings.

As for this silly business of 'seasonal' ammunition, well, I probably should write Winchester and ask them "Since when are water jugs ever out of season?". But, I'm confident I wouldn't get a response.

This thing is really a monster--Hornady shows pushing a 200 gr XTP to 1,550 fps with 2400, and to 1,500 fps with AA9, and they claim that's in the 5" Grizzly. Those numbers are virtually identical--bullet, powder, charge and velocity--to their 44 Mag loads in a 7 1/2" Redhawk. The 45 Mag loads are actually a 1/10th of a grain lower across the upper end of the spectrum--and I imagine that there's a bit of room to spare pressure-wise with the 45. I have no reason to go there and I have to think now we're talking about some uncomfortable shooting in that featherweight Grizzly, too.

Me oh my.

[44 AMP]

I used to have a .44Mag Grizzly blued. traded it for a .45Win mag.

OK, some data on my Grizz...
.45 Win Mag 6"
overall length 10.5"
Height 5.5"
weight empty 3lbs 1 oz
weight loaded 3lbs 9 oz (7rnds)
Grip width 1.32" frame length front to back, measured just below grip safety 2.57"
Trigger reach 3.055"

For comparison, my Colt Govt Model
.45 ACP 5"
overall length 8 3/8"
Height 5.25"
weight empty 2lbs 8 oz
weight loaded 2lbs 13 oz (7rnds)
Grip width 1.275" frame length front to back, measured just below grip safety 2.12"
Trigger reach 2.57"


At over 3lbs empty, most would not consider the Grizzly a "featherweight".

[Bongo Boy]

most would not consider the Grizzly a "featherweight"

No, that was a little joke. But OTOH, comparing it to the only other thing I have in a comparable cartridge, 44 Mag, it sure does feel light compared to this guy:



Kind of interesting, actually. The 629 and the Grizzly (with fake compensator) are within about 1/8" of one another in both overall height and overall length, discounting the sights in both cases. The 629 comes in at 3 lb 13 oz. I think they're neck-and-neck for cool factor, however, even given my preference for auto pistols over wheelguns. I get 3 lb 3 1/4 oz for my empty Grizzly, with magazine--subtract 1 oz for the mag.

So far, what I have to experiment with is:

200 gr cast with 15.5 gr 800X*
200 gr XTP with 16.5 gr 800X
200 gr XTP with 22, 23 and 24 gr No 9
200 gr cast with 24 gr 4227*
230 gr cast with 23 and 24 gr 4227*

Will load up some Longshot but this is one of those loads that, while it's in the manual, I'm not hopeful. I've sworn several times I'd never use the stuff again, and here I am sitting with an 8 lb jug of it. It sure looks good on paper (for the 44 Mag). We'll see.

*These have all been seated a bit deeper than initially, and all feed reliably manually cycling the gun.

[Bongo Boy]

All targets shot offhand at 15 yds indoors.

I forgot about at least one load:

230 gr LRN with 14 gr 800X



That load is a loser--don't even bother. I've never seen a group this bad from any gun I own unless the bullets were unstable. I hate these round nose cast bullets anyway. They look like crap and have never shot well with any load I've tried. At 15 yds today, I'm talking a 12" buckshot pattern. On looking very carefully at the holes, these may in fact be just starting to go tango--several are slightly oblong and leaving lead marks in excess of bullet diameter. My understanding is that 800X doesn't run well at anything much below max, so maybe the loads are too light. Feel and primer flattening doesn't suggest that to me, though.

200 gr RNFP (Lee cast) with 24 gr 4227



-- 28 rds shot immediately after the load above, at 15 yds, 3 1/2" group. My favorite cast bullet for 45. This is a relatively med load I think, and we'll start working with this one to see if it's The One.

200 gr XTP with 16.5 gr 800X



-- Also an awful load. 21 rds produced a splatter group of about 7". Just nasty and a criminal waste of beautiful XTPs. There could be more of the shooter causing the problem here than I'd like to think, though. I see a potential group buried in there.

230 gr LRN with 24 gr 4227



-- 14 rds made a 3.9" group, and finally another load I didn't mention--the Best of Show:

200 gr XTP with 24 gr 4227



-- 21 rds produced a 2.9" group, and something I would actually be justified in basing a sight adjustment on. Sights actually were adjusted twice during the session, with all shots fired with the orange disc sitting on top of the front sight.

Since I'm not going to be buying XTPs to throw downrange at paper, it will be the 200 gr RNFP Lee bullet that I attempt to nurture along with 4227. Folks say it's The Choice for cast bullets, if you can handle the smoke and smell. I'm okay with the smoke and I love the bouquet.

Now, for other matters.

Much of the 800X loads 'did something' I assume on ejection that banged them up pretty bad...with the side of the case flatted pretty good. These loads also showed some primer flattening, and a few of the heavier ones failed to extract fully. The slide came back all the way, but only pulled the case about 80% out of the chamber. I don't quite get how you get the case nearly all the way out of the chamber, then have the extractor lose it. But, I suppose if the case is free to cock sideways for some reason--a rounded-off extractor might just push the case out of the way rather than pull it straight rearward. Only happened with the heavy 800X loads.

Other than that, the deeper-seated cast bullets all fed with not one issue today, and I may ease off on the seating 0.010" or more, especially hoping to make room for 25 and 26 gr of 4227...which will be a full case indeed.

So 800X is definitely back on my list...of powders that won't be missed. Seldom have I ever had loads that would be too embarrassing to burn up at the range and instead need to be pulled-down.