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Old June 18, 2018, 12:54 AM   #1
Model12Win
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London '51s?

Hi, gang! I've been wanting to get back into the cap n' ball game for a while now. They're just so cheap to shoot and a HOOT!!! Well I sold my '51 Uberti Navy a couple years back. Guys, I'll admit, shouldn't a done that. I've missed in since, and boy do I feel like a real boob for getting rid of it!!

There's something about the way they balance in the hand, the look, the feel, and I appreciate the .36 caliber. Light recoil yet good effectiveness. Just as Elmer Keith mentioned Confederate cavalrymen telling him, the .36 round ball did its job very well.

I've recently become aware of what's known as the "London model" Colt 1851 Navy. These were apparently made in Colt's London-based factory, about 42,000 were made and they were used by the British military in Crimea etc. and some found there way back to America to participate in our Civil War. They are differentiated from the standard U.S. made guns by using a blued steel grip frame and trigger guard over the usual brass ones.

I see that Uberti of Italy makes a reproduction, and I must say, it is a most handsome looking piece:



Looks VERY nice and I appreciate the blued steel furnishings. Looks more unique than the normal brass and in my eyes just really looks incredible. Does anyone out there own one and if so, what do you think of it? Going to probably pick one up in the very near future. I enjoyed my first Uberti (Cimarron imported) '51 and found the quality and finish to be outstanding.

Anyone want to share there thoughts on this model? Any input, knowledge or experience would be greatly appreciated!

-M12
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Old June 18, 2018, 08:56 AM   #2
Trum4n1208
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I bought an Uberti 1851 London, imported by Cimarron, from Buffalo Arms I think. This was back in 2015. I had to adjust the arbor fit (Uberti drills the arbor hole too deep on their Colt style guns. I made my adjustment using JB Weld and steel washers). I also swapped out the nipples with Slix-shot nipples. The arbor adjustment needs to happen, the nipples just make your life bit easier. It's a GREAT gun. It's handsome, it handles beautifully, and it's a real tack driver: I'm the weak link when it comes to this gun's accuracy.

I highly recommend them.
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Old June 18, 2018, 09:34 AM   #3
Model12Win
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trum4n1208 View Post
I bought an Uberti 1851 London, imported by Cimarron, from Buffalo Arms I think. This was back in 2015. I had to adjust the arbor fit (Uberti drills the arbor hole too deep on their Colt style guns. I made my adjustment using JB Weld and steel washers). I also swapped out the nipples with Slix-shot nipples. The arbor adjustment needs to happen, the nipples just make your life bit easier. It's a GREAT gun. It's handsome, it handles beautifully, and it's a real tack driver: I'm the weak link when it comes to this gun's accuracy.

I highly recommend them.
Very cool! What caps do you use with the Slix-shot nipples? Also, can you explain why the arbor should be fixed? I've read Ubertis don't have the right arbor specs or something but never understood really what that means...
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Old June 18, 2018, 09:55 AM   #4
Trum4n1208
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I've been using Remington No. 10 caps with the slix shot nipples, and they've worked like a charm. Great ignition and I haven't had any cap jams (on that note, use a stone and smooth your hammer face. This'll also help reduce/eliminate cap jams. I think Mike Beliveau made a video about this called 'the cure for cap sucking' or something like that).

As for the arbor fit, I'm not confident in my ability to explain it well, so I'm going to cite Larson E. Pettifogger's awesome Uberti tuning tutorials (I'll post a link below).

Quote:
However, a smooth action is useless if the cylinder binds and the gun is difficult or impossible to cock. This difficulty comes primarily from the cylinder gap closing because the wedge is going to far into the barrel, or powder fouling building up on the face of the cylinder (especially with black powder). The reason this occurs with Ubertis is because almost every Uberti open top has a poorly fitted arbor. In almost every case, the arbor is too short. Since the arbor is too short, as the wedge is pushed into the barrel it tilts the barrel backwards and it binds on the cylinder or reduces the cylinder gap to the point that powder fouling makes the cylinder hard to turn.
That's from Part 3 of his tutorials (all parts here: http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/in...p?topic=7988.0 )

Like I said, I used a poor man's method on my Uberti. I used Steel Washers until I almost had the right barrel-cylinder gap, and then JB Welded the washers together, and then JB welded the washers to the back of the arbor hole, for use as a spacer. I then hand-sanded the arbor until I had the right barrel-cylinder gap.

Keep in mind that my fix was very much a poor man's solution. I have no doubt in my mind that there are better fixes out there. I don't compete, so what I did has worked for my needs so far.

Last edited by Trum4n1208; June 20, 2018 at 09:41 AM.
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Old June 18, 2018, 09:57 AM   #5
Oliver Sudden
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If the arbor doesn’t fit the barrel correctly then the wedge is positioning the barrel and controling the barrel cylinder gap. The arbor should bottom out in the hole in the barrel with the lower part of the barrel being even with the frame. To check this remove the cylinder and place the barrel on the arbor at a 90* angle. Then gently turn it till it touches the frame. Note the amount of miss match and that will be how much correction is needed. Concider too that the barrel should move with out any significant binding as that could mean that the hole or the arbor has a burr or taper.
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Old June 18, 2018, 12:36 PM   #6
Hawg
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Quote:
To check this remove the cylinder and place the barrel on the arbor at a 90* angle. Then gently turn it till it touches the frame. Note the amount of miss match and that will be how much correction is needed. Concider too that the barrel should move with out any significant binding as that could mean that the hole or the arbor has a burr or taper.
That doesn't work with newer Ubertis, not sure about the older ones. I did that with my dragoon made in 2013 and it was a perfect fit doing it that way but drive the wedge in too deep and it bound the cylinder against the forcing cone. If the arbor length is correct you can drive the wedge in as deep as you want and it won't change cylinder gap. 45dragoon can explain better than I can why that method doesn't work with Ubertis. It does work with Piettas tho.
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Old June 19, 2018, 05:30 PM   #7
45 Dragoon
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Hawg is correct. That method doesn't work as the arbors are "keyed" to the arbor hole. Meaning, they can't be fully seated unless they have correct alignment.

Mike
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Old June 19, 2018, 05:44 PM   #8
bedbugbilly
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I have sot '51s for 55 years. My current one is a Ubeerti and I love it.

As fra as the "London" - the only difference is the backstop and trigger guard as you state. The main part of the revolver is the same as their standard '51. On mine, I honed the wedge, and went over the wedge slot in the arbor ti insure that thee ar no burrs. I have no issues with mine and can easily assemble and disassemble with thumb pressure on the wedge which is the way it should be.

I own four Ubertis. I just picked up a '51 Richards & Mason conversion (38 special) last week. It is a beautiful handgun, great fit and finish as are all of mine. The action is crisp and clean, great trigger pull and while some like to "tune up" their revolvers, I have never found the need to with any of my Ubertis.

If you are going to order a London, shop around to get the best price. My LGS is always below MSRP but not all are that way. I don't think you would be disappointed with a London Model - a great historic revovlver.
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Old June 19, 2018, 06:20 PM   #9
Model12Win
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I found a photograph of an exquisite condition original London Colt:



The finish is quite close to the Ubertis!
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Old June 19, 2018, 09:26 PM   #10
45 Dragoon
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First off, Colts own instructions call for the wedge to be "driven in" and "driven out" which is more than thumb pressure. "Thumb pressure" can't and won't apply a suitable tension to join the two assemblies to function as designed. Just because those that shoot these pattern revolvers with light loads can get by with "thumb pressure" doesn't change the fact that that isn't the way they are designed to be assembled. This is how wrong "information" becomes "fact". It isn't.

Many competitors load " off the gun" (with a special loader) so that is probably how they are to be loaded as well.

So, with factory Uberti's, a driven in wedge would lock up the cylinder. Apparently some folks don't care and that's OK. The problem is, they aren't shooting a Colt copy because a true copy would be set up to function as the original was. Therefore, "whatever works" becomes "the way it should be". It's not. Until the arbor length is fixed, the actual barrel/cylinder clearance (when assembled correctly) is a big ol zero (actually, locked up!). A fixed arbor can allow the clearance to be set to .0025"-.003" which works very well to increase efficiency (more fouling/gas down the barrel and less out the bbl/cyl clearance). A nice by product is the ability to have the same revolver every time you reassemble it . . . even from shot to shot!!

As far as the "need" for tuning, it is dependent upon what one expects from the particular revolver. At best, high volume factory revolvers are "functional" with a certain number that are destined to fail early just because of the quality of the factory setup coupled with tolerances stacked against an action having a long life.

Tuning corrects the factory "problems" and should enhance the mechanical life of the parts and the revolver as a whole. The ease of use or "handling" of the revolver will also be something one can expect from having a S.A. tuned. In fact, most folks are really after the "handling" aspect of tuning moreso than the extended life of the parts (or at least that's what it seems like to me!!).
So, unless you haven't experienced say an AMG from Mercedes and are content with a Toyota Camry (no offense to Toyota owners), then a Camry may be all you think you need. Of course, if you do experience an AMG, you may notice some difference!! It's the same with revolvers as well. A "run of the mill" revolver won't come close to a truly tuned revolver . . . of any make.

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Last edited by 45 Dragoon; June 19, 2018 at 10:19 PM.
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Old June 19, 2018, 10:31 PM   #11
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If Im not mistaken, ALL Ubertis suffer from the short wedge problem?

Catch is, if you want a current production London model (and they really ARE beautiful guns!) then the Uberti is gonna be your only choice..

Goon can fix it right up though if youre not set up for it... As for ME, Im slowly learning gunsmithing on my own. Turns out I would have probably been better off to take up drinking turpentine and peeing on brush fires as a hobby, then gunsmithing LoL. Yeah, if ya dont already know how to do it, just send it to Goon..
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Old June 20, 2018, 12:22 AM   #12
Hawg
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Quote:
If Im not mistaken, ALL Ubertis suffer from the short wedge problem?
They do. It would be easy to correct at the factory and I don't know why Uberti wont do it. Pietta does and sells their guns cheaper than Uberti. The only gripes I have against Pietta is their name and black powder only stamped on the side of the barrel and those ridiculously fat grips.
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Old June 20, 2018, 09:03 AM   #13
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Hawg, yeah I meant arbor of course..and yup agree 100% about fixing it at the factory. For now my only colts are Piettas (except the busted ASM), and it looks to stay that way awhile. Wish I had gotten my remmis from Uberti though... oh well live and learn. The older Pietta grips dont seem as bad, but had to shave down my 2015 remmi grips a LOT, and they still aint quite right. My theory about the billboard is that they put that stuff on there so that youll always be able to spot your gun.. from space LoL!
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Old June 20, 2018, 12:11 PM   #14
Hawg
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Quote:
Hawg, yeah I meant arbor of course..
I saw wedge and read arbor lol. I have a navy from 1976 and it has nice slender grips.
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Old June 20, 2018, 03:19 PM   #15
Mk VII
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1st Generation London, #15154
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Old June 20, 2018, 06:53 PM   #16
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C'mon Hawg. You know full well that Pietta has not produced your dreaded fat "tail" grip profile since after 2014.

Just give it up. Some us like it and it actually is a collector item with repro folks. The newer Pietta grip profile is much smaller but that does not mean it is a Colt 1851 original style or even similar. Look it up. You have been around the block more than once, and I appreciate your input all around.

I am not trying to kick your butt but there are other ways at looking at things.

Sorry if this offends.

Jim
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Old June 20, 2018, 07:30 PM   #17
Jbar4Ranch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trum4n1208
Like I said, I used a poor man's method on my Uberti. I used Steel Washers until I almost had the right barrel-cylinder gap, and then JB Welded the washers together, and then JB welded the washers to the back of the arbor hole, for use as a spacer. I then hand-sanded the arbor until I had the right barrel-cylinder gap.

Keep in mind that my fix was very much a poor man's solution. I have no doubt in my mind that there are better fixes out there. I don't compete, so what I did has worked for my needs so far.
Not really, that's pretty much how everyone does it. I make the adjustment entirely with a washer shim turned to size, then pushed back and forth on a file a little at a time with my thumb til it's the right thickness, then a dab of JB Weld, assemble the revolver, and let it sit overnight.

In .36 cal, I've got a Uberti 1851, three Uberti Griswold & Gunnison 1851 copies, plus an ASM 1861 that had the same arbor fit problem, but I've been looking strongly at getting a couple of London models too - I've got enough Scheel's reward cards for one, but I'll have to pay for the other one... or wait another year to build up more rewards cards.
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