Cost:Benefit Looking at Reloading

[leadcounsel]

Sad attempt with the cooking versus eating out analogy.

Eating is a requirement for humans. And the time it takes to eat out is approximately the same as it takes to make food. If I make a spaghetti meal, and sit down and eat it, it takes 30-60 minutes. If I go out to eat, same thing.

No need for the reloading fanboys to get so worked up. If you love your hobby, congratulations. I'm not crapping on it. Ya'll are insightful, smart, helpful with load information in the community, etc.

But to ignore the economic opportunity costs is doing yourself and others a disservice if you think that time you're reloading is 'pure profit' because from a purely unemotional economic sense it's not. No more so than any way you spend your leisure time... right now as I sit on TFL, it's technically costing me money in time I could be billing hours, working on schoolwork, writing my novel, filing my provisional patent paperwork, etc. which are all income generating activities.

I go back to the analogy - if your time is free, then walk across the country instead of paying $500 for an airline ticket. Clearly your time is not free.

[A pause for the COZ]

Wow....

You cant just count it as a economic exercise. You have to factor in the willingness to do it.

I grow my own Pork, I sure save money. but one must be willing to shovel the manure to reap the cheap pork chops.

I am relatively skilled so there is actually quite a few things I could do to save money.
I choose to pay the professionals unless I am in the mood to do it. I am not poor so i dont have too if I dont want too.

If you dont like reloading, please by all means spend your time doing some thing else. You wont be happy no matter how much you shave off the cost.

I enjoy both sides, the shooting and the making. So its a win win for me.

[shootniron]

leadcounsel has permanently warped my B.S. meter...overloaded it until it is toast...sad part is...he believes this stuff.

[BigJimP]

But those of us that reload..and like it / realize he'll never get it ...and that's ok too....

( It means there are more components out there for the rest of us !! )

[cwall64]

Not to bring politics into it, but what if we have another run on ammunition availability? I have enough components to keep me going for a while and the willingness to spend my valuable time investing in ammo creation! During the last run on ammo they raised the prices and the shelves were still empty, but it did not affect my shooting... My components bought over time are an initial outlay of cash, but the price/value is fixed - if ammo runs up again then I am avoiding an unnecessary cost.

I am sure that I could have invested that money (initial investment in supplies) in the stock market and had a greater return on my investment, but then I would not be able to shot as much as I do.

It is a hobby for me that I throughly enjoy, love working up my custom loads for calibers that are outrageously priced now. And it is done in my spare time instead of vegging out in front of the TV... So, I would be wasting valuable time either way! My wife likes it to because I am out of her way!!!

[leadcounsel]

During the last run on ammo they raised the prices and the shelves were still empty,

According to all of the reloaders I heard complain, most components were dry or inflated prices too...

This actually works against the reloading argument. While in my example the person sitting on 100,000 factory ammo could double their money, all that reloaded ammo still remains effectively worth no resale $...

[cwall64]

Except I have no interest in selling my ammo, and I have enough components to weather a dry spell and then some... Being shelf suffenient is more important to me.

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by leadcounsel

Sad attempt with the cooking versus eating out analogy.

No worse than the assumption that someone can be generating income anytime they desire.

Originally Posted by leadcounsel

right now as I sit on TFL, it's technically costing me money in time I could be billing hours, working on schoolwork, writing my novel, filing my provisional patent paperwork, etc. which are all income generating activities.

I can understand the billable hours, but how much do you believe that you are making for doing your schoolwork, writing your novel, or filing for a provisional patent? Who exactly is paying you for those activities? Do they issue you a W2 or pay you under the table? Are you dividing a scholarship award by your school hours to determine how much you are making while doing schoolwork? Are you a published author under contract for another novel? Are you already receiving royalties on your invention? If so, I can understand your confusion. Very few people are so talented and have such opportunities. I know this will be hard for you to believe, but most people don't even have the opportunity to work overtime or work a second job anytime they desire.

In the real world, there are millions of people with degrees who are looking for jobs, even more millions of unpublished authors, and millions of patents which aren't worth the paper they're printed on. None of those activities generate guaranteed income.

On the other hand, the loads that I'm developing to win the 1,000 yard national championship while you're wasting time on useless schoolwork, unpublished novels, and useless patents will make me millions in endorsements (watch out Tubb!)! Should I report that potential income that I'm making right now sitting here developing those loads to the IRS next year?

[WVsig]

Why is it that everyone gets so defensive when someone brings up the fact that there might be a "cost" to the time that people spend reloading? People act as if the person who brings this concept up is attacking the institution of reloading and must be driven from the flock. For many people time is money. For many people "free time" is limited. Real work hours take up most of their day and what "free time" they have is best spent doing something that they enjoy regardless of its cost.

It seems simple to me. If you enjoy reloading and treat it like a hobby it makes sense to do it. If you like to customize your rounds for accuracy, recoil etc... reloading is the only way to do it so it makes sense to reload. Almost all hobbies cost money. If you enjoy reloading it is time well spend if if there are no real savings or the savings are "exaggerated".

If reloading is like work and you do not enjoy it the savings, if there really are any savings, will not make sense for you. Your time be it leisure or billable time will be wasted doing something you do not enjoy and you could avoid at a limited cost. There will be an economic or even more importantly an emotional cost to this wasted time.

It is an individual decision which does not have a right or wrong answer. What it does have is a million subjective ways to calculate if it makes sense for "you" to reload. Depending on how you approach the problem you can get different answers to the question "will I save money reloading" but the answer is always subjective. You can do a lot of calculations and present a lot of different arguments for both sides which will be logically sound but based on "subjective" premises and assumptions so in the end you will not have objective Truth. You will have subjective truth or what I like to call truth with the little "t". Truth with the big "T" can only come from objectively true premises leading logically to objectively true conclusions.

What leadcounsel, 45_auto and others in this discussion are talking to truth with the little "t". IMHO. They are interesting mental logical arguments but their "Truth" value is limited by the subjectivity of their premises. In the end both camps have already made up their minds on the subject and are simply presenting and argument to fit their predetermined subjective conclusion.



To the OP reload if you think you will enjoy the process if you are doing it solely to save money I would simply start buying ammo in bulk at good prices and enjoy your "free time". Also you must consider that the calibers you are reloading are very common calibers which can be had a commodity pricing which if you buy smart will greatly reduce your factory ammo shooting cost. IMHO

[Gravedigger56]

To the OP reload if you think you will enjoy the process if you are doing it solely to save money I would simply start buying ammo in bulk at good prices and enjoy your "free time". Also you must consider that the calibers you are reloading are very common calibers which can be had a commodity pricing which if you buy smart will greatly reduce your factory ammo shooting cost. IMHO

Well put.

If it weren't for my reloading sessions after work I'd probably just be wasting my time in front of the TV or computer anyway. I find reloading very relaxing and a great way to "wind down" after a busy day at work. Never really got into it to save money but instead of wanting to learn another phase of the hobby and in search of the "perfect recipe" for each of my guns.

One part of reloading that I enjoy most is brass preparation which surprises many people. I really enjoy wet tumbling and all that is involved even if it does require more work. I catch a lot of static over it on many forums where it is considered a waste of time but like the rest of reloading, I do it because I enjoy it!

[44 AMP]

If you are focused on making money, or not losing money, saving money, etc (and please explain in simple words if this is NOT the main focus of economic and business courses), then anything that does not make money is costing you money.

I understand this. It is a very narrow focus, and I don't think it should be applied to everything in life, but I understand the reasoning. I just don't agree.

I would also like to point out that analysis of "saving money" by buying factory ammo ONLY applies to the most popular common rounds.

For example, a 50rnd box of 9mm Luger at Midway is $12.99 (the cheapest listed). A 20 rnd box of .45 Win Mag is $32.99, and it is unavailable (seasonal run- meaning they are out, and will be out until the factory makes more, whenever that happens to be)

In .458 Win Mag, the cheapest listed was $4.70 per round.

despite the cost of my time, and the floor space, and everything else, I can still make .458Win Mag for a lot less than that.

ALSO, when adding up all the factors that go into the cost of making reloads, one thing I didn't see factored in is any attempt to break down the "cost" by caliber/cartridge.

Somehow, I think the "costs" for someone who is loading one or two of the most common calibers would be different from someone who loads over 30 including some that NO ONE is making factory ammo for today.

[shootniron]

WVsig...the reason people object to the "cost" of the time is because these folks are valuing the time at work hour salary rates...apparently you do not understand it, either. We all know that it takes time to reload...but I cannot be working at my job during the times I reload. The price that I pay for my reloading time is no tv, Rugerforum, TFL or castboolits...don't get paid for that, either.

[leadcounsel]

I cannot be working at my job during the times I reload.

Untrue. I just did a study regarding this. Uber has been so successful because people are using their down time and their car, which sits idle, to make money in their free time. Ignore Uber for the sake of argument, but you can really get a job doing simple things. Like I said, my tailor is a school teacher by day, tailor in the evenings and weekends, and they bid on storage lockers. It appears she makes a good 2nd and 3rd cash income.

I can understand the billable hours, but how much do you believe that you are making for doing your schoolwork, writing your novel, or filing for a provisional patent? Who exactly is paying you for those activities? Do they issue you a W2 or pay you under the table? Are you dividing a scholarship award by your school hours to determine how much you are making while doing schoolwork? Are you a published author under contract for another novel? Are you already receiving royalties on your invention?

Frankly, I don't know direct economic the value of my schoolwork, but I'm using 16 months of my GI Bill, getting a $50,000 education, and getting $20,000 cash payment to get it over 16 months. And the education itself is hard to affix a pricetag. Since I'm a businessman, it helps my understand of things like "opportunity cost" which clearly a lot of people don't get. Same with my patent and novel ideas. Maybe it's worth nothing but the experience and process, maybe they're make me a multi-millionaire. Dunno.

I do know that reloaded ammo has value generally ONLY to the reloader, and otherwise it's a product that you combine 4 valuable parts to make something that has no economic value. Seems like a poor economic investment. It's an unusual occurrence to purposefully combine the sum of parts to make something with less economic value. Sure, it presumably is useful to the maker, will shoot, etc. But are you willing to shoot a stranger's reloads? Not me.

There are intangibles, such as lowering stress. If reloading lowers stress, then that's a value. But would it be of more value to instead during your "downtime" hit the gym, go for a walk, play with pets at the animal shelter, run a few miles, do some situps...? Economic costs for these are nominal (my gym membership costs $1 per week at 24 hour fitness, because I'm a good negotiator - education pays off). But the payoffs may save you a $500,000 heart bypass surgery and add years to life....

If reloading reduces stress, adds fulfillment to life, etc, then there are definitely long-term intangible economic benefits that are hard to causally calculate.

I just wish reloaders would stop with the blanket statements that reloading saves money, because it's just not true for a lot of people.

[Shootest]

I did the math.
One box/50 of factory Winchester 357Mag 125g JHP sells for $49.47.
I only use new never loaded Starline brass for full power loads. $8.00/50
Once fired this brass is used for reduced range loads.
I used 17.5g of Alliant 2400 powder for a cost of $4.25/50
Winchester primers for $2.00/50
Winchester 125g JHP bullets $7.00/50

Total $ 21.25
Added shipping/Haz=Mat fees $ 1.25
Grand total $22.50
Savings of $26.97
Even if I wanted figure in my time and took a half hour to set up my XL 650. I can, at a leisurely pace, easily load a box in 10 minutes. So the first hour the minimum production rate is at least three boxes and in two hours at least nine boxes. For a two hour total savings of $242.73
Now I don’t know about you guys but I don’t make $121.36 in an hour at my job.
I challenge anyone to tell me I am not saving money.

P.S. all of the component prices above are rounded up today’s price, not the price of my old stock.

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by Shootest

I did the math.
One box/50 of factory Winchester 357Mag 125g JHP sells for $49.47.
I only use new never loaded Starline brass for full power loads. $8.00/50
Once fired this brass is used for reduced range loads.
I used 17.5g of Alliant 2400 powder for a cost of $4.25/50
Winchester primers for $2.00/50
Winchester 125g JHP bullets $7.00/50

Total $ 21.25
Added shipping/Haz=Mat fees $ 1.25
Grand total $22.50
Savings of $26.97
Even if I wanted figure in my time and took a half hour to set up my XL 650. I can, at a leisurely pace, easily load a box in 10 minutes. So the first hour the minimum production rate is at least three boxes and in two hours at least nine boxes. For a two hour total savings of $242.73
Now I don’t know about you guys but I don’t make $121.36 in an hour at my job.
I challenge anyone to tell me I am not saving money.

P.S. all of the component prices above are rounded up today’s price, not the price of my old stock.

It is amazing how close minded people are on this subject. The more people attempt to prove their point the more they miss the mark. Did the OP mention that he was going to loading .357 mag or did you simply pick that example because it suits your preconceived and predetermined conclusion.

Shootest one has to ask how you are accounting for the initial outlay of cash for the equipment, reloading bench, the space in your home etc... you are limiting the "cost" of your reloads to components only which is really only half the equation. You crafted your example to meet your predetermined conclusion. Its lack of objectivity and validity is apparent.

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

If you are focused on making money, or not losing money, saving money, etc (and please explain in simple words if this is NOT the main focus of economic and business courses), then anything that does not make money is costing you money.

I understand this. It is a very narrow focus, and I don't think it should be applied to everything in life, but I understand the reasoning. I just don't agree.

I would also like to point out that analysis of "saving money" by buying factory ammo ONLY applies to the most popular common rounds.

For example, a 50rnd box of 9mm Luger at Midway is $12.99 (the cheapest listed). A 20 rnd box of .45 Win Mag is $32.99, and it is unavailable (seasonal run- meaning they are out, and will be out until the factory makes more, whenever that happens to be)

In .458 Win Mag, the cheapest listed was $4.70 per round.

despite the cost of my time, and the floor space, and everything else, I can still make .458Win Mag for a lot less than that.

ALSO, when adding up all the factors that go into the cost of making reloads, one thing I didn't see factored in is any attempt to break down the "cost" by caliber/cartridge.

Somehow, I think the "costs" for someone who is loading one or two of the most common calibers would be different from someone who loads over 30 including some that NO ONE is making factory ammo for today.

I can understand some of what you are saying and I believe I that reloading has a lot of value but if you look at the OP which has been lost in the discussion the OP is loading 9mm, 45 ACP and 556/223. The OPs is asking about saving money reloading the 3 of the most common/popular rounds. The original discussion was about reloading 3 popular rounds so pointing out you saving money loading obscure or out of production rounds does not fit the discussion. So arguing that he is going to save money loading .458 Win Mag is nothing but a red herring. It does not answer the OPs question IMHO.

Also using MidwayUSA and an example of cheap 9mm is a strawman argument. As others told the OP using MidwayUSA as an example of low pricing for ammo or reloading components is futile. You can get factory loaded brass 9mm for as low as about $210 delivered to your door.

I am not even arguing against reloading. I recently decided to do it. I will most likely continue and will eventually step up to a progressive yet too many people seems to go into attack mode as soon anyone suggests that the economics are not a rosy as many people attempt to present them. One has to ask why?

[A pause for the COZ]

This is getting fun now.

I will also agree with the above poster who commented on shortages.
Although not necessarily part of the OP's question.

It is fair to note: Reloading offers a financial incentive as well as an availability incentive when times are tough.

As an example as a benefit of reloading: ME

I am Immune... Completely not just a little. Immune to the whims of the shooting masses.

I take advantage of economy of scale. I maintain at least a two year supply of components. Powder/ Primers/ Cases.
Projectiles. I have 100% unless I want. Converted to Lead cast bullets that I melt and mold my self.
I have a 1000 pound stash of lead that I can melt as needed for projectiles.


Thats a little less than 50,000 158gr 38 special bullets. But I make what I need.

Plus, I catch 80% of the ones I do shoot to remelt and shoot again.

So in reality I am free from the market. I shoot when and what I want.

2008 when I could not find a sleeve of primers for at least a month. Then I paid $7 for it. Cured me of that.

So now I only buy when they are plentiful and on sale.

[Shootest]

Shootest one has to ask how you are accounting for the initial outlay of cash for the equipment, reloading bench, the space in your home etc... you are limiting the "cost" of your reloads to components only which is really only half the equation. You crafted your example to meet your predetermined conclusion. Its lack of objectivity and validity is apparent.

Well the equipment is 20 years old and I could sell it for what I paid for it if not more. Not that it hasn’t paid for its self years ago. So that is a wash. The reloading bench cost me about $100.00 to build five years ago and the cost of it spread over the thousands of rounds loaded on it is to small to figure. Nor did I accout for the cost of the electricity used by the case feeder and the lights but you got to be kidding me. As far as the space is concerned I would still have paid for it even if I didn’t reload so I can’t see how you think I should add it to my cost. How much does the couch in your living room cost you to sit on? I chose the 357 mag because it is the most recent loading session I completed. I could have chosen 44 mag or 30/06 or many others. How can you clam that it is not valid when it is absolute fact?
Talk about closed minded, are you telling me the OP will never load any caliber other than the 3 he listed?
Oh, but I conceded, your fancy collage degree in BS makes you correct and any one that disagrees wrong even when an example is placed right in front of you.

[overthere]

leadcounsel, it is clear you view the world through a prism of academia. That tends to wear off over the years as one gets older becomes more jaded from 'the real world'.

Here is one thing you need to understand about 'regular folk', to which I like to count myself.

I do not want to spend every waking hour working a second or third job in order to make another dollar. I just don't. In fact, I value my leisure time highly and I wish I had more of it. If I did have more of it, I would not spend that time driving for Uber or some other income generating activity.

Believe it or not, outside of academic economic models, everyone does not seek to maximize their economic income / output. This is disappointing to economics students everywhere... they tend to believe that the models they are taught are how the world actually works in the small, as opposed as in the large.

Take this example:

- I spend $120 to buy 100 rounds to match quality ammo to either use in a competition, or just to punch hole in paper to enjoy the act of precision shooting. After this I spend 4 hours watching Seinfeld reruns, or cat videos, or a combination of both, yay!

- I spend $60 on components to load 100 rounds of match quality ammo, this takes me 4 hours robbing me of valuable seinfeld / cat video time but I don't mind since I really like reloading

Did I save $60? If I did it 10 times, did I save $600?

In my world - yes. In your world - how dare I be a lazy and watch Seinfeld reruns when I could be value maximizing my existence by driving for Uber / learn Chinese to get that interpreter job / study for tests to get another academic credential.

In the end, real world for individuals != macro economic models, and, perhaps more importantly, people like to spend their time on what they think is fun and enjoy

[leadcounsel]

Flame on... I'm no fun, I'm a downer, blah blah blah... nobody likes an intellectual conversation or honest answer to the OPs question.

Some folks just cannot grasp the concept of the OP - COST/BENEFIT. IT IS NOT WHICH HOBBY YOU ENJOY MOST, OR HOW YOU SPEND YOUR FREE TIME..

After this I spend 4 hours watching Seinfeld reruns, or cat videos, or a combination of both, yay!

And if the OP had asked if it makes ECONOMICAL sense to laze around and watch TV the answer would also be NO. Unless your alternative was drinking $5 drinks all night in a bar and risking a DUI, in which case then maybe you could say it IS more economical. Again, it's "opportunity costs." There is merit to being lazy and relaxing, no matter how you do it. But it technically is wasting your time from an income or economical viewpoint. For the life of me I can't see why otherwise presumably intelligent people can't grasp this.

There's learning skills, hobbies, and there's savings. Reloaders can try to justify the savings but there simply aren't any for gainfully employed folks, no matter how you slice it - at least not for 5 years, 10 years or more....

This has become akin to the hunter who thinks he saves money on food by hunting.

$500-1000 for rifle, scope and ammo. $50 hunting permit. Gas, sitting around for hours, IF you get a deer, bringing it home, butchering it, cleanup, etc. for 50-70 pounds of venison. Probably miss out on 10, 20, 30 hours of time you could be working or earning money...

You can get lean meat for $5-10 pound in 5 minutes at the butcher.

Again, you'd have to score a deer every year for several years for it to make ECONOMICAL sense. It doesn't. It's simply a good skill to have, hobby, whatnot.

If you're looking out to 5 deer to break even or make money, or 5 years of reloading to break even, then that is a long-term investment where you are ECONOMICALLY losing money every time you do it until you hit that break even point...

If you enjoy it then it's worth it. If you don't enjoy hunting or reloading or whatever, then it's probably not worth it.

[Metal god]

When you rent an apartment, or buy a home, you are paying X $ per square footage.

I've always considered that a false cost number . My house cost what it cost to live in . It has the same sq ft if I reload or not . If I choose to do something in that space that saves money in any way I saved money on that sq footage not loose money or count the cost of sq ft twice . It's already being paid for to live in so the reloading sq-ft are free because the space is already paid for .

Kinda like the government saying the cost to deploy the military cost $x amount of dollars . That cost includes the pay for each military member , cost of operating the equipment etc . Well the solders are being paid no matter if they were deployed or not , they already have and use the equipment . My point is a lot of the deployment cost is going to be spent no matter what . The cost of the deployment should only cost the extra money to do so . Like fuel to get there and operate the extra equipment . Any extra munitions used they would not use in training . I'm thinking the actual cost would be much less then they make it out to be .

Now that's deployment not war .

[overthere]

There is merit to being lazy and relaxing, no matter how you do it. But it technically is wasting your time from an income or economical viewpoint. For the life of me I can't see why otherwise presumably intelligent people can't grasp this.

Well, Sheldon (this is a humorous reference, Big Bang Theory etc.), a lot of people who would consider themselves fairly intelligent do not define their existence from a purely income / economical viewpoint. There are such things as Life Quality and Enjoyment that take precedence of Maximizing Economical Output for an individual, even if that is not the case in theoretical models.

If you wish to call that lazy, go right ahead. Most other people call it 'enjoying life', 'having a good time', or something to that effect.

[shootniron]

Y'all have to understand that leadcounsel puts forward these inane arguments so the he can tout his "education" and when he is called on it...he then casts the discourse to be esoteric and not within the grasp of the common man, to be fully understood.

This is nothing other than his way of stroking his ego.

[Jeffm004]

Oh, oh... Can I play. If you want to find opportunity costs, flip between Facebook and the firing line too much.

Lead counsel either is, or wants to be, billing in 6 minute intervals. By the time he realizes how horrid that really is, it will be too late.

Don't forget, every dollar you save is after tax money, it takes two to replace it. I put the reloading gear away in 1992 with the intent of making so much money I'd never need it again. During the big shortage, it and 3 lb of 20 year old 231 went back to work. The range was sooo nice and empty.

I now load between the wash start and the end of dry, a little here and a little there and I am very ammo heavy. Storing it is a problem heavy. I concur, if you do not like it, you are better off buying it but for 1/3 the cost it can still come in handy. I did the math, I make about $50/hr loading the lowest margin 9mm. That, means I need $2 to replace it, $100/hr. It has become my out of sight time. Better than TV.

Good luck LC. You're going to need it. My helpful hint.... Nah, no one ever listens.

I'm looking for a Dillon 650 if you are done and want to sell it? You will not need it, or have time to use it. That dry cleaning guy that comes by your office, yeah, that is not for you, that is there to squeeze one more hour out of you. And you just blew $15 of billing reading this.

[leadcounsel]

It was just a matter of time until the personal attacks would flow...

Folks just can't accept that reloading isn't this windfall, any more than it's more economical to do a lot of things. In fact, it's the same analysis generally as efficiency studies done a century ago, and the assembly line concept. Folks are more efficient when specialized.

Nobody has really addressed the arguments I made dozens of posts ago... just resorting to personal attacks.

One of the biggest points is the fact that you can't effectively store the economic value of your labor. Store up a huge pile of ammo, and it ONLY has value to you. Read this thread over at THR to see that another person's reloads are of no value, and are a pain to dispose of. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...highlight=dead

Conversely, if you have a pile of factory ammo, you can generally recoup all of your investment.

[Metal god]

LC : Just because you're not wrong , that does not make you right . Just like absence of evidence is not evidence of absences

I know what I believe are guys like you . To smart for your own good and tend to over analyze things . Which often ends up in analysis paralysis where one analyzes something so much they can't come to a conclusion or decision .

I once had a friend say after I told him I bought a set of check weights . "how do you know they are accurate" . He then went on to talk about weights and scales and how there is only one official scale in the US . If the check weights were not checked there you really have no idea if there are accurate . Just because he was not wrong does not make what he was saying right . The fact the weights were not checked by NASA does not mean anything .