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Old September 4, 2022, 05:27 PM   #1
Marco Califo
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45 ACP, Glock and Lead Bullets

I have a 45 ACP Glock 30. I have Jacketed, and Plated Bullets, but also have 500 very hard cast (Brinnel 18 - 22) in 185 and 200 grains.
Glocks come with polygonal bores, and they warn against using Lead bullets, but many people do, with no issues with leading. I have seen other reports of leading problems developing before emptying one magazine.
I am using BE-86 and CFEPistol, at warmish loads (midway between start & max). They should be moving around 1100 fps.
So, am I heading for trouble?
I have been thinking that hard cast bullets are less likely to leave lead in the barrel. Yes, I know barrels are made with normal rifling. That is not my question. My question is about leading in Glock factory barrels.
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Old September 5, 2022, 10:18 AM   #2
totaldla
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I'm not sure why this keeps coming up - going on 30yrs.
All I can say is that I have never seen evidence of a badly leaded glock barrel. And I certainly have never seen evidence of leading causing damage. Oh I've seen quazi-investigations of kabooms where some very bad thinking implicated barrel leading - and of course the low-IQ forum parrots repeat these cases over and over when they lack something useful to say.

I personally have shot uncountable numbers of cast lead bullets, hardness ranging from 12 to 20+, through a Gen 2 G21, gen 2 G19, and gen 3 G19 with hardly more than a slight streaking of lead. And I load pistol cartridges to their potential.

I don't know what to tell you really. I'm older and if I bought a brand new Glock something it would not see a jacketed bullet except for fancy hollow points. And I wouldn't give it a thought beyond peeking down the barrel to see how things are going, exactly as I do with every pistol I own.

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Old September 5, 2022, 10:28 AM   #3
Marco Califo
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Sounds good. It is Glock's own warning that bothers me. I will proceed, and shoot 25 rounds of each next range trip.
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Old September 5, 2022, 10:49 AM   #4
74A95
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I've had lead buildup in a Glock barrel when firing swaged lead bullets. I've seen a little lead buildup with cast bullets, but not nearly as bad as swaged.

Polymer coated lead bullets show no lead so far.
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Old September 5, 2022, 03:19 PM   #5
higgite
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totaldla View Post
I'm not sure why this keeps coming up - going on 30yrs.
Maybe this is why...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco Califo View Post
It is Glock's own warning....
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Old September 5, 2022, 03:39 PM   #6
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Sounds good. It is Glock's own warning that bothers me.
I can understand that, but considering GLock has, from day one said reloaded ammo voids the warranty I wouldn't let it bother me a lot..

While I don't use the powders you are, I think 1100fps is more than a bit "warmish". IT is the max listed speed in some of the data I have for a 185gr jacketed, but your gun isn't the test gun, and polygonal bores tend to turn in higher speeds than conventional rifling.
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Old September 5, 2022, 04:47 PM   #7
Marco Califo
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While I don't use the powders you are, I think 1100fps is more than a bit "warmish". IT is the max listed speed in some of the data I have for a 185gr jacketed
My data sources:
Speer 185.PNG
HDC 200.PNG
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Old September 5, 2022, 06:44 PM   #8
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Your links don't provide what gun those loads were fired from. One of my 45s has a 5" barrel. Another has a 4" barrel, and one is a carbine, velocity of the same load differs between all three. Not counting my 7.5" Ruger

11 and a half from a 4" .45 is pretty smokin. From a 6" still what I would consider warm using the ACP case.
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Old September 5, 2022, 10:19 PM   #9
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Hodgdon data is from a 5" barrel.

I suspect Speer's is, too, but can't verify that. In Speer 14 they used a 4.4" barrel, but the MVs are slower than shown in Marco's link (Speer 185.PNG) for the same powder charges, so I suspect Speer used a 5" barrel for their latest data.
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Old September 5, 2022, 11:36 PM   #10
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I suspect Speer used a 5" barrel for their latest data.
See in sequence
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...2&postcount=25
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...7&postcount=27

Both Speer and Hodgdon appear to have problems -- internally and between their own publications. In addition, Speer has to be using something longer that a 5" barrel in the online data -- tho' nothing listed.

I tending to not trust anything now in 45ACP data unless I've chronographed it in fact.

Troubling....

.

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Old September 5, 2022, 11:49 PM   #11
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I wonder what length barrel Speer claims to use in their 15th Edition. Anybody here have one?
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Old September 6, 2022, 09:21 AM   #12
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I can tell you that the AA5 load velocity is accurate from a 5" barrel, roughly 60fps less from a 4". I've burned a lot of AA5 in the 45acp. I always liked a warm 185gr.
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Old September 6, 2022, 11:38 AM   #13
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I tending to not trust anything now in 45ACP data unless I've chronographed it in fact.
NO reloading data, online or in books, is anything other than a guideline, until you have tested it in YOUR gun, with your components.

Individual gun VARY. Even identical make, model, caliber, and barrel length guns VARY. Each individual round of ammo, varies. EVERYTHING has tolerances.

Most of the time, the differences are small enough not to be significant, which is why the load data serves as reasonably good guidelines, but sometimes the differences are large enough to be significant, and every gun/ammo combination has the potential to significantly differ from the next.

Chronographs are neat. Great tools, they tell you what you are actually getting for velocity. This can be a good thing to know. But they are also the "boulevard of broken dreams" at least as much as they are an "avenue of delight", because reality isn't always what people assume it is.

And, different guns also treat pressure differently. Again, the majority are very close to each other, but there are some at each end of the bell curve, and the only way to know for certain is testing them by shooting.

Here's an example of something uncommon but not unknown. from my personal experience,

Three different pistols with 6" barrels. Book data for the load was also from a 6" pistol. The chrono showed a 100fps difference in MV between the "slowest" and the "Fastest" guns, all shooting the same ammo. And, the slowest gun was 70fps faster than the book data!!!

On the other side of the coin, a friend of mine loved his .270 Wby, until a chronograph showed him that his .270 Win was actually shooting 30fps faster than his Wby. An unusual thing but it was the truth. With a different WBY or a different Win almost certain his results would have been different.
Sometimes the stars line up so you get more than the book says. Sometimes you get what the book got, and sometimes you get less than the book got. It is what it is, and the only way you know what you will get is to test it yourself and see what you got.
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Old September 6, 2022, 08:22 PM   #14
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NO reloading data, online or in books, is anything other than a guideline
Agreed, and has been my philosophy for as long as I've been in this game.
But the 230gr/45ACP/Universal/Longshot experience just now was so out
of the ballpark as to be (darkly) laughable.
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Old September 7, 2022, 12:18 AM   #15
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Is that related to this thread? Glocks? Leading?
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Old September 7, 2022, 12:47 AM   #16
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The relationship is that 1100 fps is quite a bit more than "warmish" in .45 ACP, especially with a lead bullet.

Hodgdon's on-line data for Winchester 231 (which is what I use) shows three bullets in 185 grain for the .45 ACP. The maximum loads for each yield velocities of 870, 906, and 1001 fps. I load Berry's plated lead 185-grain bullets over 5.3 grains, which should be a mid-range load, and the velocity (checked with a chronograph) ranged from 649 to 698 fps.
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Old September 7, 2022, 12:34 PM   #17
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A long time ago, I created a load for the Speer 200gr "flying ashtray" that clocked a measured 998fps from my 4.25" Browning BDA/Sig P220. It was above publlshed max back then (almost certainly is now) so I'm not going to say what it was, only that it worked in my gun and showed no pressure signs. was quite "snappy" though.

I'm fairly sure that load under a 185gr from a 5" would probably crack 1100fps.

however, that load was also too hot for the 1911A1 "pin gun" we tried some in. In that gun every round cratered primers.

what you can get from a load doesn't just depend on the load or barrel length alone, it also depends on what gun is shooting it. And always remember that "safe" and "suitable" are not exactly the same thing. Suitable is always safe, but safe (meaning it functions properly and without immediate damage) isn't always suitable.

Proof loads are "safe" that is proven by the gun surviving them without breaking, but they are in no way suitable for use.
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Old September 7, 2022, 12:49 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
The relationship is that 1100 fps is quite a bit more than "warmish" in .45 ACP, especially with a lead bullet.

Hodgdon's on-line data for Winchester 231 (which is what I use) shows three bullets in 185 grain for the .45 ACP. The maximum loads for each yield velocities of 870, 906, and 1001 fps. I load Berry's plated lead 185-grain bullets over 5.3 grains, which should be a mid-range load, and the velocity (checked with a chronograph) ranged from 649 to 698 fps.
1100+fps is doable with AA5 and XTP bullets (5" barrel) without hitting +p territory. Was my favorite carry load back when I carried a 1911. Nice shooting load for me. I still run my cast lead 185gr at about 1150fps (5").
My point is that the 45acp is only limited by the propellant and the shooter's tastes. Some guys like their 185gr @950fps and some like it zippier..
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Old September 7, 2022, 03:35 PM   #19
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Lots of noise about velocity and pressure in the 45. 1100 fps with a 185 bullet in a 5" barrel is no big deal, and several powders will do that and exceed that with +P pressure.

Pressure: the 45 Auto max pressure is 21,000 psi. The +P max is 23,000 psi. The 45 Proof load minimum is 31,000 psi. A big number, yes, but the standard pressure limit max for the 45 Super is 28,000 psi, the 450 SMC max is 32,000 psi, and the 460 Rowland is 40,000 psi.
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Old September 8, 2022, 12:30 AM   #20
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My point is that the 45acp is only limited by the propellant and the shooter's tastes.
AND THE GUN BEING USED! Don't forget that.
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Old September 24, 2022, 02:38 PM   #21
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My fast lead loads did not work out. 3 of 3 failed to extract, and there are dark smudges in the Glock polygon bore. End of test. my 45 plated loads have worked fine.
So, I am shopping for a Lone Wolf Alpha rifled barrel, for future lead loadings, which will be slower.

HDC shows Winchester 231 was one of the slowest powders used for 45 ACP
185 GR. HDY JSWC, so I think that is apples to oranges, compared to CFE Pistol.

Manufacturer Powder Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

Hodgdon 700-X 4.9 873 14,000 CUP 5.5 959 17,100 CUP
Hodgdon 800-X 7.1 883 13,600 CUP 7.9 991 16,700 CUP
Hodgdon CFE Pistol 7.1 1,008 15,800 PSI 8.1 1,139 19,700 PSI
Hodgdon Clays 4.5 855 14,500 CUP 4.9 981 17,400 CUP
Hodgdon HP-38 5 762 12,000 CUP 5.9 906 15,800 CUP
Hodgdon HS-6 8.6 888 12,200 CUP 9.5 996 16,800 CUP
Hodgdon Longshot 7.2 919 11,300 CUP 8.2 1,044 17,000 CUP
Hodgdon Titegroup 5 892 14,600 CUP 5.5 956 17,000 CUP
Hodgdon Titewad 3.5 754 14,900 PSI 4.2 887 19,400 PSI
Hodgdon Universal 6 908 13,100 CUP 6.4 977 16,800 CUP
Winchester 231 5 762 12,000 CUP 5.9 906 15,800 CUP
Winchester 244 5.5 915 15,000 PSI 6.2 1,022 19,600 PSI
Winchester 572 6.7 930 17,200 PSI 7.7 1,036 20,000 PSI
Winchester AutoComp 6.7 856 12,600 CUP 7.4 958 16,200 CUP
Winchester WSF 6.8 886 13,400 CUP 7.5 981 17,400 CUP
Winchester WST 4.4 794 14,100 CUP 4.9 866 16,500 CUP
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Last edited by Marco Califo; September 24, 2022 at 03:00 PM. Reason: Add Facts
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Old September 24, 2022, 03:17 PM   #22
Nathan
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Glock has to make those warnings for their average users. Their average user shoot, wipes off the end of the slide and puts it away to be shot again with the lowest quality of ammo available in the universe at any given time.

If you do stuff like clean it or shoot slightly decent ammo, the warnings may not apply to you.

This is why, even with USA….Universal Safe Action, they have to write in their manual that there are no safeties in the gun that will keep it from shooting you, if the trigger is depressed by any means.
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Old September 28, 2022, 02:23 AM   #23
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Before coated I shot lubed lead bullets in my stock Glocks. Just clean more often. The poly rifling tends to strip lead more so than conventional & pressures go up with a leaded bore. Then some try to shoot the lead out by chasing with a jacketed & that is usually where it all goes bad. Would I still do it today, sure, but with coated I dont have to clean anymore than if shooting jacketed.
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Old September 29, 2022, 03:29 PM   #24
Marco Califo
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So, after the 3 shot test, I disassembled the G30. There were "smudges" in the bore closest to the firing chamber. I ran my 45 bore snake through with some CLP. That "seemed" to clear up the barrel, but bore snakes don't gauge cleanliness. I rolled up a half sheet of paper towel, wetted each time with CLP, twisted it and stuck it through the bore repeatedly twisting and pushing to , and got some grayish-black residue. Another dry paper towel came through twice, clean. I "think" the barrel is lead free now. I plan to shoot one 230 FMJ, and repeat the above cleaning process.
Lone Star Alpha barrels (not threaded for California) are out of stock. I will wait for that rifled barrel before trying lead in the G30 again. Probably start with slower loads, too.
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Old September 30, 2022, 07:09 PM   #25
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All the 1911 45 Auto barrels I have owned got a little lead smudging in the rifling corners near the throat, but it's small and doesn't seem to be any worse after 3000 rounds without cleaning than it did after the first fifty or so. I've seen at least one photo of a polygon barrel that had that crud pretty much all the way down the bore in the "corners" of the polygon. That, in turn, caused bullets to start stripping, and that, in turn, can lead to a very rapid additional build-up. One fellow had his gun shooting just fine for several hundred rounds, and then in the course of just one magazine, he suddenly got heavy case pregnancy bulges and extraction failures and bullet keyholing. So while it is popular to dismiss the warning as meaningless safety over-reach, I think that person's experience makes it easy to see that people who don't fire hundreds of rounds at a session and who clean after every session might never see an issue and that some might never see it anyway. It's almost like an oddly random event that the dangerous build-up starts, so there's no way to be sure you'll get it, but no way to be sure you won't, either.

If you want to get lead out completely, I've found Wipe Out maker's NO LEAD cleaner works reasonably well. Short of that, with the old Outer's Foul Out no longer made, probably the best thing is to use either a Lewis Lead Remover or the all-copper Chore Boy strands wrapped around a 38 bore brush to scrub the stuff out. In my youth, we plugged a bore and filled it with mercury and let it amalgamate for fifteen minutes, poured the mercury back into its bottle, and then just brushed the amalgam out easily. Unfortunately, that old method causes tiny mercury beads to come out on the brush bristles and go flying into the air, so it's considered a hazmat-spreading situation to do that now. But NO LEAD also makes the lead a brittle compound after about an hour.
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