Defensive Long Arm Class

Glenn E. Meyer · January 15, 2007, 11:55 AM

This Saturday, I took Karl Rehn's Defensive Long Arm class. I decided to do it with my AR. I had previously done some shotgun classes but not an AR one.

You could take this class with either as it emphasized home defense usage.

The class was held at Karl's place (www.krtraining.com). The weather was horrific. I had a long drive from San Antonio and had to pass through the remains of what seemed to be a mini-tornado on I-35 near San Marcos. Luckily the outlet mall was spared - :barf:

.

I did see a couple of pickups floating in the training ditches on the side of the road. One was about to try fit into the concrete arch of the ditch - ouch.

Sheets of water, lightning and thunder. But I made it.

The class emphasized using the gun from various positions, barricade, dominant and nondominant sides, with the gun not shoulder but a body index for an emergency. Sight pictures - etc. A nice go through of gun usage.

I shot pretty well for me - surprisingly I shot better on the nondominant side. Huh - Karl says that happens as we get more careful when we do that.

The gun ran fine except towards the end of the day with two failures to feed off a new mag after 150 rounds in the cold and rain. A generous helping of CLP aided that.

We also did some inside the house FOF scenarios which I think are some of the most important parts of training.

Basic scenarios were that you were in your house and heard the archetypal TV thief. Can you deal with it without getting killed?

The core strategy was to 'ambush' the bad guy and not be an explorer or commando except if you have to save a loved one.

Property was not worth fighting for. Despite claims that in TX you can just shoot away - Karl and his instructors made the point that depending on county, some TX DAs will take you or try to take you to trial on a defensive shooting. Internet commandos and lawyers be damned - one's head must rule the over the blood and guts rhetoric.

I (pat myself on the back) got through the scenarios by calling the cops and sternly dissuading the criminal to leave from a good ambush position. Having done this before, if one came to the bedroom door, I was in a good spot if I had to shoot.

Several folks hearing the bad guys, choose to explore and directly challenged. Some were easily ambushed themselves and disarmed. Some were shot. It was sobering for them.

Thus, I repeat that most folks, if serious - need some FOF. Reading some rather silly TX commando lads in recent threads - yeah, right.

About weapons choice - half the class was shotgun and 40% rifle- 223s (ARs, Mini-14s, AK-oids and a 223 Kel-tec) - the rest pistol caliber carbines.

One note first - the Kel-tec went belly up big time - the plastic back of the upper just crack clean off like a toy gun and toasted it. The owner commented that the gun had been back for repairs before. Oh, well. The ARs and AKs - no sweat for the most part - see above.

Karl said that his choice for a HD long arm was a rifle. Basically, shotguns are difficult to manipulate and shoot as compared to something like an AR. If a shotgun is to be used, he like a semi as compared to a pump. The latter became popular in classes because they are cheap and people bought them. Also, some folks like the image and the racking - sigh - the latter being baloney as a strategy. Strong verbal challenges serve you better. Stopping power is fundamentally the same for the two guns.

An HD rifle is best with a red dot for fast target acqisition at SD distances. I've been thinking this and currently have tritum night sights but I want an EOtech from the gun wish granter supernatural of choice.

All, in all - a great class, great instructors and a good time - despite the weather. On the way home, I stopped for some comfort food - French toast, eggs and coffee and read Enos' book. The storm had passed. Got home and saw the wife and kid. Took apart the AR - watched Saturday Night Live. Snored.

I have today off for MLK!

RevolverLover · January 15, 2007, 12:26 PM

Nice review! Your link for the website doesn't work.

Quote:

About weapons choice - half the class was shotgun and 40% rifle- 223s (ARs, Mini-14s, AK-oids and a 223 Kel-tec) - the rest pistol caliber carbines.

One note first - the Kel-tec went belly up big time - the plastic back of the upper just crack clean off like a toy gun and toasted it. The owner commented that the gun had been back for repairs before. Oh, well. The ARs and AKs - no sweat for the most part - see above.

Thats scary to read that about the Kel-tec. Do you know what model it was? Did he/she drop it? How did the Mini-14's perform? And what pistol caliber carbines were used?

Glenn E. Meyer · January 15, 2007, 12:41 PM

Fixed! The Kel-tec was the 223 - sorry - don't know more than that.

The back part of the upper that is involved with the stock swiveling down just broke clean off.

The pistol carbines used - a Beretta Storm in 9mm, an HK plastic box in 45 and a Marline Camp Carbine in 45.

RevolverLover · January 15, 2007, 12:59 PM

Quote:

The back part of the upper that is involved with the stock swiveling down just broke clean off.

Do you know if it happened when it was being fired or was it dropped or ?

Glenn E. Meyer · January 15, 2007, 01:54 PM

IIRC, the user noticed the stock was not in locked position, checked it and the piece came off.

Eghad · January 15, 2007, 02:02 PM

( www.krtraining.com ).

The prices are pretty good. I have a friend that lives in San Antonio. we might have to pay him a visit.

I have an EOTECH for my AR which is good for CQB. For longer ranges a front sight for cowitness is a good thing.

Denny Hansen · January 16, 2007, 10:26 AM

Great report, Glenn. I'm guessing that Karl covered the boreline-sightline issue with the AR platform at close range? Anyone have any problems getting used to it at and not having low shots at room distances?

Denny

Glenn E. Meyer · January 16, 2007, 11:33 AM

Yes, and we practiced - trying to get a sense of the body image and motor memory to place the shots well.

One thing, I forgot to mention was a neat drill on scanning. We were told to shoot target X from a high or low ready, then scan. If you did it well, you saw an instructor with a sign telling you to acquire and shoot another target to the left or right. Nice way to break tunnel vision.

Movement drills also - splash, splash.

Turns out I missed the tornado by a few minutes. Good think I futzed around the house before leaving.

I have another day off - San Antonio is iced, so no work. Unlike living in Buffalo - where we scraped off the crap and headed out. Yesterday, I cleaned out the gun closet and found out all the neat gadgets I bought and didn't remember.

Coltlover · January 17, 2007, 10:31 AM

Check out my post on the Kel-Tec. Not a good weekend for Kel-Tec's this is a SU-16CA or was an SU 16CA it has been in the shop before only has about 600 rounds through it. This happened while firing it I got lucky no injury.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=234850

January 15, 2007, 11:55 AM	#1
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Defensive Long Arm Class This Saturday, I took Karl Rehn's Defensive Long Arm class. I decided to do it with my AR. I had previously done some shotgun classes but not an AR one. You could take this class with either as it emphasized home defense usage. The class was held at Karl's place (www.krtraining.com). The weather was horrific. I had a long drive from San Antonio and had to pass through the remains of what seemed to be a mini-tornado on I-35 near San Marcos. Luckily the outlet mall was spared - :barf: . I did see a couple of pickups floating in the training ditches on the side of the road. One was about to try fit into the concrete arch of the ditch - ouch. Sheets of water, lightning and thunder. But I made it. The class emphasized using the gun from various positions, barricade, dominant and nondominant sides, with the gun not shoulder but a body index for an emergency. Sight pictures - etc. A nice go through of gun usage. I shot pretty well for me - surprisingly I shot better on the nondominant side. Huh - Karl says that happens as we get more careful when we do that. The gun ran fine except towards the end of the day with two failures to feed off a new mag after 150 rounds in the cold and rain. A generous helping of CLP aided that. We also did some inside the house FOF scenarios which I think are some of the most important parts of training. Basic scenarios were that you were in your house and heard the archetypal TV thief. Can you deal with it without getting killed? The core strategy was to 'ambush' the bad guy and not be an explorer or commando except if you have to save a loved one. Property was not worth fighting for. Despite claims that in TX you can just shoot away - Karl and his instructors made the point that depending on county, some TX DAs will take you or try to take you to trial on a defensive shooting. Internet commandos and lawyers be damned - one's head must rule the over the blood and guts rhetoric. I (pat myself on the back) got through the scenarios by calling the cops and sternly dissuading the criminal to leave from a good ambush position. Having done this before, if one came to the bedroom door, I was in a good spot if I had to shoot. Several folks hearing the bad guys, choose to explore and directly challenged. Some were easily ambushed themselves and disarmed. Some were shot. It was sobering for them. Thus, I repeat that most folks, if serious - need some FOF. Reading some rather silly TX commando lads in recent threads - yeah, right. About weapons choice - half the class was shotgun and 40% rifle- 223s (ARs, Mini-14s, AK-oids and a 223 Kel-tec) - the rest pistol caliber carbines. One note first - the Kel-tec went belly up big time - the plastic back of the upper just crack clean off like a toy gun and toasted it. The owner commented that the gun had been back for repairs before. Oh, well. The ARs and AKs - no sweat for the most part - see above. Karl said that his choice for a HD long arm was a rifle. Basically, shotguns are difficult to manipulate and shoot as compared to something like an AR. If a shotgun is to be used, he like a semi as compared to a pump. The latter became popular in classes because they are cheap and people bought them. Also, some folks like the image and the racking - sigh - the latter being baloney as a strategy. Strong verbal challenges serve you better. Stopping power is fundamentally the same for the two guns. An HD rifle is best with a red dot for fast target acqisition at SD distances. I've been thinking this and currently have tritum night sights but I want an EOtech from the gun wish granter supernatural of choice. All, in all - a great class, great instructors and a good time - despite the weather. On the way home, I stopped for some comfort food - French toast, eggs and coffee and read Enos' book. The storm had passed. Got home and saw the wife and kid. Took apart the AR - watched Saturday Night Live. Snored. I have today off for MLK! __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens Last edited by Glenn E. Meyer; January 15, 2007 at 12:39 PM.

January 15, 2007, 12:41 PM	#3
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Fixed! The Kel-tec was the 223 - sorry - don't know more than that. The back part of the upper that is involved with the stock swiveling down just broke clean off. The pistol carbines used - a Beretta Storm in 9mm, an HK plastic box in 45 and a Marline Camp Carbine in 45. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 15, 2007, 01:54 PM	#5
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	IIRC, the user noticed the stock was not in locked position, checked it and the piece came off. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 15, 2007, 02:02 PM	#6
Eghad Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 6,231	( www.krtraining.com ). The prices are pretty good. I have a friend that lives in San Antonio. we might have to pay him a visit. I have an EOTECH for my AR which is good for CQB. For longer ranges a front sight for cowitness is a good thing. __________________ Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member

January 16, 2007, 10:26 AM	#7
Denny Hansen Staff Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2001 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ Posts: 2,422	Great report, Glenn. I'm guessing that Karl covered the boreline-sightline issue with the AR platform at close range? Anyone have any problems getting used to it at and not having low shots at room distances? Denny __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

January 16, 2007, 11:33 AM	#8
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Yes, and we practiced - trying to get a sense of the body image and motor memory to place the shots well. One thing, I forgot to mention was a neat drill on scanning. We were told to shoot target X from a high or low ready, then scan. If you did it well, you saw an instructor with a sign telling you to acquire and shoot another target to the left or right. Nice way to break tunnel vision. Movement drills also - splash, splash. Turns out I missed the tornado by a few minutes. Good think I futzed around the house before leaving. I have another day off - San Antonio is iced, so no work. Unlike living in Buffalo - where we scraped off the crap and headed out. Yesterday, I cleaned out the gun closet and found out all the neat gadgets I bought and didn't remember. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 17, 2007, 10:31 AM	#9
Coltlover Member Join Date: December 27, 2006 Location: Well Here Of Course Posts: 74	Check out my post on the Kel-Tec. Not a good weekend for Kel-Tec's this is a SU-16CA or was an SU 16CA it has been in the shop before only has about 600 rounds through it. This happened while firing it I got lucky no injury. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=234850 __________________ “i'm so tired, sheep are counting me, no more struggle, no more energy, no more patient, you can write that down, it's all too crazy, i'm not sticking 'round”