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Old July 10, 2019, 08:03 AM   #51
Bartholomew Roberts
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I own a Smart Carry and my experience mirrors JohnKSa’s. Using a timer, Smart Carry may be; but is not always, faster than pocket carry. If you have the right gear set up and start with your hand on the pistol, pocket carry is usually faster.

However, if you position the pistol in SmartCarry so it is just barely below the beltline, and then violate the four rules by sticking your offhand under the muzzle and pushing up (like the world’s most grotesque crotch adjustment) while drawing, then Smart Carry can be very fast.

The issue with that though is you are consciously violating one of the four rules. You can violate any ONE of the four rules safely without serious consequence; but violating TWO frequently results in problems. By consciously disregarding one from the start, you reduce your margin of error. If you start combining that with a lot of training repetitions, you are basically buying tickets in the “Free Body Piercings Done Now!” lottery.

About the only thing I like about Smart Carry is you can carry a 19-ish sized pistol in circumstances where it is otherwise impossible (swim trunks only, tucked in shirt with no jacket, etc.).

Also, be careful sitting down as, uh, parts can get nipped, depending on the tailoring of your clothing.
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Old July 10, 2019, 09:03 AM   #52
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The pocket carry guys always want to use the "hand on the pistol" time when claiming speed of draw, and no doubt, that would be a tad quicker. But who walks around with their hand in the pockets every minute?

I think a more realistic base, would be a "startle" draw, where you start from an "any given moment" of the day stance.

Either way, if youre paying attention and see it coming, you can still get to the gun fairly quick. With either, I would want to gain some distance if things are close, the last thing you want, is to be caught with your hand in your pocket or down your pants, if someone is within reach.

My buddy was an avid pocket carrier (to the point of having a TPH "Skoal ring" in all his pants) who always claimed how fast it was, until, when we did a little test, as hard as he tried, I repeatedly wouldnt allow him to draw it when I was only a couple of steps away.

I dont know about you, but people with their hands in their pockets are suspicious to me. Especially if they were to be going into them as I approach.

Not that someone reaching down their pants wouldnt be a little strange too.

The other thing often skipped over by the pocket carry people is, getting the gun out of your pants while seated. Now I know, with the pants I normally wear, I cant even get my hand "in" my pockets while seated, without a lot of gyrations. Just getting my keys flashlight, etc out, is a PITA.

SC, just lean back a little, suck your gut in a little, and the gun is right there.


I carry the gun just below the belt with my SC. Draw your gut in a little, and slip your fingers behind the pants at the buckle, and the gun is right there. No need to "push up", although that would probably work too, as long as the gun didnt get hung up.

Its really no different than drawing IWB, just, the gun is a bit deeper.

I dont see that any of the four rules is being violated on the draw, or at least not for me anyway. I dont "push up". I slip my fingers in front, and my thumb behind, and draw the gun up.


And as with anything, your clothing choice is going to be a factor. For me, even if I didnt have all the junk in my pockets I normally do (no room for a gun if I wanted), any handgun, even my Seecamp, would still be a challenge to get out quickly.

If you wear something like dress slacks, or something looser fitting, it may be easier.

Hey, the only way to know if something is going to work for you, is to give it a good try and see. We are lucky enough these days, to have so much readily available, it would be pretty hard not to find something that works well. And of course, what works well for one, may not work at all for another.

But you do have to prove that to yourself. From what Ive seen, most who complain about the SC's have never used one and dont understand them.

Bartholomew and John are actually the first two Ive talked to who use or have used them, to not like them. And thats absolutely fine, at least they tried it to know.
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Old July 10, 2019, 10:37 AM   #53
Bill DeShivs
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The Keltec P 32 and P2AT (and possibly the Ruger LCP) can be carried inside the waistband BELOW the line of sight, simply by using the factory belt clip.
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Old July 10, 2019, 02:17 PM   #54
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I dont know about you, but people with their hands in their pockets are suspicious to me. Especially if they were to be going into them as I approach.

Not that someone reaching down their pants wouldnt be a little strange too.
A lot more strange than just reaching in your pocket. For keys, cell phone, change, gum, or what ever.
But reaching down the front of your pants as someone approaches might just run them off on it's own!

Quote:
The Keltec P 32 and P2AT (and possibly the Ruger LCP) can be carried inside the waistband BELOW the line of sight, simply by using the factory belt clip.
But you forget bill, those aren't "realistic" guns in "realistic" calibers.
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Old July 10, 2019, 02:43 PM   #55
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Polo shirt and shorts, summer attire.

Seated with pistol directly facing camera, good luck seeing it.


Surprise, a full size 1911 was concealed.
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Old July 10, 2019, 03:13 PM   #56
AK103K
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Originally Posted by Cheapshooter View Post

But you forget bill, those aren't "realistic" guns in "realistic" calibers.
So true, but they are cute, and all the rage these days with the fashionable crowd.
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Old July 10, 2019, 07:41 PM   #57
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AK103, if you don't mind my asking, are you involved with the Smartcarry business somehow?
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Old July 10, 2019, 08:00 PM   #58
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDW4ME
Polo shirt and shorts, summer attire.
Still my favorite way to carry. I’ll also throw in the Hawaiian shirt, guayabera, or short sleeve casual button up shirt just to mix it up every now and then.

Occasionally though, I like to wear a fitted shirt instead of the sack hanging off your shoulders look. And of course, sometimes the untucked shirt look is inappropriate.

I remember being at a CLE and everyone is wearing slacks and jackets. Most are wearing ties. A guy walks in wearing khaki cargo pants and an untucked polo with a flashlight and a pocket knife visibly clipped to the pockets. I kept looking til I spotted the gun.
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Old July 11, 2019, 04:24 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by TXAZ View Post
AK103, if you don't mind my asking, are you involved with the Smartcarry business somehow?
Nope, no affiliation.
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Old July 11, 2019, 01:54 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
Still my favorite way to carry. I’ll also throw in the Hawaiian shirt, guayabera, or short sleeve casual button up shirt just to mix it up every now and then.

Occasionally though, I like to wear a fitted shirt instead of the sack hanging off your shoulders look. And of course, sometimes the untucked shirt look is inappropriate.

I remember being at a CLE and everyone is wearing slacks and jackets. Most are wearing ties. A guy walks in wearing khaki cargo pants and an untucked polo with a flashlight and a pocket knife visibly clipped to the pockets. I kept looking til I spotted the gun.
My two most worn are either a polo with stripe or a button up with plaid, as seen here:



I'm retired, so for me there are no typical places I go where I feel compelled to tuck in my shirt; I'm content in my sloven attire.

The pistols pictured were a Ruger 10mm and a Ed Brown 45 acp - in case anyone was curious.
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Old July 11, 2019, 10:00 PM   #61
hounddog409
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Not that hard at all.

The key is a quality holster. Dont buy cheap holsters
And you will be happy.
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Old July 12, 2019, 07:07 AM   #62
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK103K
I carry the gun just below the belt with my SC. Draw your gut in a little, and slip your fingers behind the pants at the buckle, and the gun is right there. No need to "push up", although that would probably work too, as long as the gun didnt get hung up.

Its really no different than drawing IWB, just, the gun is a bit deeper.
How are you pulling that off? Elastic waistband?

The issue I run into is you have to set the pistol a certain depth. If you look at the picture you posted of Smart Carry earlier, you can see the problem. The “belt” is higher than the pocket. If you don’t want to walk around with a black elastic belt poking put of the top of your trousers, then you have to have the belt below the beltline - which means the pistol is lower still.

Since my main use for Smart Carry is to carry with a tucked in shirt in a professional environment, I also am wearing an actual belt. So, I have to reach down past the waistband and belt and get a master grip. So I am pushing out on my waistband with my stronghand to create space while trying to get my thumb in between the pistol and abdomen to get a master grip. Maybe it is a tailoring issue but it is not working well with any of my pants/slacks/jeans/trousers/shorts.

What does work for me is grabbing the exterior of my pants at crotch level and pushing the gun up above the belt by the muzzle with my off hand. The grip slides right past the belt and pops above the beltline. So, the master grip and draw go much more smoothly.

I’d love to be able to do what you describe and just reach down the front of my pants and draw but I’m not having any luck doing that in an expeditious manner. So I’m curious what you are doing different.

Quote:
Not that someone reaching down their pants wouldnt be a little strange too.
Naw, you just shout “SNAKE!” to create a distraction
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Old July 12, 2019, 10:16 AM   #63
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So true, but they are cute, and all the rage these days with the fashionable crowd.
And very capable of civilian self defense. My sarcasm obviously wasted.
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Old July 12, 2019, 03:29 PM   #64
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Not sure if just a T-shirt will work for me



I honestly don't care for pocket carry; it just doesn't work well for me. Still, I've found a decent IWB with a smaller compact like my P938, P365, or G43 are easily concealed with a simple tank-top.

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Old July 12, 2019, 05:31 PM   #65
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Wow Rock 6, I've never seen such a small holster.

Obviously it can't hold much, so I don't think a .22 would fit, much less a 9mm.

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Old July 12, 2019, 05:51 PM   #66
AK103K
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
How are you pulling that off? Elastic waistband?

The issue I run into is you have to set the pistol a certain depth. If you look at the picture you posted of Smart Carry earlier, you can see the problem. The “belt” is higher than the pocket. If you don’t want to walk around with a black elastic belt poking put of the top of your trousers, then you have to have the belt below the beltline - which means the pistol is lower still.

Since my main use for Smart Carry is to carry with a tucked in shirt in a professional environment, I also am wearing an actual belt. So, I have to reach down past the waistband and belt and get a master grip. So I am pushing out on my waistband with my stronghand to create space while trying to get my thumb in between the pistol and abdomen to get a master grip. Maybe it is a tailoring issue but it is not working well with any of my pants/slacks/jeans/trousers/shorts.

What does work for me is grabbing the exterior of my pants at crotch level and pushing the gun up above the belt by the muzzle with my off hand. The grip slides right past the belt and pops above the beltline. So, the master grip and draw go much more smoothly.

I’d love to be able to do what you describe and just reach down the front of my pants and draw but I’m not having any luck doing that in an expeditious manner. So I’m curious what you are doing different.



Naw, you just shout “SNAKE!” to create a distraction
I just got home from work. Heres a a couple of pics after 13+ hours of running around in 87 degree temps.....




The holster is meant to be below the belt/top of the pants line. Slightly deeper is better than slightly higher.

You tuck your undershirt (if youre wearing one) under the holster in the front, and pull your shirt out of the back, and its is on top of the strap, so if you bend over and things ride up, your shirt is on top of it, and nothing shows.

Two ways to draw.....

1. hook your off-hand thumb inside your pants and pull them forward, and slip your strong hand in. Thats the easiest and surest.

2. Just suck your gut in a little, and slip your strong hand in. Works just as well, but it is a little less positive if your in a hurry. But you can still easily make the draw with one hand if need be.

As with anything and any method you carry, you need put in a little time and effort to figure things out and how it will work best for you. How often have yuo ever got a new holster, and it was perfect from th first time you used it?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheapshooter View Post
And very capable of civilian self defense. My sarcasm obviously wasted.
Hey, if youre comfortable with them, knock yourself out. I used to carry them, I no longer do. I have one left, my Seecamp.

Once I realized I could carry my 26 in the exact same spots as my Seecamp, it was a no brainer.

I can shoot my 26's pretty much the same as my 17's, and at about the same distances. I cant shoot my Seecamp like that,and Ive tried. Its range is also very limited. My 26's will easily make head shots at 25 yards.

If you think only carrying a little gun is good, run some drills at the range with it, starting from how you carry it, and prove it.

Try it in FoF with something similar in size that you can shoot with, and again, start from how you carry it..

Ive shot at a lot of different ranges over the years, and the one thing Ive never seen, is anyone practicing with those type pistols, in any realistic manner.

You really dont see people shooting them all that much anyway, and if you do, its stand still and slowly squeeze them off.

Personally, I dont thing most people who carry them, arent being realistic with themselves and their skills. And most of what you hear is the "rule of three" thing, and that you wont need to be that good.

Do you regularly practice drawing and shooting how you would in just those situations?

Large caliber handguns suck as man stoppers, and yet were are constantly told anymore, that a couple of rounds of 32 or 380, will solve all problems.

If you want an interesting read on exactly this, look at the latest issue of American Handgunner (Sept/Oct 19), Ayoob has an article on three women who used these types of guns, and did prevail, but only by sheer luck. A couple of the assailants were shot multiple times, one died, two didnt, and two of the women still nearly died and were badly injured.

Contrary to what youre often told, a couple of the assailants did not stop the attack in the least, and even were more aggravated by being shot, and aggressively continued it.

And from the sounds of the womens skill levels and experience with guns (basically none), it just reinforces what I said above about seeing people practice with them.

So, you can be as sarcastic as you like, I just hope your being equally as realistic with yourself, in your skills with what you carry, and have enough gun and are prepared to continue the fight, until its done.
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Old July 12, 2019, 06:55 PM   #67
Bartholomew Roberts
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Thanks for taking the time to share the details; because that can be important in how certain carry packages work!
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Old July 12, 2019, 07:30 PM   #68
AK103K
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No problem.
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