My New Shotgun - Pre model 11 Remington?

Shopdog · June 16, 2011, 10:12 AM

Greetings Gentlemen (and ladies if present)

I found this site while researching the age of my newly acquired shotgun. My stepfather passed away this past January and I recently went down to moms to help go through stuff. I ended up bringing back four rifles, which I intend to keep as family heirlooms.

I know they are not worth much financially, but they have non tangible value that I appreciate. I'm interested in learning as much about these rifles as I can.

Since this is my first post, I'll go ahead and tell you I've been around guns all my life. I learned proper gun handling and safety in my pre-teens at summer camp. I don't know what we fired exactly back then, but I do know it was a tube fed bolt action .22 of some sort. I've had a couple rifles over the years, and I've had a Beretta 92FS for about 20 years.
I'm not a hunter nor an extremist, but I do support our rights and I enjoy taking out targets (though I haven't done it in a long time).

So, to the point of this post...

One of the guns is what I *think* is a Remington model 11 Autoloader. It Does not say Model 11 on it anywhere. I am only making this leap based on the research I've done so far. Reading here and a few other sites I think it might be a pre "Model 11" model 11... if that makes sense.

I talked to Remington and he said "if it really is a Model 11", based on the serial number it was manufactured in 1912. He suggested I give the guys at Remingtonsociety.com a try, but I had already registered here, so here is where I shall start.

So, I'm hoping you all might be able to help me narrow this down a bit more.

Like I said, it does not say Model 11 anywhere. On the left side just in front of the receiver it says "pull". On the right side same spot, there is a mark but I can't tell what it is. The serial number 127593 is underneath by the trigger. On the left side of the barrel where it says Remington Union Metalworks (or something like that, I'm not at home at the moment), the youngest patent date on it is 1903. The safety is a little nub in front of the trigger. (sorry for my highly technical firearms jargon)

So, what do ya'll think? I know 1912 is close, any thoughts on narrowing it down more?

Also, as you can see from the pictures, all the blueing is gone. I don't think I'll bother trying to do a full restore, but I'd like to polish it up shiny. Any suggestions on how to clean it up?

Finally, I've read not to use steel loads with this gun. While I'm familiar with proper gun handling and safety, the variety of ammunition out there I am not so familiar with. I do intend to have a smitty sign off on the guns soundness before I take it out, but I want to make sure I buy the right ammo so I don't screw it up. I'd only be looking to kill clay pigeons.

Thanks and here are some pictures....

(sorry about how long this got)

oneounceload · June 16, 2011, 11:05 AM

WD-40 or similar and 0000 steel wool will clean up the rust. Since you live the damp Pacific NW, you might consider some form of bluing to help stave off another rust attack - or keep it well oiled and dry

You need to verify the chamber length. Low-pressure, shorter shells are available (if needed) from Polywad and RST

Dave McC · June 16, 2011, 03:35 PM

IIRC, it was The Remington Autoloading Shotgun first, the 11 moniker was added later.

I can't recall if these had short chambers or not. A smith can give you the answer as well as.....

Deep cleaning the receiver for the first time in a century.

Replacing the fiber buffer in the reciever.

Replacing all the springs and friction pieces.

And showing you how to set up the rings for light or heavy loads.

Once that's done, go shoot it plenty.

Also, in your shoes I'd lean more to conservation than restoration. Those marks add soul. Just clean it, lube it, cherish it.

hogdogs · June 16, 2011, 06:13 PM

I am with DaveMcC on the conservation...
Personally if I seen it only in a re-blued condition, I would think it was neat...

If I looked at before and after pics I woulds say "tisk tisk tisk" under my breath and wonder how the owner could try to wash off the "character" of an obviously well worn (not obvious abuse) war horse of a gun... And keep in mind that no matter the age exactly... It is a fine OLD gun and when it rolled off the assembly line it was more than "state of the art" it was the fore runner to all things "auto loader shotgunning" to come.

Brent

shortwave · June 16, 2011, 06:22 PM

I will have to 3rd the thought of leaving the natural character of this beauty alone. Cleaning elbow grease is the only thing I would use on her.

the rifleer · June 16, 2011, 06:53 PM

I cleaned up a winchester shotgun recently that had rust like that. Just use some steel wool, It wont hurt the metal and it will take the rust right off.

30-30remchester · June 16, 2011, 08:26 PM

First off it is a model 11. For some unknown reason Remington didnt asign model numbers to all their guns the first few years. I have had one such model 11 unmarked as well as a model 12 and model 8 without actual model numbers. As for restoring, I detest any alteration to an original firearm unless abused by neglect. This gun has real caractor. It has all the bumps and abrasions from a lifetime of use. When a gun like this is restored all you end up with is a shiny "new" old gun that has had its history forever removed.

Shopdog · June 17, 2011, 09:46 AM

thanks for the comments guys.

to those that are against restoration - does that include the suggested WD-40 / 0000 steel wool, just to clean it up a bit?

I wouldn't go any further than that, but it seems to make sense I try to get any surface rust off before laying down a nice lube, no?

I'm taking it to a smitty next week and he will clean the internals, inspect, and make final judgment on its soundness. I'll be bringing a Browning A-5 factory rebuild kit with me so he can replace any springs or rings as needed.

edit: oh yeah, I think I've finalized my research on age and have concluded 1912 to be the manufacture date. Pretty cool.

hogdogs · June 17, 2011, 10:00 AM

I would, by all means, "keep it up" with all means... The steel wool job once and if you keep it up from then on, it will forever have the character it has and also what you add using it if you choose to.

I would love to see that brought out at a local "turkey shoot" at the Hunt Club Hall...

Brent

the rifleer · June 17, 2011, 11:03 AM

By using steel wool and wd-40 you are preserving it. You are removing the rust. Go ahead and use the steel wool, it will clan it up alot.

Kestrel4k · June 22, 2011, 02:51 PM

A prior thread that helped me out on this one:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282998

One of these (SN 32,xxx) just resurfaced in my family last winter (in comparable condition except for lacking the fore-end). Please update this thread w/ your experiences if you get it back into shape, as I'd love to do the same with this one.

Shopdog · June 28, 2011, 11:40 AM

ya know, it was actually that thread that I found when doing my initial Google'ing... which led me to join here.

All I plan on doing is a clean up of the exterior, which I will do myself. For the interiors, I'm taking it to a smitty on Friday with a springs and rings kit. He will replace whatever is needed and also clean it up.

Plan on taking it out on the 9th assuming smitty signs off

Slugo · June 28, 2011, 12:18 PM

clean up what you can and have the g-smith check it out. Then go shoot the **** out of it, and have some fun!!

wncchester · June 28, 2011, 01:29 PM

It is a Md. 11. There were no fore runners, it was Remington's first auto shotgun and John Browning's first long gun deal outside Winchester - a mistake Winchester soon came to regret. The patents listed mean nothing really helpful, it was common in those days to list all of a company's patents that MIGHT apply. Savage later purchased production rights as well. Browning made an exclusive deal with FN of Belgium and that stated a long and happy run for both of them. Sadly, Europe priced their manufactoring out of reach for most American sportsman and Brownings are now made in Japan. The old "long recoil" operated auto loading shotguns have long been replaced by softer recoiling and cheaper to make gas operated rigs.

I have one my father purchased, used, about '46 from a disabled GI who had bought it new before WWII but would never be able to hunt again. It was lightly rusted, had no barrel rib and the plain grain stock was badly oil soaked. I took it in '69, had a Herter's rib installed, hot blued it myself, added a Herter's highly figured crotch walnut butt stock and forearm, then added a Pachmeyer recoil pad. My father loved it but died in '90 so it now sits in my gun safe. It's still a beautiful tool and as functional as it was when new; I love to use it in dove fields.

June 16, 2011, 10:12 AM	#1
Shopdog Junior Member Join Date: June 16, 2011 Location: SW WA Posts: 3	My New Shotgun - Pre model 11 Remington? Greetings Gentlemen (and ladies if present) I found this site while researching the age of my newly acquired shotgun. My stepfather passed away this past January and I recently went down to moms to help go through stuff. I ended up bringing back four rifles, which I intend to keep as family heirlooms. I know they are not worth much financially, but they have non tangible value that I appreciate. I'm interested in learning as much about these rifles as I can. Since this is my first post, I'll go ahead and tell you I've been around guns all my life. I learned proper gun handling and safety in my pre-teens at summer camp. I don't know what we fired exactly back then, but I do know it was a tube fed bolt action .22 of some sort. I've had a couple rifles over the years, and I've had a Beretta 92FS for about 20 years. I'm not a hunter nor an extremist, but I do support our rights and I enjoy taking out targets (though I haven't done it in a long time). So, to the point of this post... One of the guns is what I think is a Remington model 11 Autoloader. It Does not say Model 11 on it anywhere. I am only making this leap based on the research I've done so far. Reading here and a few other sites I think it might be a pre "Model 11" model 11... if that makes sense. I talked to Remington and he said "if it really is a Model 11", based on the serial number it was manufactured in 1912. He suggested I give the guys at Remingtonsociety.com a try, but I had already registered here, so here is where I shall start. So, I'm hoping you all might be able to help me narrow this down a bit more. Like I said, it does not say Model 11 anywhere. On the left side just in front of the receiver it says "pull". On the right side same spot, there is a mark but I can't tell what it is. The serial number 127593 is underneath by the trigger. On the left side of the barrel where it says Remington Union Metalworks (or something like that, I'm not at home at the moment), the youngest patent date on it is 1903. The safety is a little nub in front of the trigger. (sorry for my highly technical firearms jargon) So, what do ya'll think? I know 1912 is close, any thoughts on narrowing it down more? Also, as you can see from the pictures, all the blueing is gone. I don't think I'll bother trying to do a full restore, but I'd like to polish it up shiny. Any suggestions on how to clean it up? Finally, I've read not to use steel loads with this gun. While I'm familiar with proper gun handling and safety, the variety of ammunition out there I am not so familiar with. I do intend to have a smitty sign off on the guns soundness before I take it out, but I want to make sure I buy the right ammo so I don't screw it up. I'd only be looking to kill clay pigeons. Thanks and here are some pictures.... (sorry about how long this got)

June 16, 2011, 06:53 PM	#6
the rifleer Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2008 Location: Sunny California Posts: 1,281	I cleaned up a winchester shotgun recently that had rust like that. Just use some steel wool, It wont hurt the metal and it will take the rust right off. __________________ There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid people.

June 17, 2011, 11:03 AM	#10
the rifleer Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2008 Location: Sunny California Posts: 1,281	By using steel wool and wd-40 you are preserving it. You are removing the rust. Go ahead and use the steel wool, it will clan it up alot. __________________ There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid people.

June 16, 2011, 11:05 AM	#2
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	WD-40 or similar and 0000 steel wool will clean up the rust. Since you live the damp Pacific NW, you might consider some form of bluing to help stave off another rust attack - or keep it well oiled and dry You need to verify the chamber length. Low-pressure, shorter shells are available (if needed) from Polywad and RST

June 16, 2011, 03:35 PM	#3
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	IIRC, it was The Remington Autoloading Shotgun first, the 11 moniker was added later. I can't recall if these had short chambers or not. A smith can give you the answer as well as..... Deep cleaning the receiver for the first time in a century. Replacing the fiber buffer in the reciever. Replacing all the springs and friction pieces. And showing you how to set up the rings for light or heavy loads. Once that's done, go shoot it plenty. Also, in your shoes I'd lean more to conservation than restoration. Those marks add soul. Just clean it, lube it, cherish it.

June 16, 2011, 06:13 PM	#4
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	I am with DaveMcC on the conservation... Personally if I seen it only in a re-blued condition, I would think it was neat... If I looked at before and after pics I woulds say "tisk tisk tisk" under my breath and wonder how the owner could try to wash off the "character" of an obviously well worn (not obvious abuse) war horse of a gun... And keep in mind that no matter the age exactly... It is a fine OLD gun and when it rolled off the assembly line it was more than "state of the art" it was the fore runner to all things "auto loader shotgunning" to come. Brent

June 16, 2011, 06:22 PM	#5
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	I will have to 3rd the thought of leaving the natural character of this beauty alone. Cleaning elbow grease is the only thing I would use on her.

June 16, 2011, 08:26 PM	#7
30-30remchester Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2009 Location: mountains of colorado Posts: 977	First off it is a model 11. For some unknown reason Remington didnt asign model numbers to all their guns the first few years. I have had one such model 11 unmarked as well as a model 12 and model 8 without actual model numbers. As for restoring, I detest any alteration to an original firearm unless abused by neglect. This gun has real caractor. It has all the bumps and abrasions from a lifetime of use. When a gun like this is restored all you end up with is a shiny "new" old gun that has had its history forever removed.

June 17, 2011, 09:46 AM	#8
Shopdog Junior Member Join Date: June 16, 2011 Location: SW WA Posts: 3	thanks for the comments guys. to those that are against restoration - does that include the suggested WD-40 / 0000 steel wool, just to clean it up a bit? I wouldn't go any further than that, but it seems to make sense I try to get any surface rust off before laying down a nice lube, no? I'm taking it to a smitty next week and he will clean the internals, inspect, and make final judgment on its soundness. I'll be bringing a Browning A-5 factory rebuild kit with me so he can replace any springs or rings as needed. edit: oh yeah, I think I've finalized my research on age and have concluded 1912 to be the manufacture date. Pretty cool.

June 17, 2011, 10:00 AM	#9
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	I would, by all means, "keep it up" with all means... The steel wool job once and if you keep it up from then on, it will forever have the character it has and also what you add using it if you choose to. I would love to see that brought out at a local "turkey shoot" at the Hunt Club Hall... Brent

June 22, 2011, 02:51 PM	#11
Kestrel4k Member Join Date: March 29, 2011 Location: The Willamette Valley, in Oregon Posts: 97	A prior thread that helped me out on this one: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282998 One of these (SN 32,xxx) just resurfaced in my family last winter (in comparable condition except for lacking the fore-end). Please update this thread w/ your experiences if you get it back into shape, as I'd love to do the same with this one.

June 28, 2011, 11:40 AM	#12
Shopdog Junior Member Join Date: June 16, 2011 Location: SW WA Posts: 3	ya know, it was actually that thread that I found when doing my initial Google'ing... which led me to join here. All I plan on doing is a clean up of the exterior, which I will do myself. For the interiors, I'm taking it to a smitty on Friday with a springs and rings kit. He will replace whatever is needed and also clean it up. Plan on taking it out on the 9th assuming smitty signs off

June 28, 2011, 12:18 PM	#13
Slugo Junior member Join Date: September 15, 2001 Location: Central PA Posts: 1,007	clean up what you can and have the g-smith check it out. Then go shoot the **** out of it, and have some fun!!

June 28, 2011, 01:29 PM	#14
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	It is a Md. 11. There were no fore runners, it was Remington's first auto shotgun and John Browning's first long gun deal outside Winchester - a mistake Winchester soon came to regret. The patents listed mean nothing really helpful, it was common in those days to list all of a company's patents that MIGHT apply. Savage later purchased production rights as well. Browning made an exclusive deal with FN of Belgium and that stated a long and happy run for both of them. Sadly, Europe priced their manufactoring out of reach for most American sportsman and Brownings are now made in Japan. The old "long recoil" operated auto loading shotguns have long been replaced by softer recoiling and cheaper to make gas operated rigs. I have one my father purchased, used, about '46 from a disabled GI who had bought it new before WWII but would never be able to hunt again. It was lightly rusted, had no barrel rib and the plain grain stock was badly oil soaked. I took it in '69, had a Herter's rib installed, hot blued it myself, added a Herter's highly figured crotch walnut butt stock and forearm, then added a Pachmeyer recoil pad. My father loved it but died in '90 so it now sits in my gun safe. It's still a beautiful tool and as functional as it was when new; I love to use it in dove fields.