Annealing, Grain Structure - Page 2

JeepHammer · June 17, 2017, 08:56 AM

For those arguing cases are only annealed ONCE during production, have a look at this production timeline video,

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0lapLWlw5qk

JeepHammer · June 17, 2017, 11:39 AM

Now, ASM handbook set is $9,300 and is copyrighted, so according to the forum rules, I can't show you what the book actually shows...
Not even the small graph concerning recrystallization temprature of cartridge brass.

What I can tell you is,
Anyone I've ever seen quote the ASM book (the single best & most complete scientific standard ever written) makes the same MISTAKE every time!

That is the ASM samples tested & graph shown for shows 454*C (848*F) as grain growth temprature reference point...
That's a MISTAKE with firearms 'Cartridge Brass'!!!

The ASM book charts 40% Zinc brass alloy, while the biggest part of firearms cases are 28%-30% Zinc!
Heating to 850*F for any length of time CAN seriously damage the brass for our purposes putting it way outside of the 'Optimum' of what we want.

This was a MAJOR DEAL for me, I 'ASSUMED' ASM quick reference would be 'Correct', but it's NOT for 28% or 30% common firearms cases!
The testing simply didn't pan out, so I had to go back to the books & drawing board,
And it's probably why manufacturers guard their annealing processes so closely...

----

There is a reason people with some idea of what they are doing STRESS 700*F to 800*F,
Even if they don't know the specific reason or not, just find that brass annealed in that range are more consistent and seem to be OPTIMIZED for what we are doing....

Temps between 700*F & 750*F (no more than 800*F) will complete the FIRST of three steps of annealing, the STRESS RELIEF step...

The second step is 'HEALING' or 'RECRYSTALLIZATION'
The point where voids, gaps, stray molicules (dust), and slivers/shards of broken crystals are reabsorbed back into a coherent structure,

This is also the point where the brass becomes 'Soft' and brass Strength starts to weaken.

It's not all bad, DUCTILITY starts to go way up at this same temprature.
That means more consistent case out of your dies! (That 'Optimum' performance thing again...)

The third step in the PROCESS is Grain Growth, expanding grain size, larger grains gobbling up smaller grains...

This is where you very easily overheat the case, creating a MONO-CHRYSTALINE condition.
Mono-chrystaline doesn't mean one big chrystal, it just means the chrystals are getting too large to be useful, way too big for 'Optimum'.

ANY reasonable annealing is 'GOOD' simply because it removes the stresses all the broken shards, voids & stray molicules between grains, fitting them into places AT REST, instead of pulling and pushing every direction imaginable....

The second step, Recovery, allows the grain structure to absorb the stuff that causes stress in the first place, and you will usually get a few load & fire cycles before the case is so stressed again it won't resize consistently.

The third step, Grain Growth, is the most difficult since it has to be PRECISELY controlled,
But when it is precisely controlled, produces a case that is just like brand new (minus a few trace elements lost during heating).

This is NOT an 'Art', or magic, or anything other than science...
If you choose to do the science, you CAN hit 'OPTIMUM'.
If you don't want to do the science, then at least don't screw yourself by looking for 'Color' or 'Glow' from the case,
Use a temp indicator and work on getting the case out of the heat as quickly as that indicator shows the case is 'Done'...

JeepHammer · June 17, 2017, 02:29 PM

This is how I show what I'm trying to accomplish, showing the different properties of brass, and how they change with temp.

Hardness,
Strength,
Stress Relief,
DUCTILITY/Workability,
And finally Grain Growth.

http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/...psnthgeo1c.jpg

This isn't to any specific scale, it's just to show the factors that change with heating,
And somewhere between verticals bar two & four is the 'Sweet Spot' where most things come into an acceptable range,

From just stress Relief before the case starts to soften very much,
To fully annealed and grain size (growth) starts to increase exponentally.

JeepHammer · June 17, 2017, 03:25 PM

To answer email question,
*IF* you want the wonderful colors in your micrograph, you will need a 'Reagent' (chemical treatment) and a Polarized Filter for your magnifier.

Depending on your initial chemical treatment you will be able to see some colors, the longer you treat the sample the more defined lines between grains become, and the more the grains will stand out.
The -Standard- is,
25ml distilled water, (deionized for scientific grade)
25ml Ammonium hydroxide
10ml 3% Hydrogen Peroxide
You are looking at 3 seconds -Standard- , but up to 5-6 seconds actual time to get really clear lines.

You have to use a FRESH solution on each sample, so CUPS with a little squirt in each one.
If you aren't doing scientific grade samples and just want to see the grain structure, you CAN reuse the solution a few times before it stops working well.

Polarized filters will help those lines & colors show up.

Klemm's III reagent will make colors REALLY stand out & pop!
I have no idea how to backyard engineer Klemm's reagent formulas, someone else might know something that works.
$85 for 250ml so I use it sparingly since I'm a tight wad when it comes to stuff like this.

I do use distilled water, I do NOT use scientific grade deionized water.
Distilled water from the grocery store works just fine.
I use tap water when wet sanding, no sense in using distilled or deionized since I run a total loss (down the drain) instead of trying to filter the water to be used against, just too expensive to filter the larger grit out of the water supply.
The house has a 0.5 micron filter for drinking water, that's close enough...

Polarized filters can be had for about $20 (or less) that work fine with the USB magnifiers, or for just under $100 you can order a 5mp camera with stand & polarized filters.
A good stand is a GREAT thing to have!

**Unclenick** · June 18, 2017, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeepHammer

The ASM book charts 40% Zinc brass alloy, while the biggest part of firearms cases are 28%-30% Zinc!

I would put it at more like 20-30%. See this article. Keep in mind this stuff can change over time.

IIRC, the ASM plots are for a one-hour soak of the brass in the temperatures given. You can get a lot of grain growth and stress relief in an hour that doesn't have time to happen at the same temperatures in the few seconds we normally partially anneal cases in. You'd want graphs for numbers running from 2 to 20 seconds heat exposure. I wonder if anybody has ever done them? If not, it may be an opportunity for you to publish some original work.

JeepHammer · June 18, 2017, 12:02 PM

Probably why manufacturers guard annealing secrets.

All I do is short duration, from about 30 seconds to under a second with reloading brass.
I have to hot soak new case manufacture several times during the manufacture, but that isn't home reloading related.

What I see from the factories is a pretty good grain structure in the head of the case, but the necks/shoulders are long, stretched, low angle grains with a bunch of faults.
The entire case is obviously properly annealed (long duration) previous to neck forming, but it's quick annealed, just some stress relief done in the neck/shoulder to enhance sizing control.

Doing hardness testing, then grain inspection yeilds surprises...
Straight walled cases don't have the issues necked down cases do, I have to assume straight walled cases are fully annealed (long duration) and don't need further working so the neck doesn't get stressed/work hardened again.

Something is telling me to keep this proprietary, since the information isn't common knowledge & it's closely guarded by manufacturers, it might actually be worth something...

I was looking for a manufacturers video showing gas annealing with a row of nozzles, but I couldn't find one from a major manufacturer.
Couldn't find a single gas annealer machine manufacturer advertisment, makes me wonder how many places even make gas annealers for cartridge cases anymore?

Not much to see with electrical induction annealing, you can't judge power by looking at the cases change color, but several manufacturers of annealing machines have advertisment videos on the web.

JeepHammer · June 18, 2017, 02:52 PM

WOW!
Read the entire article, and references, and that's an eye opener!
That explains a TON about why Lapua cases anneal so much differently than what I do the most of, milbrass.

The report looks like a short version of what I paid full price for analysis.
I always thought they chemically & gas chromatography analyzed the brass formula...
Looks like they might have done a little X-ray also.
(Doesn't make me feel any better about what I had to pay them!)

I would REALLY like to do that and incorporate it into a spread sheet that included hardness, grain structure.
That would give a GREAT picture of what's needed, and where the limits would be when annealing, that's REALLY a missing piece!

20% spread in zinc content alone makes a HUGE difference in TIME at temprature, and that might be the huge difference I see in grain structure between brands of brass.

I got a new drip pan for my wet grinding table today, zinc plated, so just out of curiosity I had a look at the grain structure.
Don't know why I hadn't done that before since zinc plating is so common, but I hadn't...
Don't know what to make of it yet, but the high zinc grains look like high zinc brass grains, just MUCH larger. You don't even need a magnifier to see the grains...

Thanks again for the link!
I have more investigation to do, maybe even send off some milbrass for composition analysis, but I sure don't want the bills for a 'Hobby' business...

**Unclenick** · June 19, 2017, 09:48 AM

The differences in that report explain why the guys making that super expensive ultimate induction annealer feel the need to analyze hardness for every size and make of case to get settings that produce a match. The only question I have: is hardness is really the right measure? Having the same hardness would tend to give you consistent bullet pull across brands, provided all the neck walls were the same thickness, but the same degree of stress relief won't give the same hardness in different brass alloys.

If you outside neck turn all your brass and anneal every reloading cycle, then hardness is probably a good measure for controlling start pressure, though it ignores differences in case capacities, so it's not necessarily a guarantee the exact same loads will be best in all of them. But if you want the maximum number of reloads between annealings, then you want the stress relief optimized and would sort your brass by lot to avoid bullet pull variation and to limit the instances in which you need outside neck turning. But now you're looking at analyzing photomicrographs rather than the easier-to-perform hardness test.

So that's another one for the metallurgists: how close would hardness tend to be in optimally stress-relieved brass of the different alloys mentioned in that article?

JeepHammer · June 19, 2017, 08:42 PM

I personally find,
(Stressing I'm NOT trying to sell this as the 'Ultimate' way to do things)

Having sectioned, hardness tested, then had a look at grain structure,
Having put the same lot through through the dyno to determine what the pressure for movement is,
I can equate hardness to a consistant neck on 2012 and newer Lake City brass,
Mostly because I see LC about 1,000:1 of anything else (like WCC headstaps).

*IF* I had ANY 'Spare Time' I would like to do more testing...
'Spare Time' is like 'Extra Money', I've heard about it, but I've actually never had any, so the concept is abstract to me.

Between the race car job, the solar gigs, my mostly one man machine shop, and keeping up
With the homestead & the NEVER ENDING HONEY DO list, I'm lucky to get time to eat!

The guy with the $1,800, one at a time annealer will hardness test your cases for around $40 each sample, which only tells one part of the story...
A couple one at a time annealer come with a cart for case/caliber types, I have no idea how they determined times.

I will start a spread sheet with as much information as I can glean from reputable sources.
Wonder what X-ray costs over gas cromatograph or chemical testing?
I can do Rockwell & metallography, but I'd SURE like to know precisely what's in the brass to include in a graph/spread sheet database.

Until someone builds an annealer with a built in thermal limiting pyrometer there will never be a comprehensive way to anneal...

**Unclenick** · June 20, 2017, 01:10 PM

IIRC, their video showed they use the micro hardness tester to ascertain how long to leave the power on.

hounddawg · June 20, 2017, 03:46 PM

Quote:

IIRC, their video showed they use the micro hardness tester to ascertain how long to leave the power on.

Just speculating but I would think they would do a random sample tests during a run or at the minimum with every new lot of brass ingots

**Unclenick** · June 20, 2017, 04:23 PM

The maker of the annealing machine we are discussing makes only that machine, not brass, so they have no runs to sample. The brass manufacturers, though, can do that. I don't know their QC procedure other than Norma mentioned in their manual that they periodically take samples of finished cases and expect them to tolerate being loaded and fired ten times each without splitting at the case mouth.

Getting a brass ingot hardness measurement would not be useful, as the cartridge case forming process changes the hardness of the brass. Also, the factories form cases from either brass sheet rolls or from slugs cut from brass wire, so they don't handle ingots at all. They leave that to sheet and wire makers.

hounddawg · June 20, 2017, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Getting a brass ingot hardness measurement would not be useful, as the cartridge case forming process changes the hardness of the brass. Also, the factories form cases from either brass sheet rolls or from slugs cut from brass wire

good to know but what I was getting at is that their hardness testing would not be a one time thing. Also I was referring to testing the case lots not the raw material

**Unclenick** · June 20, 2017, 09:29 PM

The annealing machine maker we are talking about does not make brass or necessarily have lots of it any more than someone who makes case trimmers would. This is just a home handloader's annealing machine, and not a case manufacturer's annealing setup.

JeepHammer · June 21, 2017, 05:58 AM

My Rockwell tester is constantly calibrated, so I know it's up to snuff.
The Dyno is regularly tested, so I know it's up to snuff.
My process for grain samples is passable since ai learned it from an actual brass engineer, does nothing but brass, besides it's just looking at grain structure anyway...

When I did government DOD contracts, the coil was sampled every 4 feet, and samples were taken every step of the process, and it wasn't voluntary.
No records, something not documented and the entire production run was rejected.

I contracted to make 458 Socom brass and the buyer wanted DOD/Areospace documentation, which was a HUGE PITA, but you do what you have to so you get paid...
At least by that time I knew what to expect and knew some shortcuts.

I first got started making 45-120 Sharps brass, a bunch easier when the buyers aren't expecting a NASA mission to hinge on the quality of a black powder brass!
Very low volume and zero profit.

I had to relearn everything when I tried .22 LR rounds, it's a totally different brass alloy and processing method. There is money I'm never getting back...

I'm not a PhD metallurgist that works strictly in brass, so I had to pay (dearly) for one...
I would very much like to find someone with a gas chromatograph or X-ray that could tell me composition of the alloy, I think that would make all the difference in the world for a comprehensive picture of annealing.
Last time I was in the room with a gas chromatograph I was scared to breathe on it, it was upwards of $250,000...
I won't be getting one anytime soon unless I win one of those half billion dollar lotteries!

hounddawg · June 21, 2017, 08:07 AM

Quote:

The annealing machine maker we are talking about does not make brass or necessarily have lots of it any more than someone who makes case trimmers would. This is just a home handloader's annealing machine, and not a case manufacturer's annealing setup.

sorry then my bad. When people start talking about having lab tests that cost more than new brass I assume they are doing at least small production runs for a business, not the average home hobbyist

**Unclenick** · June 21, 2017, 08:22 AM

The discussion may be confusing because what Jeephammer is doing, production-wise, is serving as an experience base for describing what a home annealer might be able to do to get better information. At least, that's what I think is happening.

hounddawg · June 21, 2017, 11:01 AM

that is cool, Jeeps previous thread on annealing got me to thinking about consistency and is why I will be building a automatic system this weekend.

hounddawg · June 21, 2017, 01:24 PM

Seems like someone has already done the legwork and designed a induction annealing machine that is not only programmable for various cases and brands but also neck turned variants and even lot numbers from certain manufacturers. It sees as if they don't have your brass in the data base send them a piece and they will test it and program it into their firmware for free

For those looking for the perfect home annealing machine this looks like it might be your ticket. I might even consider one of these if my budget ever allows it if my DIY annealer does not give me consistent chrono results and I hear good things about this one

link -
https://www.ampannealing.com/index/

JeepHammer · June 22, 2017, 09:35 AM

Before you jump to the conclusion that annealer maker has things 'Scientifically' figured out,
Let me point out that myself & other users on just this little forum have written about the significance of CLEAN brass!
A few found out that the brass anneals differently when it's dirty than when it's clean, and by no small margin!

When you watch some of their videos showing off the annealer, then hardness testing (Vickers scale),
The brass SMOKES LIKE CRAZY!
Only brass that's dirty (inside or outside) smokes like that...

Annealing done to dirty brass then tested would be invalid results since there isn't a way to quantify 'HOW DIRTY', clean brass is clean brass, a consistent base line to start at.
And, like I and others have pointed out, the difference in annealing time is SIGNIFICANT at any given power/energy level, induction or flame.

What I'd like to point out here since everyone seems to be locked on either hardness or 'Spring' Back' as indicators...
Said it several times before, but it always bears repeating!

I don't shoot for any specification of 'Hardness' or lack of 'Hardness',
I don't use the idiots method of checking 'Spring Back' (vice grips on the neck, see if the neck 'Springs Back')...

I stress using a Dyno (compression/stretch testing machine) and that seems to get lost in translation...
What I do is anneal for any given time, at set power level, do about 50 cases,
Some are for hardness testing and/or sectioning (grain structure inspection)
10 or 20 get sized & get a bullet, then visit the Dyno.
What I'm looking for are CONSISTENT results from the Dyno.

The 'NECK HOLD' (Release Pressure) is dependant on the size of the expanders ball in the die vs the bullet diameter.
The smaller the ball, the more the bullet has to stretch the case neck to enter it, the higher the holding force.
That's NOT what I'm testing for, I don't care how much of an interference fit there is between neck & bullet, could be 12 pounds, a little tighter neck might produce 25 pounds...
Entire a function of the neck sizer ball, all else being equal...

What I want to do is give that neck sizer ball a brass that will resize CONSISTENTLY in the first place.
If a 10 round sample has an average of 12 pounds, I don't want to see 6 pounds through 18 pounds.
I want to see 11.5 to 12.5 pounds to reach that average of 12 pounds.

If the neck is a little harder, but coming out of the annealer CONSISTENTLY, the same die & sizer ball might produce 24 pounds average in a 10 round group,
Harder means the neck gets 'Crunched' down, but resists taking the sizer ball and returns more toward being 'Crunched' and you wind up with a smaller neck in the brass...

Even a little 'Harder' brass producing a 24 pounds average, I want to see a low of 22 pounds, and a high of 26 pounds to move that bullet,
Or better yet, a low of 23 pounds & high of 25 pounds.

A CONSISTENT brass product going into the die will produce a consistent brass product coming out of the die, doesn't matter any 'Specific' hardness...

And just for the record, the vice grips method is anything BUT scientific... And produces ZERO useable results even though I've seen it in print more times than I can count!
'Snap Back' is properly called 'Ductility'.
The softer the brass, the more you can work that brass without failures, and the better it will hold the shape you are trying to beat it into.

Harder brass will fail sooner in the working process, usually on the firing cycle, but neck splits aren't uncommon while sizing brass either...
Harder brass has to be worked harder to beat it into a useable shape.

Work hardening comes from firing cycles and sizing cycles, annealing removes stress, the first step in an annealing PROCESS, which is why I say ANY ANNEALING IS 'GOOD', as long as you don't overcook the brass...
Cooking the brass a little longer, or at higher temp, produces the second step in the PROCESS, which is RECOVERY, when the brass decreases hardness, increases DUCTILITY, and starts to form high angle grain structure again.

Stressed brass is full stretched grains, low grain angles, fist step takes the stress out of the brass, second step absorbs the broken slivers and free molicules causing stress, third step is grown big fat grains with high angle intersections between grains.

I find the most CONSISTENT brass is 1/4 to 1/2 hard, not dead soft, not super hard.
The RELEASE pressures become VERY consistent around 1/4 to 1/2 hard, with spreads between high & low pressures often under 10 pounds, sometimes under 5 pounds.
Compare that to brand new Lapua brass that produces 1 1/2 to 3 pound spreads pretty consistently, and you can really see the benefits annealing brings to the table.

JeepHammer · June 22, 2017, 09:52 AM

The other flaw in the machine you posted, it's made in a 50 mHz
Running it on a 60 mHz power supply is seriously going to change the power output inside the machine, YouTube has owners complaining about overcooking the brass at recommended time settings & getting inconsistent results at best...

hdwhit · June 22, 2017, 12:22 PM

Thank you for a very thorough treatment of the subject.

hounddawg · June 22, 2017, 12:59 PM

so Jeep you are saying you prefer the Annie induction unit where the only way to adjust is varying the length of time the machine is on. Seems to me you have to guess at the right time setting a few times and use a calibrated eyeball to adjust the cases position in the coil. I respect your opinion but I would have to disagree on this point.

As far as the 50/60 Hz part if retailers such as Grafs and Brownells/Sinclair are selling them I would suppose they work.

read this review

Annealing Made Perfect (AMP) Annealing Machine Review

By Bill Gravit, who was the founder of Sinclair. I own a few Sinclair products and they are all well made and well designed products. In other words I have faith in this guy's opinion because of my experience in past purchases of products that he has sold me and I have used.

The 6.5 guys over at Accurate Shooter did a review as well

6.5 Guys Review of AMP Induction Annealer

In researching the AMP last evening they use separate case holders to ensure the cartridges are in the optimum position each time so the the heat is concentrated just on the neck and says that a mm in position makes a huge difference in the process. From what little I know of magnetic fields that makes sense to a like me.

Correct me if I am wrong but from near as I can tell with the Annie unit you would have to design some sort of jig to ensure that the case was in the exact same position each time. Even at that you are still just guessing at where it is in the field since we can't see a magnetic field

I am not purchasing anything at the moment, however that new scope might not be happening as soon as I planned because of this thread. I am still waiting to see if I can get acceptable consistency from my home grown auto feed unit unit with a plumbers torch. If I notice a improvement I will be annealing after every firing and might even upgrade my unit with a regulated torch to give me improved temperature consistency from batch to batch.

Consistency in the chrono numbers is what I am in search of. to me the perfect anneal is one that gives me good case life and consistent numbers. Give me an electron microscope and I would look at a case one time and say "ain't that cool now" and that would be it.

Edit - just read the manuals for the Annie and the Amp. I can see where someone doing small scale production would prefer the water cooled Annie. Of course people doing small scale production would also be able to rig up some sort of jig for positioning and even automate it and the water cooling issue would not be a issue. Looks like you could rig up a water supply easily with a small aquarium or fountain pump and a plastic container easily enough if a sink was not available

However for someone like myself would be doing batches of 50 or 100 the water cooling would be a pain in the butt and I would prefer the FC coil which looks to offer less hassle, and easier loading at the expense of having a duty cycle like the AMP which would be a moot point for the average reloader doing lots of 100 or so . Still I think the AMP is the more advanced and well designed unit for a BR or long range shooter because you get absolute consistency with every round and every batch. The case you anneal today will be at the same place in the magnetic field as the case you annealed last week and receive the same amount of heat for the same length of time in the exact same spot on the case. Cant ask for much better than that in consistency

I also agree this is a great thread. I have learned a ton from it and that is why I keep coming here

RC20 · June 22, 2017, 01:26 PM

JH:

Sometimes this get to deep for me to follow completely, but keep on.

Would using an M die in your process assist you?

My brother got me one and I find its a lot more consistent and better feeling even though it takes a separate step (I am working on clearing bench space to set it up in its own press)

He has one for each cartridge , I just measured the depth set on the stem and adjust per caliber I am loading (all are in 30 caliber, just different ones)

JeepHammer · June 22, 2017, 10:14 PM

Not looking to crap on Amp or any other maker, just consider the times recommended by Amp are off for US power grid users... One more vairable to consider.

I have no idea if the demonstration videos Amp produces are accurate or not, fouled brass doesn't anneal at the same rate as clean (Inside & outside) brass does, another vairable to consider.
There is a reason I steel pin clean before anything else goes on, I'm simply trying to remove as many vairables as possible.

As for 'Annie' (I have one), timing is built into the machine at 1/10 second intervals.
Power level transferred into the brass can be adjusted by the size of coil (larger coils are less efficient) or by the gap size in the ferrite, larger gaps are less efficient.

When you get your time approximate, and you want to fine tune, you simply start with a TIME slightly above what your end goal is, then open the gap until you get exactly what you are looking for.

The ferrite gap can also be shaped to apply more power at the shoulder bends, where the brass is thicker, and wider gap as it reaches the upper neck/mouth so you don't over heat the neck/mouth.

We went over that shaping in a couple of threads with another user that was overheating the upper neck/mouth before the shoulder reached proper target temp. It works pretty well, but shaping that ceramic ferrite can be a pain! I use a cheap diamond abrasive saw blade intended for ceramic tiles, it works pretty good on the ferrites.

When the mouth simply overheats, my solution was to simply stick the mouth further up, out from between the ferrite ends, then shape ferrite to be less efficient at the upper end,
This gave me a uniform 'Hardness' & grain structure all the way up the shoulder, neck & mouth.

If the mountain won't come to Mohammed, Mohammed goes to the mountain!
Worked out better than my first idea, which was to use a wet swab in the case neck to slow heating.
Swabs don't like to stay fluffed up and in full contact with the case, and it's nearly impossible to keep a swab uniformly wet & cool.
By shaping the ferrite, it's consistent every single time, no extra crap required.

Getting a CONSISTENT BRASS product INTO the press produces a consistent brass product OUT of the press.
My computer geek friend is fond of saying 'Garbage In, Garbage Out',
Instead of beating my head against the wall trying to get differing brass hardness to resize consistently,
I started from scratch and put a uniform, consistent hardness brass into the press in the first place.

If you buy brand new brass, all the same lot,
Then shoot it through the same chamber (hopefully a tight chamber so it's not blown out),
Then keep track of how many reloads, and keep that brass together,
You usually have brass that shoots well since it's the same age, work hardened the same, run through the same chamber & dies, ect.
You are keeping consistency, even though the consistency is changing slightly and you are compensating for the changes....
This has been the common 'Wisdom' and accepted way to do things...

For those of us that nearly never buy new brass, shoot range pickup fired through who knows what chamber, reloaded an unknown number of times and sized on who knows what dies...
THAT'S A CRAP LOAD OF VAIRABLES!

CONSISTENT ANNEALING, to a very large degree, resets the clock on that brass and gives you a consistent starting point, even if you aren't worried about 'Perfect' annealing, or bench gun groups, you still get very good results by simply giving YOUR sizing dies a REASONABLY consistent brass product to work with...
With range pickup, every manufacturer WILL have a different brass formula, no way around that, annealing is letting you make the best of the situation no matter the formula of the brass.
Everyone that shoots range pickup knows this brand or that brand shoots better in their particular rifle, but once annealed & given a PROPER resize, let's face it, nothing shoots 'Better' than FREE BRASS, simply because it's FREE BRASS!
It's like sex, the worst you ever had was STILL SEX!

For the science minded,
It's about the bullet hold/release.
Frankly, after proper annealing, you would need a bench rifle to tell the difference.
If you can shoot a single hole that just gets a little darker & fuzzier with brand new, top of the line brass,
But your properly annealed range pickup or milbrass shoots one jagged hole, (10 rounds under a dime), then that's pretty darn good, and only a bench shooter would be able to tell the difference.

Most guys that shoot 'Minute Of Barn Door' groups wouldn't know the difference between Lapua & Russian steel case anyway...
It's the reloaders, that shoot from benches with mostly common rifles that will benefit the most.
A guy with a bench queen that is capable of one hole groups isn't going to compromise by using range pickup or common manufacturer brass,
The guy that empties magazines by clicking off rounds at nothing won't know the difference...
It's those of us that actually AIM a more or less common rifle that will see the biggest difference...

June 17, 2017, 11:39 AM	#27
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	Now, ASM handbook set is $9,300 and is copyrighted, so according to the forum rules, I can't show you what the book actually shows... Not even the small graph concerning recrystallization temprature of cartridge brass. What I can tell you is, Anyone I've ever seen quote the ASM book (the single best & most complete scientific standard ever written) makes the same MISTAKE every time! That is the ASM samples tested & graph shown for shows 454C (848F) as grain growth temprature reference point... That's a MISTAKE with firearms 'Cartridge Brass'!!! The ASM book charts 40% Zinc brass alloy, while the biggest part of firearms cases are 28%-30% Zinc! Heating to 850F for any length of time CAN seriously damage the brass for our purposes putting it way outside of the 'Optimum' of what we want. This was a MAJOR DEAL for me, I 'ASSUMED' ASM quick reference would be 'Correct', but it's NOT for 28% or 30% common firearms cases! The testing simply didn't pan out, so I had to go back to the books & drawing board, And it's probably why manufacturers guard their annealing processes so closely... ---- There is a reason people with some idea of what they are doing STRESS 700F to 800F, Even if they don't know the specific reason or not, just find that brass annealed in that range are more consistent and seem to be OPTIMIZED for what we are doing.... Temps between 700F & 750F (no more than 800F) will complete the FIRST of three steps of annealing, the STRESS RELIEF step... The second step is 'HEALING' or 'RECRYSTALLIZATION' The point where voids, gaps, stray molicules (dust), and slivers/shards of broken crystals are reabsorbed back into a coherent structure, This is also the point where the brass becomes 'Soft' and brass Strength starts to weaken. It's not all bad, DUCTILITY starts to go way up at this same temprature. That means more consistent case out of your dies! (That 'Optimum' performance thing again...) The third step in the PROCESS is Grain Growth, expanding grain size, larger grains gobbling up smaller grains... This is where you very easily overheat the case, creating a MONO-CHRYSTALINE condition. Mono-chrystaline doesn't mean one big chrystal, it just means the chrystals are getting too large to be useful, way too big for 'Optimum'. ANY reasonable annealing is 'GOOD' simply because it removes the stresses all the broken shards, voids & stray molicules between grains, fitting them into places AT REST, instead of pulling and pushing every direction imaginable.... The second step, Recovery, allows the grain structure to absorb the stuff that causes stress in the first place, and you will usually get a few load & fire cycles before the case is so stressed again it won't resize consistently. The third step, Grain Growth, is the most difficult since it has to be PRECISELY controlled, But when it is precisely controlled, produces a case that is just like brand new (minus a few trace elements lost during heating). This is NOT an 'Art', or magic, or anything other than science... If you choose to do the science, you CAN hit 'OPTIMUM'. If you don't want to do the science, then at least don't screw yourself by looking for 'Color' or 'Glow' from the case, Use a temp indicator and work on getting the case out of the heat as quickly as that indicator shows the case is 'Done'... Last edited by JeepHammer; June 17, 2017 at 11:49 AM.

June 17, 2017, 03:25 PM	#29
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	To answer email question, IF you want the wonderful colors in your micrograph, you will need a 'Reagent' (chemical treatment) and a Polarized Filter for your magnifier. Depending on your initial chemical treatment you will be able to see some colors, the longer you treat the sample the more defined lines between grains become, and the more the grains will stand out. The -Standard- is, 25ml distilled water, (deionized for scientific grade) 25ml Ammonium hydroxide 10ml 3% Hydrogen Peroxide You are looking at 3 seconds -Standard- , but up to 5-6 seconds actual time to get really clear lines. You have to use a FRESH solution on each sample, so CUPS with a little squirt in each one. If you aren't doing scientific grade samples and just want to see the grain structure, you CAN reuse the solution a few times before it stops working well. Polarized filters will help those lines & colors show up. Klemm's III reagent will make colors REALLY stand out & pop! I have no idea how to backyard engineer Klemm's reagent formulas, someone else might know something that works. $85 for 250ml so I use it sparingly since I'm a tight wad when it comes to stuff like this. I do use distilled water, I do NOT use scientific grade deionized water. Distilled water from the grocery store works just fine. I use tap water when wet sanding, no sense in using distilled or deionized since I run a total loss (down the drain) instead of trying to filter the water to be used against, just too expensive to filter the larger grit out of the water supply. The house has a 0.5 micron filter for drinking water, that's close enough... Polarized filters can be had for about $20 (or less) that work fine with the USB magnifiers, or for just under $100 you can order a 5mp camera with stand & polarized filters. A good stand is a GREAT thing to have! Last edited by JeepHammer; June 17, 2017 at 03:32 PM.

June 19, 2017, 09:48 AM	#33
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	The differences in that report explain why the guys making that super expensive ultimate induction annealer feel the need to analyze hardness for every size and make of case to get settings that produce a match. The only question I have: is hardness is really the right measure? Having the same hardness would tend to give you consistent bullet pull across brands, provided all the neck walls were the same thickness, but the same degree of stress relief won't give the same hardness in different brass alloys. If you outside neck turn all your brass and anneal every reloading cycle, then hardness is probably a good measure for controlling start pressure, though it ignores differences in case capacities, so it's not necessarily a guarantee the exact same loads will be best in all of them. But if you want the maximum number of reloads between annealings, then you want the stress relief optimized and would sort your brass by lot to avoid bullet pull variation and to limit the instances in which you need outside neck turning. But now you're looking at analyzing photomicrographs rather than the easier-to-perform hardness test. So that's another one for the metallurgists: how close would hardness tend to be in optimally stress-relieved brass of the different alloys mentioned in that article? __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 20, 2017, 01:10 PM	#35
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	IIRC, their video showed they use the micro hardness tester to ascertain how long to leave the power on. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 20, 2017, 04:23 PM	#37
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	The maker of the annealing machine we are discussing makes only that machine, not brass, so they have no runs to sample. The brass manufacturers, though, can do that. I don't know their QC procedure other than Norma mentioned in their manual that they periodically take samples of finished cases and expect them to tolerate being loaded and fired ten times each without splitting at the case mouth. Getting a brass ingot hardness measurement would not be useful, as the cartridge case forming process changes the hardness of the brass. Also, the factories form cases from either brass sheet rolls or from slugs cut from brass wire, so they don't handle ingots at all. They leave that to sheet and wire makers. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 17, 2017, 08:56 AM	#26
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	For those arguing cases are only annealed ONCE during production, have a look at this production timeline video, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0lapLWlw5qk

June 17, 2017, 02:29 PM	#28
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	This is how I show what I'm trying to accomplish, showing the different properties of brass, and how they change with temp. Hardness, Strength, Stress Relief, DUCTILITY/Workability, And finally Grain Growth. http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/...psnthgeo1c.jpg This isn't to any specific scale, it's just to show the factors that change with heating, And somewhere between verticals bar two & four is the 'Sweet Spot' where most things come into an acceptable range, From just stress Relief before the case starts to soften very much, To fully annealed and grain size (growth) starts to increase exponentally.

June 18, 2017, 12:02 PM	#31
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	Probably why manufacturers guard annealing secrets. All I do is short duration, from about 30 seconds to under a second with reloading brass. I have to hot soak new case manufacture several times during the manufacture, but that isn't home reloading related. What I see from the factories is a pretty good grain structure in the head of the case, but the necks/shoulders are long, stretched, low angle grains with a bunch of faults. The entire case is obviously properly annealed (long duration) previous to neck forming, but it's quick annealed, just some stress relief done in the neck/shoulder to enhance sizing control. Doing hardness testing, then grain inspection yeilds surprises... Straight walled cases don't have the issues necked down cases do, I have to assume straight walled cases are fully annealed (long duration) and don't need further working so the neck doesn't get stressed/work hardened again. Something is telling me to keep this proprietary, since the information isn't common knowledge & it's closely guarded by manufacturers, it might actually be worth something... I was looking for a manufacturers video showing gas annealing with a row of nozzles, but I couldn't find one from a major manufacturer. Couldn't find a single gas annealer machine manufacturer advertisment, makes me wonder how many places even make gas annealers for cartridge cases anymore? Not much to see with electrical induction annealing, you can't judge power by looking at the cases change color, but several manufacturers of annealing machines have advertisment videos on the web.

June 18, 2017, 02:52 PM	#32
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	WOW! Read the entire article, and references, and that's an eye opener! That explains a TON about why Lapua cases anneal so much differently than what I do the most of, milbrass. The report looks like a short version of what I paid full price for analysis. I always thought they chemically & gas chromatography analyzed the brass formula... Looks like they might have done a little X-ray also. (Doesn't make me feel any better about what I had to pay them!) I would REALLY like to do that and incorporate it into a spread sheet that included hardness, grain structure. That would give a GREAT picture of what's needed, and where the limits would be when annealing, that's REALLY a missing piece! 20% spread in zinc content alone makes a HUGE difference in TIME at temprature, and that might be the huge difference I see in grain structure between brands of brass. I got a new drip pan for my wet grinding table today, zinc plated, so just out of curiosity I had a look at the grain structure. Don't know why I hadn't done that before since zinc plating is so common, but I hadn't... Don't know what to make of it yet, but the high zinc grains look like high zinc brass grains, just MUCH larger. You don't even need a magnifier to see the grains... Thanks again for the link! I have more investigation to do, maybe even send off some milbrass for composition analysis, but I sure don't want the bills for a 'Hobby' business...

June 19, 2017, 08:42 PM	#34
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	I personally find, (Stressing I'm NOT trying to sell this as the 'Ultimate' way to do things) Having sectioned, hardness tested, then had a look at grain structure, Having put the same lot through through the dyno to determine what the pressure for movement is, I can equate hardness to a consistant neck on 2012 and newer Lake City brass, Mostly because I see LC about 1,000:1 of anything else (like WCC headstaps). IF I had ANY 'Spare Time' I would like to do more testing... 'Spare Time' is like 'Extra Money', I've heard about it, but I've actually never had any, so the concept is abstract to me. Between the race car job, the solar gigs, my mostly one man machine shop, and keeping up With the homestead & the NEVER ENDING HONEY DO list, I'm lucky to get time to eat! The guy with the $1,800, one at a time annealer will hardness test your cases for around $40 each sample, which only tells one part of the story... A couple one at a time annealer come with a cart for case/caliber types, I have no idea how they determined times. I will start a spread sheet with as much information as I can glean from reputable sources. Wonder what X-ray costs over gas cromatograph or chemical testing? I can do Rockwell & metallography, but I'd SURE like to know precisely what's in the brass to include in a graph/spread sheet database. Until someone builds an annealer with a built in thermal limiting pyrometer there will never be a comprehensive way to anneal...

June 20, 2017, 09:29 PM	#39
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	The annealing machine maker we are talking about does not make brass or necessarily have lots of it any more than someone who makes case trimmers would. This is just a home handloader's annealing machine, and not a case manufacturer's annealing setup. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 21, 2017, 05:58 AM	#40
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	My Rockwell tester is constantly calibrated, so I know it's up to snuff. The Dyno is regularly tested, so I know it's up to snuff. My process for grain samples is passable since ai learned it from an actual brass engineer, does nothing but brass, besides it's just looking at grain structure anyway... When I did government DOD contracts, the coil was sampled every 4 feet, and samples were taken every step of the process, and it wasn't voluntary. No records, something not documented and the entire production run was rejected. I contracted to make 458 Socom brass and the buyer wanted DOD/Areospace documentation, which was a HUGE PITA, but you do what you have to so you get paid... At least by that time I knew what to expect and knew some shortcuts. I first got started making 45-120 Sharps brass, a bunch easier when the buyers aren't expecting a NASA mission to hinge on the quality of a black powder brass! Very low volume and zero profit. I had to relearn everything when I tried .22 LR rounds, it's a totally different brass alloy and processing method. There is money I'm never getting back... I'm not a PhD metallurgist that works strictly in brass, so I had to pay (dearly) for one... I would very much like to find someone with a gas chromatograph or X-ray that could tell me composition of the alloy, I think that would make all the difference in the world for a comprehensive picture of annealing. Last time I was in the room with a gas chromatograph I was scared to breathe on it, it was upwards of $250,000... I won't be getting one anytime soon unless I win one of those half billion dollar lotteries!

June 21, 2017, 08:22 AM	#42
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	The discussion may be confusing because what Jeephammer is doing, production-wise, is serving as an experience base for describing what a home annealer might be able to do to get better information. At least, that's what I think is happening. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 21, 2017, 11:01 AM	#43
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	that is cool, Jeeps previous thread on annealing got me to thinking about consistency and is why I will be building a automatic system this weekend. __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

June 21, 2017, 01:24 PM	#44
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	Seems like someone has already done the legwork and designed a induction annealing machine that is not only programmable for various cases and brands but also neck turned variants and even lot numbers from certain manufacturers. It sees as if they don't have your brass in the data base send them a piece and they will test it and program it into their firmware for free For those looking for the perfect home annealing machine this looks like it might be your ticket. I might even consider one of these if my budget ever allows it if my DIY annealer does not give me consistent chrono results and I hear good things about this one link - https://www.ampannealing.com/index/ __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek Last edited by hounddawg; June 21, 2017 at 02:59 PM.

June 22, 2017, 09:35 AM	#45
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	Before you jump to the conclusion that annealer maker has things 'Scientifically' figured out, Let me point out that myself & other users on just this little forum have written about the significance of CLEAN brass! A few found out that the brass anneals differently when it's dirty than when it's clean, and by no small margin! When you watch some of their videos showing off the annealer, then hardness testing (Vickers scale), The brass SMOKES LIKE CRAZY! Only brass that's dirty (inside or outside) smokes like that... Annealing done to dirty brass then tested would be invalid results since there isn't a way to quantify 'HOW DIRTY', clean brass is clean brass, a consistent base line to start at. And, like I and others have pointed out, the difference in annealing time is SIGNIFICANT at any given power/energy level, induction or flame. What I'd like to point out here since everyone seems to be locked on either hardness or 'Spring' Back' as indicators... Said it several times before, but it always bears repeating! I don't shoot for any specification of 'Hardness' or lack of 'Hardness', I don't use the idiots method of checking 'Spring Back' (vice grips on the neck, see if the neck 'Springs Back')... I stress using a Dyno (compression/stretch testing machine) and that seems to get lost in translation... What I do is anneal for any given time, at set power level, do about 50 cases, Some are for hardness testing and/or sectioning (grain structure inspection) 10 or 20 get sized & get a bullet, then visit the Dyno. What I'm looking for are CONSISTENT results from the Dyno. The 'NECK HOLD' (Release Pressure) is dependant on the size of the expanders ball in the die vs the bullet diameter. The smaller the ball, the more the bullet has to stretch the case neck to enter it, the higher the holding force. That's NOT what I'm testing for, I don't care how much of an interference fit there is between neck & bullet, could be 12 pounds, a little tighter neck might produce 25 pounds... Entire a function of the neck sizer ball, all else being equal... What I want to do is give that neck sizer ball a brass that will resize CONSISTENTLY in the first place. If a 10 round sample has an average of 12 pounds, I don't want to see 6 pounds through 18 pounds. I want to see 11.5 to 12.5 pounds to reach that average of 12 pounds. If the neck is a little harder, but coming out of the annealer CONSISTENTLY, the same die & sizer ball might produce 24 pounds average in a 10 round group, Harder means the neck gets 'Crunched' down, but resists taking the sizer ball and returns more toward being 'Crunched' and you wind up with a smaller neck in the brass... Even a little 'Harder' brass producing a 24 pounds average, I want to see a low of 22 pounds, and a high of 26 pounds to move that bullet, Or better yet, a low of 23 pounds & high of 25 pounds. A CONSISTENT brass product going into the die will produce a consistent brass product coming out of the die, doesn't matter any 'Specific' hardness... And just for the record, the vice grips method is anything BUT scientific... And produces ZERO useable results even though I've seen it in print more times than I can count! 'Snap Back' is properly called 'Ductility'. The softer the brass, the more you can work that brass without failures, and the better it will hold the shape you are trying to beat it into. Harder brass will fail sooner in the working process, usually on the firing cycle, but neck splits aren't uncommon while sizing brass either... Harder brass has to be worked harder to beat it into a useable shape. Work hardening comes from firing cycles and sizing cycles, annealing removes stress, the first step in an annealing PROCESS, which is why I say ANY ANNEALING IS 'GOOD', as long as you don't overcook the brass... Cooking the brass a little longer, or at higher temp, produces the second step in the PROCESS, which is RECOVERY, when the brass decreases hardness, increases DUCTILITY, and starts to form high angle grain structure again. Stressed brass is full stretched grains, low grain angles, fist step takes the stress out of the brass, second step absorbs the broken slivers and free molicules causing stress, third step is grown big fat grains with high angle intersections between grains. I find the most CONSISTENT brass is 1/4 to 1/2 hard, not dead soft, not super hard. The RELEASE pressures become VERY consistent around 1/4 to 1/2 hard, with spreads between high & low pressures often under 10 pounds, sometimes under 5 pounds. Compare that to brand new Lapua brass that produces 1 1/2 to 3 pound spreads pretty consistently, and you can really see the benefits annealing brings to the table.

June 22, 2017, 09:52 AM	#46
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	The other flaw in the machine you posted, it's made in a 50 mHz Running it on a 60 mHz power supply is seriously going to change the power output inside the machine, YouTube has owners complaining about overcooking the brass at recommended time settings & getting inconsistent results at best...

June 22, 2017, 12:22 PM	#47
hdwhit Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2017 Posts: 1,011	Thank you for a very thorough treatment of the subject.

June 22, 2017, 12:59 PM	#48
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	so Jeep you are saying you prefer the Annie induction unit where the only way to adjust is varying the length of time the machine is on. Seems to me you have to guess at the right time setting a few times and use a calibrated eyeball to adjust the cases position in the coil. I respect your opinion but I would have to disagree on this point. As far as the 50/60 Hz part if retailers such as Grafs and Brownells/Sinclair are selling them I would suppose they work. read this review Annealing Made Perfect (AMP) Annealing Machine Review By Bill Gravit, who was the founder of Sinclair. I own a few Sinclair products and they are all well made and well designed products. In other words I have faith in this guy's opinion because of my experience in past purchases of products that he has sold me and I have used. The 6.5 guys over at Accurate Shooter did a review as well 6.5 Guys Review of AMP Induction Annealer In researching the AMP last evening they use separate case holders to ensure the cartridges are in the optimum position each time so the the heat is concentrated just on the neck and says that a mm in position makes a huge difference in the process. From what little I know of magnetic fields that makes sense to a like me. Correct me if I am wrong but from near as I can tell with the Annie unit you would have to design some sort of jig to ensure that the case was in the exact same position each time. Even at that you are still just guessing at where it is in the field since we can't see a magnetic field I am not purchasing anything at the moment, however that new scope might not be happening as soon as I planned because of this thread. I am still waiting to see if I can get acceptable consistency from my home grown auto feed unit unit with a plumbers torch. If I notice a improvement I will be annealing after every firing and might even upgrade my unit with a regulated torch to give me improved temperature consistency from batch to batch. Consistency in the chrono numbers is what I am in search of. to me the perfect anneal is one that gives me good case life and consistent numbers. Give me an electron microscope and I would look at a case one time and say "ain't that cool now" and that would be it. Edit - just read the manuals for the Annie and the Amp. I can see where someone doing small scale production would prefer the water cooled Annie. Of course people doing small scale production would also be able to rig up some sort of jig for positioning and even automate it and the water cooling issue would not be a issue. Looks like you could rig up a water supply easily with a small aquarium or fountain pump and a plastic container easily enough if a sink was not available However for someone like myself would be doing batches of 50 or 100 the water cooling would be a pain in the butt and I would prefer the FC coil which looks to offer less hassle, and easier loading at the expense of having a duty cycle like the AMP which would be a moot point for the average reloader doing lots of 100 or so . Still I think the AMP is the more advanced and well designed unit for a BR or long range shooter because you get absolute consistency with every round and every batch. The case you anneal today will be at the same place in the magnetic field as the case you annealed last week and receive the same amount of heat for the same length of time in the exact same spot on the case. Cant ask for much better than that in consistency I also agree this is a great thread. I have learned a ton from it and that is why I keep coming here __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek Last edited by hounddawg; June 22, 2017 at 02:16 PM.

June 22, 2017, 01:26 PM	#49
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	JH: Sometimes this get to deep for me to follow completely, but keep on. Would using an M die in your process assist you? My brother got me one and I find its a lot more consistent and better feeling even though it takes a separate step (I am working on clearing bench space to set it up in its own press) He has one for each cartridge , I just measured the depth set on the stem and adjust per caliber I am loading (all are in 30 caliber, just different ones)

June 22, 2017, 10:14 PM	#50
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	Not looking to crap on Amp or any other maker, just consider the times recommended by Amp are off for US power grid users... One more vairable to consider. I have no idea if the demonstration videos Amp produces are accurate or not, fouled brass doesn't anneal at the same rate as clean (Inside & outside) brass does, another vairable to consider. There is a reason I steel pin clean before anything else goes on, I'm simply trying to remove as many vairables as possible. As for 'Annie' (I have one), timing is built into the machine at 1/10 second intervals. Power level transferred into the brass can be adjusted by the size of coil (larger coils are less efficient) or by the gap size in the ferrite, larger gaps are less efficient. When you get your time approximate, and you want to fine tune, you simply start with a TIME slightly above what your end goal is, then open the gap until you get exactly what you are looking for. The ferrite gap can also be shaped to apply more power at the shoulder bends, where the brass is thicker, and wider gap as it reaches the upper neck/mouth so you don't over heat the neck/mouth. We went over that shaping in a couple of threads with another user that was overheating the upper neck/mouth before the shoulder reached proper target temp. It works pretty well, but shaping that ceramic ferrite can be a pain! I use a cheap diamond abrasive saw blade intended for ceramic tiles, it works pretty good on the ferrites. When the mouth simply overheats, my solution was to simply stick the mouth further up, out from between the ferrite ends, then shape ferrite to be less efficient at the upper end, This gave me a uniform 'Hardness' & grain structure all the way up the shoulder, neck & mouth. If the mountain won't come to Mohammed, Mohammed goes to the mountain! Worked out better than my first idea, which was to use a wet swab in the case neck to slow heating. Swabs don't like to stay fluffed up and in full contact with the case, and it's nearly impossible to keep a swab uniformly wet & cool. By shaping the ferrite, it's consistent every single time, no extra crap required. Getting a CONSISTENT BRASS product INTO the press produces a consistent brass product OUT of the press. My computer geek friend is fond of saying 'Garbage In, Garbage Out', Instead of beating my head against the wall trying to get differing brass hardness to resize consistently, I started from scratch and put a uniform, consistent hardness brass into the press in the first place. If you buy brand new brass, all the same lot, Then shoot it through the same chamber (hopefully a tight chamber so it's not blown out), Then keep track of how many reloads, and keep that brass together, You usually have brass that shoots well since it's the same age, work hardened the same, run through the same chamber & dies, ect. You are keeping consistency, even though the consistency is changing slightly and you are compensating for the changes.... This has been the common 'Wisdom' and accepted way to do things... For those of us that nearly never buy new brass, shoot range pickup fired through who knows what chamber, reloaded an unknown number of times and sized on who knows what dies... THAT'S A CRAP LOAD OF VAIRABLES! CONSISTENT ANNEALING, to a very large degree, resets the clock on that brass and gives you a consistent starting point, even if you aren't worried about 'Perfect' annealing, or bench gun groups, you still get very good results by simply giving YOUR sizing dies a REASONABLY consistent brass product to work with... With range pickup, every manufacturer WILL have a different brass formula, no way around that, annealing is letting you make the best of the situation no matter the formula of the brass. Everyone that shoots range pickup knows this brand or that brand shoots better in their particular rifle, but once annealed & given a PROPER resize, let's face it, nothing shoots 'Better' than FREE BRASS, simply because it's FREE BRASS! It's like sex, the worst you ever had was STILL SEX! For the science minded, It's about the bullet hold/release. Frankly, after proper annealing, you would need a bench rifle to tell the difference. If you can shoot a single hole that just gets a little darker & fuzzier with brand new, top of the line brass, But your properly annealed range pickup or milbrass shoots one jagged hole, (10 rounds under a dime), then that's pretty darn good, and only a bench shooter would be able to tell the difference. Most guys that shoot 'Minute Of Barn Door' groups wouldn't know the difference between Lapua & Russian steel case anyway... It's the reloaders, that shoot from benches with mostly common rifles that will benefit the most. A guy with a bench queen that is capable of one hole groups isn't going to compromise by using range pickup or common manufacturer brass, The guy that empties magazines by clicking off rounds at nothing won't know the difference... It's those of us that actually AIM a more or less common rifle that will see the biggest difference...