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Old July 11, 2019, 11:47 AM   #1
totaldla
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Is it worth loading 40SW up to 10mm levels?

I like Ramshot Enforcer (AA 4100) and I use it a lot in my 44 mag loadings. Enforcer also has a place for producing high velocities at safe pressures in other cartridges - in this case the 40SW.

I have published load data showing a 4" barrel velocity of 1300+fps with a 165gr Montana Gold FMJ. And this data has been confirmed by other folks who've tried it.

My M&P40 Compact (4" barrel) wasn't much money, and I like it a lot for a woods gun. A 165gr fmj at 1300+fps will drill a 40cal hole a long ways - likely nose to kidneys on a bear.

What do you all think? Is it worth it to hot-rod the 40SW into 10mm territory?
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Old July 11, 2019, 12:53 PM   #2
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Very much doubt it'd make any difference. Other than beating your pistol up.
AA 4100 doesn't currently appear in Western Powders Ramshot data for the .40 S&W or 10mm. Supposedly it's too bulky for the S&W.
DO NOT use an FMJ on any game other than varmints for any reason. FMJ's are not designed for hunting anything.
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Old July 11, 2019, 02:56 PM   #3
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That ain't anywhere near 10mm levels. I carry DoubleTap 200 gr loads at 1300 fps in my 10mm. You need a HEAVIER bullet than 165gr and FMJ bullets don't penetrate as well as hardcast, at least not in a straight line.

If you want a woods gun capable of stopping larger predators both Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap offer 200 gr hardcast loads at 1000-1100 fps. That ain't 10mm territory, but it'll work.

You're unlikely to shoot a lot of these. Just buy them off the shelf for this and handload to save money on range loads.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...uct_list&c=142

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.p...product_id=607

I don't understand how O'Heir can stand to be wrong on almost every post he makes. Your choice will work, and has proven so. Even the 147 gr 9mm hardcast has shown it will bring down the largest brown bear in Alaska.
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Old July 11, 2019, 05:46 PM   #4
totaldla
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I mentioned the MG 165 FMJ because that is the exact bullet used in the 1300+fps load. And it is not a "ball" round, but rather a flat point. That stuff usually penetrates farther than anything else - especially more than WFN. I was looking at maximizing penetration with velocity, since increasing Sectional Density requires a heavy bullet - not enough case capacity.

I doubt I could Kaboom anything with Enforcer as it is very slow and most high-end charges are getting compressed.

Anyways - just a thought. I have a 329pd to carry already so I don't really need to fiddle around with the 40SW.
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Old July 11, 2019, 06:48 PM   #5
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Those bullets appear to be marketed as target bullets most likely a soft core and thin jacket.

As such I would be hesitant of the ability to penetrate "nose to kidneys on a bear" while staying intact, especially at such high relative velocity, without some testing first...

Maybe with a better bullet?
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Old July 11, 2019, 07:24 PM   #6
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No , I don't think it's worth it . The 40 S&W is already a fairly high intensity / high pressure round . The S&W MP40 is probably operating at it's upper limits as is...
Hot rodding it to 10mm levels is just asking for premature wear and tear .
If you want 10mm performance get a 10mm that was designed for it .
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Old July 11, 2019, 07:44 PM   #7
totaldla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwpercle

No , I don't think it's worth it . The 40 S&W is already a fairly high intensity / high pressure round . The S&W MP40 is probably operating at it's upper limits as is...
Hot rodding it to 10mm levels is just asking for premature wear and tear .
If you want 10mm performance get a 10mm that was designed for it .
Gary
The 40SW SAAMI MAP is 35Kpsi. The 10mm SAAMI MAP is 37.5Kpsi. The 40SW isn't a "high pressure round" IMO. It's just another cartridge.
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Old July 12, 2019, 09:50 AM   #8
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I'd never push a .40 S&W to 10MM limits. It isn't worth losing a weapon or any body parts risking that. Spend some time on Youtube looking at glock kaboom videos and outcomes and then you'll likely let go of this notion. If you have concerns about bears then get a weapon that can knock them down within factory spec and don't try to push a .40 S&W up to a job it isn't designed for.

Stay safe.
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Old July 12, 2019, 10:23 AM   #9
totaldla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey_Lion

I'd never push a .40 S&W to 10MM limits. It isn't worth losing a weapon or any body parts risking that. Spend some time on Youtube looking at glock kaboom videos and outcomes and then you'll likely let go of this notion. If you have concerns about bears then get a weapon that can knock them down within factory spec and don't try to push a .40 S&W up to a job it isn't designed for.

Stay safe.
The load I'm talking about was tested - 31Kpsi.

That's the joy of using a really slow powder like Enforcer - you run out of case capacity before you run out of pressure.
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Old July 12, 2019, 10:33 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totaldla View Post
The load I'm talking about was tested - 31Kpsi.

That's the joy of using a really slow powder like Enforcer - you run out of case capacity before you run out of pressure.
OK - but then you're not really talking about pushing the .40 S&W into 10MM pressures.

Still wouldn't want to meet a bear with that. :-)
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Old July 12, 2019, 04:45 PM   #11
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totaldla, if you have the components, maybe try some and see what speeds you get - and let us know!

p.s. I have that old Ramshot Enforcer data, too. I've tried the 45 Auto but haven't tried the 40 S&W.
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Old July 12, 2019, 10:23 PM   #12
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Just buy a 10MM.
Much much safer and it’s what you’re looking for.
You also want lose any fingers or eyes
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Old July 12, 2019, 10:57 PM   #13
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The 40SW isn't a "high pressure round" IMO. It's just another cartridge.
It may be just another cartridge, but it has the (possibly deserved?) reputation of being a grenade in waiting.

If I recall correctly, Glocks aren't the only thing that a problem with a .40 has made go Ka-boom.

That being the case, I don't consider further jacking up the pressure to reach 10mm velocity levels (and in a 4"??? really??) to be an advisable undertaking.
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Old July 13, 2019, 09:30 AM   #14
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Quote:

That being the case, I don't consider further jacking up the pressure to reach 10mm velocity levels (and in a 4"??? really??) to be an advisable undertaking.
Quote:
Just buy a 10MM.
Much much safer and it’s what you’re looking for.
You also want lose any fingers or eyes.
Apparently neither of you noticed that the OP is talking about a load that is under the 40 S&W's max pressure limit.

See post #9
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Old July 13, 2019, 10:11 AM   #15
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Ramshot enforcer is not listed in the reloading guide as a suitable powder for the 40S&W.
http://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/up....0-Web-REV.pdf

The OP is going to run out of case capacity before he gets to 10MM power levels.
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Old July 13, 2019, 10:13 AM   #16
74A95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikejonestkd View Post
Ramshot enforcer is not listed in the rloading guide as a suitable powder for the 40S&w.
The OP is going to run out of case capacity before he gets to 10MM power levels.
It's not listed in the current loading guide. It is listed in past guides.
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Old July 13, 2019, 10:15 AM   #17
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I stand by my previous post, The OP is going to run out of case capacity before he gets to 10MM levels.
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Old July 13, 2019, 04:11 PM   #18
totaldla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikejonestkd

I stand by my previous post, The OP is going to run out of case capacity before he gets to 10MM levels.
Depending on the manufacturer, [email protected] from a 4" tube is 10mm level.
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Old July 14, 2019, 07:57 AM   #19
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Knock yourself out.
Not for me though. I disliked my 40 S&W enough that i sold pistol & dies..

I'll stick with 9mm & 45 ACP.
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Old July 14, 2019, 07:38 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
If I recall correctly, Glocks aren't the only thing that a problem with a .40 has made go Ka-boom.
The .40 S&W kaboom issues came about primarily because the breech of gen 1 through 3 Glock .40 S&Ws didn't fully support the case resulting in a higher proportion of case failures resulting in occasional catastrophic equipment failures and injuries or "glock smiles".

But case & equipment failures aren't unknown in many other calibers and weapons models & manufacturers......

I brought the issue up here because the OP was named in such a way as to suggest pushing one size of bullet into a higher than advisable pressure - something we all typically discourage as dangerous.

And yes - I noticed the specific load in the OP was within .40 S&W tolerances but that wasn't made clear until deeper into the thread.

As for the comment made that you can't load a .40 case to 10mm pressure levels - you can - depends upon the powder brand. It could happen with Titegroup if you dual charge by accident.
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Old July 14, 2019, 07:46 PM   #21
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First I suggest you test those bullets on something before you decide they are good enough for a "woods load". Most cheap copper jacketed bullets ive messed with acted like a soft lead bullet when impacting the target. Secondly if your going to try and hotrod pistol rounds make sure your weapon is up to the task or you risk catastrophic consequences
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Old July 14, 2019, 08:33 PM   #22
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And yes - I noticed the specific load in the OP was within .40 S&W tolerances but that wasn't made clear until deeper into the thread.
I went back though the thread, I can find where the OP talks about the powder TYPE, the bullet, his gun, the velocity of a "published load" and the pressure of that load being within SAAMI specs, but I cannot find where he says what the load IS (charge weight).

If its in there, would someone please point it out to me?

Because, otherwise, we really don't know exactly what he's talking about.

Do we??
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Old July 14, 2019, 09:08 PM   #23
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Because, otherwise, we really don't know exactly what he's talking about.

Do we?
It appears to me that we are talking about making hand grenades by taking a cartridge outside of its design range.
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Old July 14, 2019, 10:49 PM   #24
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I think blowing up a 40, trying for it to be a 10mm, is not the best rationalizion for buying the 10mm you think you want.
Longshot powder will get you best performance in either.
I recommend that you test fire a 10mm. In the Glock Compact G29 some people do not like the hand twisting recoil in a smaller (than a 1911) gun.
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Old July 15, 2019, 12:01 AM   #25
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The closest you can come to 10mm with .40 is using Vihtavuori 3n38, you can push a 165 grain bullet to 1250 fps or a 200 grain bullet to 1030 fps using published loads.
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