Airsoft Force On Force Training: Serious Reservations

[stonewall50]

So I want to take some actual force on force training for concealed carry. It really appeals to me as a martial artist. The thing is I know that these courses can be expensive. And I have noticed that there is one in my area that doesn’t seem crazy expensive, but they use airsoft. How does everyone here feel about using airsoft guns as a force on force trainer? I assume the guns would be gas blowback and realistic. Do you think my reservations are unfounded or do you think one should be very hesitant of the use of these?

I really don’t know what I would be looking for in terms of training and what kind of schools to look at. I know how to look for a good martial arts gym and I assume that there is some translation for places that teach self-defense shooting. But I still would like some assistance.


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[Lohman446]

I think that force on force training is intended to hone skills beyond those associated solely to the firearm in your hand. As long as you recognize the limitations and retrain out any bad habits directly related to shooting you may accidentally pick up you will come out to the positive.

[stonewall50]

Originally Posted by Lohman446

I think that force on force training is intended to hone skills beyond those associated solely to the firearm in your hand. As long as you recognize the limitations and retrain out any bad habits directly related to shooting you may accidentally pick up you will come out to the positive.

That is sort of my understanding of the simunition training in general. As long as the weapons can get cleared the same way in a malfunction I guess.


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[Glenn E. Meyer]

Airsoft guns are quite commonly used in quality FOF trainings. However, well thought out scenarios are quite important. You should have no reservations about the use them in training. The problem is finding out the quality of the instruction.

Here's some tips:

http://www.corneredcat.com/which-cer...ms-instructor/

Both Massad Ayoob and Tom Givens offer quality training courses for instructors. Simple NRA certification is not sufficient for advanced course.

Here's a PDF on airsoft usage and how to do it. https://www.krtraining.com/KRTrainin...rceOnForce.pdf

If you were in TX, I would recommend Karl's outfit most highly. In California - I'd ask our own Frank Ettin who uses airsoft for beginner training.

For responders to the OP question - if you haven't been through instruction with airsoft, you might not give the standard Internet guru answer. Let's hear from folks who know something about it.

Next, doing FOF classes without mastering the basics of firearms usage and the theory of self-defense is not that useful. If folks just offer FOF for a paint ball, shoot 'em up experience - that's not useful. The scenarios need to be well planned, refereed and evaluated.

[MarkCO]

Airsoft works well IF the instructors and students treat it properly and not a live video game.

Malfunction drills and such won't be exactly the same, but for tactics and especially working as a team or group, very beneficial. I have been involved in FoF with Sims, Airsoft and paintball in Civilian and LE environments and it does help in some areas. The biggest thing I see in FoF is hesitancy...you have to go all in, as do the opponents, or you really won't gain the benefit.

I volunteer for 3 local LEAs as a role player, usually as a bad guy. One I am a shooter in various scenarios. I have found that does some good for me as well as I am integrally involved in their training scenarios, as well as their TCCC training. I also use the Simulator at one of the ranges I belong to where I do live fire on shoot/no-shoot, active shooter scenarios with live ammo and my personal guns. That one time where I went through 150 rounds of .308 in 15 minutes on the sims...was expensive, but I learned a lot too.

I say all of that only to point out that you never know what is going to happen. Have a plan, but be ready to adapt instantly when things don't go as planned, because they won't. The more exposure you get to various personalities, situations and styles of training, the better.

But no, I would not disregard it, if the instructor is quality.

[Go_Ordnance]

The problem I have with it is that it ignores real consequences. I think of the anti-gun preacher(?) who went through some police scenarios. Big guy advances, individual orders him to stop, big guy doesn't and gets shot.

While it's still possible, it's much less likely that somebody is going to keep advancing on a person with a gun. When you know it's an airsoft / simunition, you can be much more brave...

I think it's good for movement techniques and seeking cover. If you don't have it, you get hit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I'm sorry. If it is a well worked out training scenario, you don't get folks advancing on a person with a gun. You act as if they are real and if you engage in such stupidity, an instructor will toss your macho butt out of the glass.

So how do you train for real consequences? Hey, you can take the FOF class with real ammo and real blades. I've been banged up enough with sims and training blades to skip that.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

...In California - I'd ask our own Frank Ettin who uses airsoft for beginner training.....

I don't know off hand who might be doing FOF around here. Some years ago Louis Awerbuck had some FOF classes here using airsoft, andt I regret not taking one before he died.

We use airsoft very effectively teaching beginners shooting, but that's another thing.

I do think that it can be an effective tool, but as Glenn says, the most important thing is having good instructors.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The problem I have with it is that it ignores real consequences.

Police reports are chock full of people who ignore real world consequences.

I think of the anti-gun preacher(?) who went through some police scenarios. Big guy advances, individual orders him to stop, big guy doesn't and gets shot.

First, that is hardly an uncommon scenario. Everybody thinks they are the action hero of the film until they find out too late they were cast as “guy in crowd who gets shot.” Second, a few months back, an officer down in Austin shot an unarmed naked man who continued to advance on him after he drew his gun and ordered the man to stop. There were some real world consequences on both ends of the gun that night. Some quality FoF training that lets you start building some options for those kinds of scenarios is a great benefit.

The big problem is that like military battle modeling, the assumptions that go into the training are very important. And like most education, you don’t get any more out of it than you put into it. If you decide to be the action hero in your FoF training, you’re only limiting your own learning; but it is your money to spend.

[Lohman446]

While I get the "that macho guy who advances in force on force training is a problem" argument don't you run a risk, if that never happens, to not be prepared should it happen in the real world? As others have noted police log books are filled with people who have shown a tremendous lack of judgement of some type or another.

[doofus47]

I say go for it. It surely can't hurt.

(and I"m not calling you shirley!)

[FireForged]

I think that this type of consideration to be muddying the water. If you want to learn about gunfighting.. great. I wouldn't seek to parcel out tid bits of gameplay in a hope to gain some sort of realistic skill. Its just not the way I think it should be done. just my 2 cents. Badminton aint tennis

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by FireForged

...If you want to learn about gunfighting.. great. I wouldn't seek to parcel out tid bits of gameplay in a hope to gain some sort of realistic skill. Its just not the way I think it should be done....

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. But the fact is that FOF training is being used, and used effectively, by law enforcement agencies, SWAT teams, and other groups who do need gunfighting skills.

Most agencies probably use simunitions, but simunitions and the associated gear can be expense. Airsoft can, it appears from actual use, be a reasonable, economical substitute.

[OldMarksman]

If you want to learn about gunfighting.. great.

Most people who train for defensive shooting do not do so to "learn about gunfighting". The objective is to gain some of the skills necessary for self preservation, should they ever be needed.

I wouldn't seek to parcel out tid bits of gameplay in a hope to gain some sort of realistic skill.

I do not understand what you are trying to say.

Its just not the way I think it should be done. just my 2 cents.

How do you think it should be done?

[zincwarrior]

Originally Posted by Go_Ordnance

The problem I have with it is that it ignores real consequences. I think of the anti-gun preacher(?) who went through some police scenarios. Big guy advances, individual orders him to stop, big guy doesn't and gets shot.

While it's still possible, it's much less likely that somebody is going to keep advancing on a person with a gun. When you know it's an airsoft / simunition, you can be much more brave...

I think it's good for movement techniques and seeking cover. If you don't have it, you get hit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g

I am confused. How would it be more realistic, absent live ammo?

[Sharkbite]

While it's still possible, it's much less likely that somebody is going to keep advancing on a person with a gun. When you know it's an airsoft / simunition, you can be much more brave...

Thats not the case in real life encounters. The problem there is one of “presumed compliance”. Not every person that has a gun pointed at them does what they are told to do and to assume they will is DANGEROUS. Ive pointed guns at lots of people in real life (not training) and the responses ranged from instant compliance to instant escalation of their anger and a complete “F***y**, go ahead and shoot me!!!”

FoF training SHOULD include unarmed, but aggressive role players. Non compliance is a real problem and most people think that you drawing your gun will make everyone act rational... such is NOT the case

[Glenn E. Meyer]

That's correct! As I said before, good FOF is scripted so the aggressors for the student have their roles and responses clearly laid out. For example, in one FOF class, you entered your house and were surprised by a stranger. As a brave macho man, what to do? So you pull out your training roscoe and order him to put his hands up. Well, said gentleman says in a foreign language that he does not understand you and starts closing the distance slowly with a big grin on his face.

Solution for the student (Blast him - it's my castle! Remember the Maine, Alamo, Pearl Harbor, the Death Star!). Or if you could, back out of the house?

[Sharkbite]

Good point and one often overlooked by trainers DE-ESCALATION IS A SKILL, it needs to be practiced as much (or more) then the shooting part.

Good FoF training will utilize the ENTIRE use of force continuum. In a scripted, safe and controlled manner.

Airsoft, Simunitions, UTM, even paintball guns can be used. This is training for the MIND....not training to shoot.

[Go_Ordnance]

An unarmed person advancing on an individual pointing a gun at them is the exception, not the rule.

[Go_Ordnance]

“Good point and one often overlooked by trainers DE-ESCALATION IS A SKILL, it needs to be practiced as much (or more) then the shooting part.

Good FoF training will utilize the ENTIRE use of force continuum. In a scripted, safe and controlled manner.”

Good post.

[stephen426]

I say go for it. Tell them you are interested in attending and ask them to observe a class. If the instructors treat the airsoft guns like real firearms and give good instruction, it can't hurt. Paint ball COULD be good for tactical training, but there are so many paint ball guns that are super rapid fire with zero regard for collateral damage (bystander).

Unless you do any sort of IPSC, PPC, IDPA style shooting, you are going to be at a serious disadvantage if you have to shoot on the move, shoot at moving targets, or shoot rapid fire. Heck, most indoor ranges won't even let you draw from concealment. I think that is where there are gun fights that occur at bad breath distance, but people still miss.

I used my airsoft a lot when ammo got scarce and crazy expensive. I got one similar to my carry gun and used it for point shooting. I would bring the gun up from low ready and shoot at the target without really concentrating on the sights. I did it until the gun was a natural extension of my hand and I could put everything in a 2.5" group from about 15 feet. BE SURE TO GET AN AIRSOFT AS CLOSE TO YOUR CARRY GUN AS POSSIBLE!!!

[FireForged]

Airsoft can, it appears from actual use, be a reasonable, economical substitute

In my estimation, it is not a substitute. Sure its possible that some minor nuances can likely be uses in some limited circumstances but as I said earlier... its not the way I think it should be done. Its muddy water and anything that you might be able to use as "training" would be considered to be parceled out tid bits... at least to me anyway.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by FireForged

In my estimation,....

But is there any good reason anyone should care at all about what it is "in your estimation"? You might have an opinion, but you haven't convinced me that your opinion is worth anything.

[FireForged]

But is there any good reason anyone should care at all about what it is "in your estimation"? You might have an opinion, but you haven't convinced me that your opinion is worth anything.

I am not here to convince you or anyone else of my "worth" as you put it. I am here to enter into fruitful discussion and that is what I have done for nearly 20 years. If after reading my posts you find no worth in my words.. that's fine by me. good luck to you

[FireForged]

Most people who train for defensive shooting do not do so to "learn about gunfighting". The objective is to gain some of the skills necessary for self preservation, should they ever be needed.

when I say "gunfighting", I say that within the context of lawful self defense with a firearm. I had assumed that it would go without saying. I certainly am not talking about something villainous.

I do not understand what you are trying to say

I was saying that I would not use the bits a pieces of airsoft that may be applicable as a substitute to more competent training

How do you think it should be done?

I think FoF should be done within a proper ( non gaming) context, preferably with simunitions