Pietta Cabella's 1851 Navy

[Rototiller]

I purchased this 4-3/4" length barrel model last year along with an Euroarms Rogers & Spencer from an estate state sale. These are my first BP firearms. The Rogers & Spencer was my favorite of the two because it was at least fairly accurate. But two weeks ago I purchased an 7-1/2" barrel on ebay for the Pietta 1851. I had forgotten about this forum so missed the wisdom when I installed it and the cylinder was locked up because the cone was hitting the cylinder so hard that I could not even fully install the wedge. I noticed the cone was not machined on the end like the shorter barrel so I started stoning it until I could get the wedge in and have about .001 clearance. YouTube videos suggested .004 to .006 clearance but the stock barrel had nearly .009 clearance. I was able to fire all six rounds with out a problem. Both the short and longer barrels shoot about 8" high. I'm going to break this into several post so I hope I get advise about each issue.

Question 1) On this forum in another thread it was mentioned that if you put the barrel on the cylinder post at an angle the barrel frame should be even with the main frame, if not shim the post. The short barrel fits this way but the longer barrel is about 1/16" below the main frame. If I shim the cylinder post then the short barrel will not work anymore so I would need to drop an shim in the post hole on the longer barrel or just leave it be?

Donald

[Rototiller]

Question 2) I tried to adjust the hammer sight per Duelist You Tube video but I can only get it down 2" on the long barrel, I can't see the front sight if I notch it anymore. The front sight on the long barrel is shorter then the short barrel's. From what I see I need to lengthen the front sight, maybe a dab or two of silver solder, or is the front sight replaceable and where do you buy one? I did not reshoot the short barrel after I adjusted the rear hammer sight.

Donald

[Rototiller]

Question 3) To combine the two issues, when I install the wedge the gap between the cone and cylinder gets tighter which means the barrel is tilting up. So if I was too file the wedge sides or place the shim(s) in the cylinder post hole this would lower the barrel front alignment, how much it would affect the accuracy I don't know.

Any Advises?

BTW I'm new to this forum.

Donald

[tatartot]

Well I addressed this in another post here.But I remove the stock
front sight & dove tail it & use a taller front sight.Doing it this way
not only lowers your groups but you can adjust for windage.

TT

[Hawg]

Question 3) To combine the two issues, when I install the wedge the gap between the cone and cylinder gets tighter which means the barrel is tilting up. So if I was too file the wedge sides or place the shim(s) in the cylinder post hole this would lower the barrel front alignment, how much it would affect the accuracy I don't know.

What you should really do is correct the length of the arbor so it is the same length as the arbor hole is deep. There's several ways to do it. You can put a blob of silver solder on the end of the arbor and file to fit or you can D&T for a set screw or you could just stuff the hole with leather or some other material. With the cylinder removed and the barrel assembly on the arbor but turned to one side the frame and barrel lug should match up without the barrel assembly going past flush. Once you achieve this the depth of the wedge won't affect cylinder gap.

[Rototiller]

Tatartot,

I have seen such a thread but this barrel does not have a dove tail sight and I'm not a machinist, besides I would like to keep it close to a true replica. Gunsmiths seem to be non-existent in my area. The closes dealer who had a gunsmith decided to shut down that part of their business. There is another part timer but he has had my AK for 6-months and I think I'm just going to get it back as he never has started on it.

Donald

[Rototiller]

Hawg,

The only problem with messing with the arbor(I was calling it a post) is then the original barrel will not fit, that's why I was thinking of putting the shims in the arbor hole in the barrel. The original barrel fits like your picture depicts but the new barrel is about 1/16" lower. D&T a set screw in the arbor hole sounds like a good ideal, just need to find machine shop that will do a little job or a gunsmith. I could find and ship the barrel to a shop without the FFL paperwork I'm guessing. I don't have the tools to do it in steel, aluminum or brass I would do it myself.

Donald

[swathdiver]

Not too long ago a tutorial was done on how to make a taller front sight out of a brass screw. I think it was over at percussionrevolvers or blackpowdertimes.

[Hellgate]

Here's a copy of an email I have sent multiple times whenever Colt Navy/Army sight adjustments come up:


I've had a plethoria of Navies. Here's what I have done on different guns:
--Ground the rear notch a little wider and deeper with a Dremel cutting disc. Makes a better sight picture.
--Ground the tip of the hammer off in order to "lower" the rear sight and then Dremeled the notch deeper & wider. Be careful that you don't grind off too much or the barrel will block the front sight as mentioned before. You can sight down the barrel and see what kind of clearance you have to start with. Some guns don't have any. A longer or shorter trigger may raise or lower the arc of the hammer and thus change the heigth of the hammer but I have not intentionally done that but noticed more hammer above the barrel line after swapping out a trigger for a shorter one once.
--Filed off the bead very flat and epoxied a taller shotgun bead onto it. You could also pull out the original bead and file the shank of the shotgun bead til it fits into the hole in the barrel and then use a speck of epoxy or hard Locktite to seat it permanently.
--Removed the front sight (lifted it out of the hole) and epoxied a cut off #4X3/4" brass flat head phillips wood screw (upside down). This fix made a nice tall bead/post that a little cold bluing "ages" nicely and it looks good if you don't goop too much epoxy onto the barrel. Cut, size, & shape the "bead" before you glue it on. The simplest fix I've found so far for Navies.
--Have a gunsmith dovetail a front sight but only if the gun shoots way off to one side (too far off to merely cut the rear notch over a little). If the front sight needs to be drifted way over to the side, you're gonna get the creeps looking at the sight picture. I carefully (as in gorilla) bent the barrel to the left on one gun to make it shoot to POA. Looks alot better than having a drifted sight hanging off the side of the barrel. A dovetail front sight is a likely sign that the gun doesn't shoot straight and is common on originals I've seen at gun shows.
You need to calculate the amount of correction needed before deciding whether a shotgun bead is enough or whether you need the shank of a brass bolt or inverted screw to gain heigth. With the #4 screw I got about .25" of bead and what I consider a pretty solid mount. The formula for sight correction that I use is this:
Correction (C) is to sight radius (S) as error (E) on the target is to the distance (D) to the target. All units in inches. i.e.
C/S=E/D solve for C C=SE/D
For example if the gun shoots 1 foot high at 25 yards you first measure the distance from the front sight to the rear sight. Let's say 10 inches (really around 10.5).
25 yards=12 (inches) X3 (per foot) X25 yards=900 inches. So, the total correction of either or both sight is:
C=10X12/900=.13 inch That means .13 inches of correction to what you already have on the gun.
So, you can take a little off the back or ad a little to the front or do a whole lot to one end to "adjust" the sights on that Navy.

[tatartot]

Well here is a fix from a form member here.http://4thla.com/articles/1860_sight/1860_sight.htm TT

[maillemaker]

That's my article for the 1860. The 1851 has a post front sight, as I recall.

So does my 1858. I'm getting ready to do a sight replacement on it, also, so I'll make a photo essay of it.

Steve

[Hellgate]

See my post #6 with image link at "Taller front sights for Cap & Ball" to see the simple to apply taller brass screw front sight. For some reason this site will not let me upload the image to this thread once I have posted it elsewhere. Dumb.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=500072

[swathdiver]

I've seen yours and it's great. I was thinking of the post type done on a Pietta Rogers and Spencer in the last few months.

[Rototiller]

Hellgate,

I still have not seen a clear statement about removing the stock front sight, is it just glued/expoxied in and you have to pull/drill it out? I just JB Weld an 1/8" tube over the stock sight, taped it so it looks straight and will try that before I do any damage.

Donald

[Rototiller]

Maillemaker,

I would like to see that set of pictures. I'm taking my BP revolvers to a shoot next weekend and I don't want to do anything dumb until afterwards.

Donald

[Rototiller]

To All:

Thanks for all the input, as of now I made a thick brass and two thin aluminum shims for the arbor hole to get it to fit like the original. The front sight I JB Welded a 1/8" brass tube to the front sight and epoxied the slot in the hammer. After I let it set for a day or so I will attempt to adjust the sights again. If it works I will epoxy the shims into the arbor hole so I don't have to keep track of them. I will probably do the brass screw thing to the front sight at a later date.

I have a Target Shoot and breakfast to go to Saturday and don't want to mess the BP revolvers up before.

Donald

[Rototiller]

Okay I was looking to see if I could buy a Rogers & Spencer front sight and see if I could adapt it, guess what Dixie Gun Works has replica Colt 1851 brass front sights for sale. Looks short like the one on the new barrel, actually the original barrel sight isn't much longer but has a finer point at the top. It looks like the sight is just press fit. The R&S sight is much taller.

Donald

[Hellgate]

Rototiller,
I just yanked the sight out with a pair of wire cutters. It is swaged into the hole in the top of the barrel. On another gun I carefully filed it flush with the barrel and hollowed out the phillips slots so the screw would set flush with the top of the barrel.

[Rototiller]

The pressure is off, when I went to church this morning the target shoot got swapped with a golf outing(not me) so the target shooting isn't until next month so I have more time to get the 1851 accurate.

Thanks again for every ones input.

Donald

[45 Dragoon]

If the short barrel fits, shim the arbor hole of the long barrel so you can use both.
You don't use a set screw in the arbor to set arbor depth. It's used as a bearing surface for the wedge.

[Hawg]

You don't use a set screw in the arbor to set arbor depth. It's used as a bearing surface for the wedge.

You can. I've seen it posted as a fix for a short arbor before. Never heard of anybody using one for a bearing surface for the wedge, don't really see why you would need one for that.

[45 Dragoon]

Hey Hawg,
Well, Im sure it could be done like that but I dont think it would hold up .Steel plug / washer is better. The use of the set screw for a bearing comes in handy because when the cylinder is short and you want the tolerances that Im after, the wedge holeends up swallowing much of the wedge. To tighten the space up, the set screw can be tightened and the wedge can basicly stay in one place regardless of the wear during the life of the gun. This is the technique that I use and I maintain a .002 or less gap.

[Hawg]

So basically you're using a set screw to force the barrel into a position to give you a tighter gap? I'd prefer a gap closer to .006 but most of mine come with a .003 gap.

[45 Dragoon]

You can look at it that way. The gap is defined by the arbor bottoming out in the barrel assy. I prefer that being a solid and perm. fix. When getting the tol. that I want, you have to "over compensate " , ending up with a longer than needed arbor (just by a little). Then by taking off material from the front of the arbor, you arive at the desired gap. This allows the wedge key hole to elongate some ( .001-.002 at the most). Thats enough to allow the wedge to go in much further than the "like new" position. So, I close the front bearing space down with a big set screw. Its the arbor /barrel rationship that makes up the intended gap. If you pound a wedge in my set up, you can't close the gap. In a stock gun you will lock it up. Some of the Peiettas I've worked on actually have a long arbor and don't need the spacer. I give everyone the ability to keep the wedge in the position they want.
I have many customers that have fired 60, 70, 80 shots (They all will) with no binding whatsoever. This is because of the .002-.0025 gap that I set. If "stuff" can't get out , it can't get between the arbor and cyl. and cause it to bind. The bigger the gap, the more the crap!
Another reason for the close tol. is it allows for more precise tuning. The moving forward of the cyl. changes the timing /geometry and precision . As in any fine tuned device a tolerance has to be maintained and the closer they are, the longer the device will last.

Most of the open tops I've seen dont really have a defined gap, you can close them down and lock up the cyl. If it's too loose, it will damage the wedge and the key hole ( with each shot). That's why I prefer a tight fitting wedge as well. You shouldn't have to break down the gun and clean it while at the range. Breaking it down should be done when you're finished.

[45 Dragoon]

My phone wont let me move down to edit so gotta do a new post.

Anyway, the last part of my post was about being able to lock down the cyls. of most new open tops by driving the wedge in too far and that a loose wedge will cause damage.