Issues at the Range

[USAF Ret]

Went to the range today. First of all, took too much and tried to do too much. From now on, I am limiting myself to no more than 2 guns.

1) I took some 308 reloads to check velocity. Pulled my CVA out of the case, my hunting rifle, to check baseline speeds before my reloads. Shot a 3 group string. Could have fit a quarter over it, but it was 4 inches high from when I last shot it. So, went to adjusting it back and seemed that for every adjustment I made either POA would hardly move or jump way past where I was trying to hit.

2) HOWA 1500 I took out last time would not group. Found out the screws were loose from installing aftermarket stock. Tightened those down and expected to get it zeroed. Nope, still all over the map. Rechecked stock and scope screws. All tightened to specs. So, need to start troubleshooting that. Scope? Ammo? Aftermarket stock? Or just a lemon?

3) ALL of my reloads were shooting about 100 fps less than advertised. It was about 45 degrees today.

5) Tried to measure my 30-30 loads, but with the tube below it, the strap on chrono would not measure speed. Too much space.

I reckon it happens. Some trips things go well and feeling like I got stuff dialed in and the next time I feel like you have no idea what I am doing.

Can someone get me some cheese with my whine?

[USAF Ret]

Replaced the scope. We shall see what happens. Scope on it was a Vortex Diamondback. I cannot see an ammunition causing 8 inch groups and some off paper. I was shooting Norma Tipstrike 140 grain. Next trip I will use Norma Whitetail.

Next step, if that does not work, is drop it back into the original Hogue stock that came with it.

[stagpanther]

You might want to take a look at the bore and muzzle crown, a bad ding on the bullet's way out can throw your groups. Good idea IMO to return to original stock.

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

You might want to take a look at the bore and muzzle crown, a bad ding on the bullet's way out can throw your groups. Good idea IMO to return to original stock.

It has a threaded barrel with a brake. In my testing, I may remove the brake and put the end cap back on. I am going to do one step at a time to see if I can nail it down. Next trip will be with the scope. I would like to carry the stock and change it at the range if that doesn't work, but you are not allowed to do repairs on the shooting bench.

Thank you!

[taylorce1]

Magnetospeed speed sporters aren't great for lever actions? There is a HACK for that.

#1 issue with your CVA. Your scope could be bad, I like to shoot two groups same POA before I make scope adjustments. I can tolerate a little error in adjustment on an optic for hunting, but I want it to be close to click value.

#2 Howa 1500 issues. What stock did you put it in? Is the barreled action binding in any way in the stock? Does it have pillars, or has it been bedded? What scope and mounting system are you using? What ammunition are you shooting?

Smart only changing one thing at a time.

With both rifles, it could be you haven't shot a large enough sample size of your reloads or factory ammunition yet. This Hornady Podcast made me think I need to go back and look at some of the things I do at the range. It also explains how I can be chasing my tail if my group sample isnt large enough.

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by taylorce1

Magnetospeed speed sporters aren't great for lever actions? There is a HACK for that.

#1 issue with your CVA. Your scope could be bad, I like to shoot two groups same POA before I make scope adjustments. I can tolerate a little error in adjustment on an optic for hunting, but I want it to be close to click value.

#2 Howa 1500 issues. What stock did you put it in? Is the barreled action binding in any way in the stock? Does it have pillars, or has it been bedded? What scope and mounting system are you using? What ammunition are you shooting?

Smart only changing one thing at a time.

With both rifles, it could be you haven't shot a large enough sample size of your reloads or factory ammunition yet. This Hornady Podcast made me think I need to go back and look at some of the things I do at the range. It also explains how I can be chasing my tail if my group sample isnt large enough.

Chad, much appreciated. I did not think about the scope on the CVA. It has a Burris.

HOWA - Bell and Carlson straight drop in with no other bedding. Using a Talley rail and Monstrum rings. Shooting Norma Tipstrike 140 grain.

I will definite watch the video and take a look at the hack on the Magnetospeed. I have most of next week off. If I am not hunting, I will be at the range...unless it is down in the 20s all week.

[taylorce1]

I missed one important thing, never shoot groups for accuracy with your Magnetospeed attached.

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by taylorce1

I missed one important thing, never shoot groups for accuracy with your Magnetospeed attached.

Um, that may have been my issue with the CVA. I think Shadow9MM told me the same, but I have a case of CRS. Changes barrel harmonics.

I probably completely screwed up the zero on my rifles. Wasted ammo, but more brass to reload. Glass half full.

[jetinteriorguy]

You might try mounting the magnetospeed on the side of the barrel. I’ve often thought this might work but haven’t tried it yet, not sure if the strap will fit between the tube and the barrel. Or maybe it’s doable wrapping the strap around the tube, although this might damage the tube. Just some thoughts.

[old roper]

USAF Ret.

I have 2 chronographs. Oehler 35P/Magnetospeed V3. I haven't had any problem with V3

[USAF Ret]

Thank you for the suggestions.

[Rimfire5]

As for the "100 fps below advertised" concern.
A 100-fps difference is a pretty big difference.

Most advertised statements don't quote the temperature that they were shot at.
With a temperature sensitive powder, MV can change 1.24 fps per degree F.
If the advertised data was recorded at 90 degrees and your rounds were shot at 45 degrees, your velocity drop would be about 56 fps.

There is also a factor of barrel length. If your barrel was 20-inches and the advertised was shot with a 24-inch barrel, the muzzle velocity in the 20-inch barrel would also be lower.

The combined effects could be big, but 100 fps is a pretty big difference.
Of course, advertisers never claim that their chronographs are tested and validated.
Then again, you might have been having problems with your own chronograph, as well.

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by Rimfire5

As for the "100 fps below advertised" concern.
A 100-fps difference is a pretty big difference.

Most advertised statements don't quote the temperature that they were shot at.
With a temperature sensitive powder, MV can change 1.24 fps per degree F.
If the advertised data was recorded at 90 degrees and your rounds were shot at 45 degrees, your velocity drop would be about 56 fps.

There is also a factor of barrel length. If your barrel was 20-inches and the advertised was shot with a 24-inch barrel, the muzzle velocity in the 20-inch barrel would also be lower.

The combined effects could be big, but 100 fps is a pretty big difference.
Of course, advertisers never claim that their chronographs are tested and validated.
Then again, you might have been having problems with your own chronograph, as well.

I relooked at my data when I got home and the delta overall was less than I thought. Also noticed my chrono was reading way low at first and then started reading normal on factory ammo. Thinking I may need to plug it in and let it warm up for about 20 min, like a powder charger.

[Rimfire5]

That sounds more like the reason for that big a difference.
Just like my Chargemaster 1500 - it too has to warm up.
I power it up and let it sit for at least 20 minutes before I calibrate it, otherwise it does some pretty strange things.

But don't forget that cold temperatures will also drop muzzle velocity if you are not using a temperature insensitive powder.

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by Rimfire5

That sounds more like the reason for that big a difference.
Just like my Chargemaster 1500 - it too has to warm up.
I power it up and let it sit for at least 20 minutes before I calibrate it, otherwise it does some pretty strange things.

But don't forget that cold temperatures will also drop muzzle velocity if you are not using a temperature insensitive powder.

Much appreciated. I will keep both in mind. I have figured on several loads I can go to max without pressure issues. I have a decent baseline. Just going to do group testing with about a grain or two difference near the top and not worry about the velocity, as it's freezing cold right now and not a normal temp for NC.

[USAF Ret]

Well, took the 270 back out with the original stock and new scope. Groups were better, I was hitting the target, but still about a 5" spread. Took it to the gunsmith and we did an inspection on the hogue stock. Huge movement all over when I wiggled the forearm. So, had the B&C bedded. Taking out again this weekend to see if I can get decent groups.

[jmr40]

Temperature effects some powders from 2-3 fps per inch. Most are measured at 70 degrees. At 45 degrees that would be 50-75 fps slower. But not all powders are that sensitive, some of the better ones would only see 1/2 fps velocity loss. With those powders 25 degrees wouldn't be enough to measure velocity loss.

Advertised velocities are almost always optimistic. It's not that they are being deceptive, it's just their testing methods are different than you'd see with most common rifles. And 100 fps isn't unusual at all.

They test with 24 or 26" barrels with match grade chambers and bores. The closer the tolerances the more speed you'll get. Common hunting rifles are almost never manufactured to tolerances that close and will never see those speeds. And you lose a little with shorter 20-24" barrels.

No 2 rifles will get the same speeds even with equal length barrels. I have a Winchester 30-06 and a Remington 30-06. Both with 22" barrels. The Winchester is about 90 fps faster with the same loads. That is on the high end, but 25-50 fps is perfectly normal. It is also not unheard of for individual 22" barrels to shoot faster than another 24" barrel.

If you have the B&C Medalist with the aluminum chassis molded into the stock it should be better than the Hogue. They make 2 versions of the Hogue. One with pillars, one with the chassis. The one with the chassis should be OK, but those are HEAVY. Close to double the weight of most common factory stocks.

The B&C should not need to be bedded to give decent accuracy.

Be careful about throwing money at a rifle. Between the costs of ammo, stocks, scopes, and paying a gunsmith you can quickly spend more than the rifle is worth and still not get satisfactory results. There comes a time to cut the losses and move on. I'd have already done that. There are too many other rifles out there that will give you the accuracy you seek.

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by jmr40

Temperature effects some powders from 2-3 fps per inch. Most are measured at 70 degrees. At 45 degrees that would be 50-75 fps slower. But not all powders are that sensitive, some of the better ones would only see 1/2 fps velocity loss. With those powders 25 degrees wouldn't be enough to measure velocity loss.

Advertised velocities are almost always optimistic. It's not that they are being deceptive, it's just their testing methods are different than you'd see with most common rifles. And 100 fps isn't unusual at all.

They test with 24 or 26" barrels with match grade chambers and bores. The closer the tolerances the more speed you'll get. Common hunting rifles are almost never manufactured to tolerances that close and will never see those speeds. And you lose a little with shorter 20-24" barrels.

No 2 rifles will get the same speeds even with equal length barrels. I have a Winchester 30-06 and a Remington 30-06. Both with 22" barrels. The Winchester is about 90 fps faster with the same loads. That is on the high end, but 25-50 fps is perfectly normal. It is also not unheard of for individual 22" barrels to shoot faster than another 24" barrel.

If you have the B&C Medalist with the aluminum chassis molded into the stock it should be better than the Hogue. They make 2 versions of the Hogue. One with pillars, one with the chassis. The one with the chassis should be OK, but those are HEAVY. Close to double the weight of most common factory stocks.

The B&C should not need to be bedded to give decent accuracy.

Be careful about throwing money at a rifle. Between the costs of ammo, stocks, scopes, and paying a gunsmith you can quickly spend more than the rifle is worth and still not get satisfactory results. There comes a time to cut the losses and move on. I'd have already done that. There are too many other rifles out there that will give you the accuracy you seek.

The stock isn't the Medalist. It is the standard stock. The Hogue, not sure which one that is. It is heavy.
This will be the last dollar I spend on the rifle. If this does not get the accuracy I am looking for, I will trade it for something else or just sell it.

Yes, I did not take into account the barrel length. I think that accounts for the difference in speed. Thank you.

[taylorce1]

The rifle is a Howa, so it should have the aluminum bedding block. That doesn't mean additional bedding won't help it. I have a Savage in an Accustock that I had to have work done on to get it to sit in the stock properly. There was something off in the stock that canted the action when torqued down, bedding fixed the issue and now there is no cant in the rifle.

I'd have done things differently and probably would have had Savage replace the stock under warranty. However, I'd already paid to have the stock hydro dipped. You know that old adage "don't shoot the donor", well you might want to at least mount a scope and see if everything is square before tearing down and rebuilding into something new.

[FrankenMauser]

Run a box test for the scope.

Bed the action in the new stock.

100 fps is pretty notable, unless you're normally shooting in 100+ F temps. I'd suspect the measurement tool before *all* of the powders being that sensitive.
I have tested almost a dozen powders from sub-freezing to over 104 F (testing for velocity change, as well as group size and vertical shift). Some got pretty angry in the cold, and some got demonic in the heat. But velocity swings of ~100 fps took big temperature swings and fewer powders than expected showed enough change to worry about. (Ironically, two of the worst performing powders were advertised and "known to be" 'temperature insensitive'.)

5) Tried to measure my 30-30 loads, but with the tube below it, the strap on chrono would not measure speed. Too much space.

Mount it over the top.

[stagpanther]

I have two Howa 1500 actions and they have a couple of characteristics that might be related to what you're experiencing.

My two rifles have light sporter barrels to begin with--so I can't just go banging merrily away with lots of shots or else the accuracy wanders. Also, a consistent hold (as with any rifle) is important for repeatable accuracy. More than likely IMO you are having a fitment of the action to the stock--any stock--issue.

Hogue stocks generally have an aluminum pillar bedding, check it over to see if there is any metal flashing/burrs that might create uneveness. Howa uses a rather unusual recoil lug that features a forward taper, depending upon how deep the lug slot in the stock is and how the action is positioned it's fairly easy to get a less than optimal positioning of the lug in the stock. That's one of my "usual suspects" for action movement of a Howa in a stock.

The other rather unique characteristic is how far back the rear action screw is--the B&C stock that I put a Vanguard in (same as Howa 1500) there's not a whole lot there to support the rearmost part of the receiver. I think torquing down hard on that rear screw could easily compress the rear of the bedding and create an asymmetry.

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by FrankenMauser

Run a box test for the scope.

Bed the action in the new stock.

100 fps is pretty notable, unless you're normally shooting in 100+ F temps. I'd suspect the measurement tool before *all* of the powders being that sensitive.
I have tested almost a dozen powders from sub-freezing to over 104 F (testing for velocity change, as well as group size and vertical shift). Some got pretty angry in the cold, and some got demonic in the heat. But velocity swings of ~100 fps took big temperature swings and fewer powders than expected showed enough change to worry about. (Ironically, two of the worst performing powders were advertised and "known to be" 'temperature insensitive'.)


Mount it over the top.

Can't mount it on top. Has a hooded front sight.

Barrel length was why I may have seen speed differences. Also noticed after it was warmed up a while, it showed speed increase. Contacted the company and got some good tips from them.

Thanks.

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

I have two Howa 1500 actions and they have a couple of characteristics that might be related to what you're experiencing.

My two rifles have light sporter barrels to begin with--so I can't just go banging merrily away with lots of shots or else the accuracy wanders. Also, a consistent hold (as with any rifle) is important for repeatable accuracy. More than likely IMO you are having a fitment of the action to the stock--any stock--issue.

Hogue stocks generally have an aluminum pillar bedding, check it over to see if there is any metal flashing/burrs that might create uneveness. Howa uses a rather unusual recoil lug that features a forward taper, depending upon how deep the lug slot in the stock is and how the action is positioned it's fairly easy to get a less than optimal positioning of the lug in the stock. That's one of my "usual suspects" for action movement of a Howa in a stock.

The other rather unique characteristic is how far back the rear action screw is--the B&C stock that I put a Vanguard in (same as Howa 1500) there's not a whole lot there to support the rearmost part of the receiver. I think torquing down hard on that rear screw could easily compress the rear of the bedding and create an asymmetry.

This is a view of the HOWA stock. Looks like just a fiberglass channel.

[stagpanther]

My Hogue stock has full-length pillar/bedding and it's exposed so I can see the aluminum--but it's pretty old and maybe they cover it now with the fibergoo. I can't tell from your pic how extensive the aluminum bedding is. Just my opinion, but having the action screw torque points at the extreme ends of the receiver/bedding means that any unevenness in between will very likely show up as movement--think of a seesaw. Lots of shooters love Howa's front screw/lug arrangement, but I'm not one of them, I prefer the front screw off by itself and a deeper lug slot in the stock. Either way, I found that I must bed my Howa/vanguards really well with a high-quality strong epoxy--I forget the name of the stuff (I'm overseas at the moment) but Bart B. on this forum knows the name of the stuff. Don't overlook bedding of the bottom metal cut-outs as well. Hopefully Scorch will weigh in with his wisdom.

[USAF Ret]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

My Hogue stock has full-length pillar/bedding and it's exposed so I can see the aluminum--but it's pretty old and maybe they cover it now with the fibergoo. I can't tell from your pic how extensive the aluminum bedding is. Just my opinion, but having the action screw torque points at the extreme ends of the receiver/bedding means that any unevenness in between will very likely show up as movement--think of a seesaw. Lots of shooters love Howa's front screw/lug arrangement, but I'm not one of them, I prefer the front screw off by itself and a deeper lug slot in the stock. Either way, I found that I must bed my Howa/vanguards really well with a high-quality strong epoxy--I forget the name of the stuff (I'm overseas at the moment) but Bart B. on this forum knows the name of the stuff. Don't overlook bedding of the bottom metal cut-outs as well. Hopefully Scorch will weigh in with his wisdom.

I just had the bed the B&C stock I had bought for it. Let's me know I cannot just buy a stock and drop it in.