speed draw par time...?

[Koda94]

from 7 to 10 yds whats an appropriate par time for drawing and firing a hit on target*?

Beginner, intermediate and advanced?
from concealed or open carry?




my google-fu isn't strong for me tonight. The best I can find is a 2 second par time from the "press-six" drill on pistol-training.com on the third string of fire...
http://pistol-training.com/drills/press-six

Im just looking for a simple draw and fire one shot on target baseline.

*note: not certain what target matters?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Size of the acceptable target zone definitely matters.

[Don P]

Competition, 1.5 seconds and less. Conceal carry should be the same. The average person can cover the distance of 21 feet(7 yards) in 1.5 seconds.

[hbhobby]

I consider myself beginner - intermediate and my fastest time has been 0.65 seconds. I can do with regular consistency 0.75. The fastest I have seen in person was 0.45. These mind you are all at competitive events, knowing the drill.
Being surprised on the street would be double or triple that, would be my guess. Situational awareness would be the limiting factor and decision that #1 threat, #2 lethal threat, #3 need to draw and shoot would take longer for this old guy to process than the actual draw and fire
Just my opinion

[1-DAB]

more interesting is your Bill Drill time. draw and fire 6 on target as fast as you can. target is 8" circle. have to get all 6 in the circle. you can read your first shot time off the timer as well as your total time and all splits.

my first shot is around 1.4

target at 7 yards.

[Frank Ettin]

At Gunsite par for two rounds center of mass (essentially in the "A" zone) from the holster at seven yards is 1.5 seconds. That's in the basic class. In the intermediate class it's also 1.5 seconds but with the addition of a side step.

[Koda94]

thanks everyone for the answer, very helpful.

[Deaf Smith]

Define 'concealed carry'.

See if it's in the appendix position, concealed, and you fire below eye level you can draw and fire very quickly. I've done it in less than one second, including reaction time, using a IPSC target. From behind the hip, again concealed, it's a bit slower.

But people who shoot maybe a box of ammo every few months practice and almost never practice drawing it might take 2 to 3 seconds.

Deaf

[Nanuk]

I have found that practice and training speed is one thing, pucker factor speed is another.

[Don Fischer]

Originally Posted by Don P

Competition, 1.5 seconds and less. Conceal carry should be the same. The average person can cover the distance of 21 feet(7 yards) in 1.5 seconds.

Is that from a standing start? Take's me about 40 min to do 21"! :-) I've heard for years that while speed matter's, more so is getting out smoothly and on target. Obviously the quicker you can do it smoothly the better off you are. I think it would probably pay to be aware of what's going on around you. I suppose a guy wanting to steal you lunch money might be hard to ID at 21" but he'll probably also be eyeballing you before he starts the attack.

[Don Fischer]

Originally Posted by 1-DAB

more interesting is your Bill Drill time. draw and fire 6 on target as fast as you can. target is 8" circle. have to get all 6 in the circle. you can read your first shot time off the timer as well as your total time and all splits.

my first shot is around 1.4

target at 7 yards.

That's interesting. If someone come's at you and can make it in 1.5 sec and your reaction time is 1.4 sec, you don't have to aim! I don't practice with speed. Buggered on it years ago when a couple guy's I knew shot themselves in the leg doing quick draw.

[James K]

Six shots sort of makes me think the gun is a DA revolver, so don't get in the habit of emptying your gun at the first threat. Clicking the heck out of the second BG (or six misses) has no effect.

Jim

[Deaf Smith]

I have found that practice and training speed is one thing, pucker factor speed is another.

Well then one needs to 'train' with an electric dog collar I guess! Or someone behind them with an airsoft gun and zaps them now and then.

Deaf

[ShootistPRS]

One and a half seconds is pretty close to normal time to draw and fire when you are expecting it. When you are surprised then add on three quarters to one additional seconds.
I takes your eye 1/20 of a second to see the problem and about a half second to begin a reaction.

[MarkCO]

Draw and accurately fire 1 shot into no more than an 8" target at 5 yards...1 second is pretty good. Top guys can do it in the .5 to .6 range after some warm ups (mind you, not quick draw with hammer slapped SAs which is half that) but are typically in the 1 second range in competition. Beginners in the 3+ second range and intermediate in the 1.5 to 2.0 second range. My 15 year old is under 1 second consistently. He went from 2 seconds to 1 second in about 3 weeks with some dryfire practice.

But take those same folks to a FoF course and give them airsoft, draw and hit from surprise is in the 1.5-3 second range for the top guys. It is 5+ for inexperienced folks, with an associated significant decline in hit percentage. Skilled shooters rarely lose the hit percentage by anything significant.

[stephen426]

I did a Tueller drill with a dummy mounted on wheels on a pulley system at a practical shoot. I was second in line so I only got to see one person run the drill before I went. I was openly carrying my Glock 43 in an IWB holster (meaning no cover to sweep away).

The guy who was pulling the dummy purposely tried to distract me by asking if I knew the drill. As soon as I turned my head towards him, he took off. Fortunately, I had a friend filming me running the drill so I could analyze my performance. It was the first time shooting the Glock 43 and I was pretty happy with it.

I reacted pretty quickly to him taking off. By the time he got 2 steps away, I had the gun clear of the holster. While the iPhone allows me to scroll through the video slowly, it only shows time in one second increments. I was able to draw and fire 2 shots within 1 second, then I side stepped and made a headshot in less than a second. The dummy had moved nearly half the distance by the time I got the first shot off.

Breaking it down into frames (iPhone records at 30 frames per second), my first shot occurred about half a second from the draw. I can count 7 distinct frames between my first and second shot, which works out to .23 seconds. The 3rd shot, which involved a sidestep took another .5 seconds. The dummy was about 6 feet from my position when I took the last shot.

My first 2 shots were a little high and left of center. There were 4 inches apart and hit the area between the right pectoral and right shoulder. The second shot was right above the ear.

While I'm sure I could have done better, I was pretty happy with my reaction to the guy taking off on me unexpectedly. It was also my first time running a drill like this. It was also the first time shooting that gun so point of aim may have been off slightly. Overall, not bad for a first attempt. By the way, this was somewhere between aimed fire and point shooting. I picked up the front sight and did a double tap, and then picked up the front sight for the head shot.

[1stmar]

Hbhobby those are definetly not beginner to intermediate times. Those are M- GM times. congrats. MarkCo captured it well. Bill drills will not help you draw times much but will help your shot to shot times and help you understand the rhythm of you gun and get you into the zone. Dont focus on how fast you can move your arms, focus on how quickly you can pick up your front sight on the way to the target. It's important to come out of the holster with a good grip. Use your thumbs as an index for your front sight.

[jmorris]

from 7 to 10 yds whats an appropriate par time for drawing and firing a hit on target*?

What's the target? What holster? Any concealment? Are you including reaction time or just actual time to draw and fire?

2 seconds is quite a long time, like react to the buzzer on a timer and draw then two to the body and one to the head of a humanoid target in less time at 7 yards, with normal gun game gear.

Then there is the very impressive almost unbelievable speed of the late Bob Munden.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5WjkI5FuP0

[MarkCO]

I have yet to see anyone who has not practiced regularly, be able to produce a video, or on demand at the range, make a sub 1 second draw and accurate hit on pretty much anything other than contact distance.

It is kind of like the folks who say they shoot 1/4" groups all day long with their Rem 700, but it always seems to be too windy or their video recorder did not work.

[Art Eatman]

In 1981, before the days of race guns and speed holsters, most of us in our IPSC club could respond to the buzzer, draw and fire from an open-carry holster in around one second. IPSC Major loads. 7 to 10 yards. All 1911s.

The best I could do on the Steel Challenge "Double Trouble" was 1.3 seconds. I've seen Chip McCormick and a few others do it in 1.03.

Perfect scores for "El Presidente" drills: I've seen numerous 5.0 runs with old-days 1911s and IPSC major ammo. I've done 8.0 with hardball GI loads; 1911 with a trigger job and MMC sights.

I was a Class B shooter. Middle of the road, I guess.

[1stmar]

Koda94 assuming you are referring to uspsa matches or the like, 1-1.5 sec would be very good (M) to good (B/C). The draw is important on speed stages or low round count but less important on field high round count stages. Reload times are generally more important IMO since almost every stage has at least one and generally has more than one. With the draw you may give up .5 sec or so on your competition, if you're not competitive with your reloads you can give up .5-1.5 sec on a stage very easily depending on the stage.

[Big Shrek]

I have found that practice and training speed is one thing, pucker factor speed is another.

Ain't that the ever-lovin truth!!

[Brit]

As a new American, since 2011 a citizen. My young man years, aged 25 till 30. 1960, till 1965.
I was a Bouncer in Liverpool UK. A rough Sea Port. When you start in that job, you had to think your way through fights! It was all new.
Then you start to see the dance, for what it was, your antagonists, all though they were new people every time, followed a pattern! The stance, the aggression, even the words, were the same.

And each group of young men were out for a night out, 3 or 4 of them, a group.
Wedding rings in the pocket, in lots of cases, looking for trouble.

And here is the difference between a CCW American, not a fighter, just a Citizen of most types. Before I get a ticket home handed to me! Let me explain.

Four typical chaps out for Friday night, our trouble night, normally. In from work, quick wash, a rapid bite to eat, out on the bus, to the Big City.

Now they end up, crowded in the doorway, at say the Cavern Club, of Beatles fame, I worked there, Thur/Fri/Sat, 60 till 64.

Our job, keep the ones we perceived as trouble out! And away from our 15-year-old girls, made up to look like 20! And hi heels, short skirts.

There were two types of Door Staff, the ones on the door, the ones who just showed the flag, so to speak, walking around downstairs.

Me at 5'10" just shy of 15 stone. And I worked with George, 6'2" all bone and muscle, or Larry, just 6' and lean (found out he was SAS after he passed away) we had a license to hit! Not like now, earpiece, SECURITY on tee shirts, keep the piece type of job.

The thinking part of the fight? Not there at all. Translate that to a produce gun, shoot? Everyone now has to think of Cell phone cameras, 911 on you, etc. Which unless you are a Navy Seal or Green Berry? Spelled that wrong!
You hesitate.

You are a law-abiding citizen, and looking after your self, and significant other, with a pistol, for the first time!

I have pointed Guns at people before, no hesitation, no massive adrenalin rush, stimulass, gun out. No need to shoot. Person/persons quit what they were up too. All's well that ended well.

But I think my years of open season on Yoboes, has been good for me.

[zincwarrior]

Six shots sort of makes me think the gun is a DA revolver, so don't get in the habit of emptying your gun at the first threat. Clicking the heck out of the second BG (or six misses) has no effect.

Jim
__________________
Jim K

I am probably misperceiving Jim but I think they are referring to a Bill Drill, which was designed: 1) to test your grip and equipment via a multiple rapid fire test; 2) to just be fun as heck [blasting away 6 times as fast as you can is just plain fun].

Apologies if I am restating the obvious and this is not meant to be critical.

EDIT: seeing everyone's excellent par times, makes me feel bad.

[fastbolt]

"Timing" how long it takes in order to draw and accurately fire on a threat target has a lot to do with the conditions under which it's happening.

On the training/practice range you're expecting to shoot, probably know how to identify the threat target(s) from the non-shoot targets, the safe background has been determined for you and the emphasis is on the task at hand (meaning you're not otherwise engaged in actual activities far removed from drawing and shooting guns).

Also, and this one matters ... you're not at imminent risk of serious bodily injury or death by the "attacker" threat target. This can change things for a lot of folks, especially folks who have never faced serious danger.

Then, there can be a difference between just trying to deal with the effects of physical (muscular) stress, versus trying to overcome the unwanted effects of a hormonal fear response.

In one manner of thinking, thinking the answer lies in the isolated (to the static range) measurement of draw speed when it comes to a successful use of a handgun, is kind of like trying to measure someone's speed and ability to punch a bag, and using that measurement for predicting how successful they might be in defending themselves.

Will they react quickly and smoothly .... or will they experience the freeze part of the freeze, flight or fight psychological reaction?

Will they be able to unconsciously, and effectively, draw upon their static "training" when in the midst of a fear-driven hormonal response?

If someone is just looking to improve, smooth and quicken their normal draw/presentation? Lots of folks have already offered some normal observations about a desirable "average" timing goal ... mechanically ... meaning being able to draw and make an accurate hit, at 5-7yds, from under actual (realistic) concealment garments, using a normal carry holster, within 1.5 seconds.

In the "plainclothes/street tactics" class I attended many years ago, the students (all working cops) were told that being able to consistently get a solid, accurate hit on the threat target, drawing their working guns from under working concealment garments, ought to be able to happen in no more than 1.5 seconds, and faster was better (as long as accuracy and personal weapon handling safety didn't suffer).

It was offered as a goal for the average working cop, of average shooting skill.

Just looking to measure "sheer speed" of a draw, presentation and firing can be a distraction, or even a hindrance, though. Some folks find themselves ending up using a timer to measure how quickly they can make mistakes.

Learn and train to develop the skills. Learn to do it smoothly, and then work to do it smoothly consistently. Speed can be the consequence of proper skills development.