The .45 "Long" Colt........ - Page 4

BlueTrain · August 4, 2012, 04:06 PM

The .45 Mauser is a new one on me. What was that chambered in?

I also note that the .44 Colt and the .44 Remington, which look suspiciously similiar, have almost no rim or flange, as the British used to say, at all.

I have also noted that a few cartridges, all for rifles that I've noticed, have a distinct bevel, resulting in a base that is not exactly flat but tapers slightly to a thinner rim. It isn't much but very noticeable. Of all the cartridges I just rummaged through, however, only the 7.64x54r is like that. I wonder why?

Bob Wright · August 4, 2012, 05:57 PM

The .45 Mauser, from what I can find, was also known as the 11mm Mauser, as was used in at least one Mauser "zig-zag" revovler.

As to the Colt, and Remington, cartridges, they didn't need a rim for extraction, as they were rod ejectors. This prevented their use in S&W revovlers.

Beveled rims helped cam the cartridge as sliding (falling) breech blocks were closed on the rounds. Prevented the breech block from catching on the rim.

Bob Wright

Bob Wright · August 4, 2012, 05:58 PM

As to battery cup primers, I believe I have one .450 Revolver round so made, I'll check.

Bob Wright

**Mike Irwin** · August 4, 2012, 06:10 PM

The bevel base was also known as the Mauser A Base. It was used primarily in European cartridges.

Bob Wright · August 4, 2012, 06:32 PM

O.K. Here's what I found for the .450:

My specimen is made by Eley, a commercial mfg. White and Munhall list the .450 Revovler service ammunition as the Mk.I having an iron base, the Mk. II as having a brass base.

The same source quotes a box label for the .45 Mauser as "For .45 Mauser Pistol"

Bob Wright

carprivershooter · August 4, 2012, 08:10 PM

About the history of the 45colt or the 45 long colt. I call it a long colt so I don't confuse it with my 45acp. I load my 45 long colts bullets into my colt 45 one at a time. I load my 45 acp eight at a time throught the use of a clip or magazine.

wileybelch · August 5, 2012, 04:17 AM

Ever since I stopped wearing my birthday suit, I was told that 'clip' referred to a device open on both ends while 'magazine' referred to devices closed on one end. Thus, you can't load a M1911 with a 'clip'. Is there anymore to say on this...?

**Mike Irwin** · August 5, 2012, 07:11 AM

Ok we just had a very long thread on clip v magazine. Lets not take this thread off topic.

10-96 · August 5, 2012, 06:01 PM

Quote:

My specimen is made by Eley, a commercial mfg. White and Munhall list the .450 Revovler service ammunition as the Mk.I having an iron base, the Mk. II as having a brass base.

Iron base? Do you have a means of posting a photo of that critter? Man, that sounds interesting, is it a brass body (sleeve) pressed over the iron base?

SIGSHR · August 5, 2012, 06:41 PM

Popular terminology vs "Official" or factory designation. The "Official" designation for the round we call the 30-40 Krag was .30 U.S., .30 Army or .30 Government and the rifle that chambered it was "officially" designated the U.S. Magazine Rifle, Model of 1892 (or 1896 or 1898). The U.S. Semiautomatic Rifle M-1 (to use its original designation)-the name "Garand" appears nowhere on it and as a government employee Garand wasn't even entitled to patent rights, but every knows what a Garand is.

Bob Wright · August 5, 2012, 08:39 PM

I

Quote:

ron base? Do you have a means of posting a photo of that critter? Man, that sounds interesting, is it a brass body (sleeve) pressed over the iron base?

I'll try to get a photo of the illustration, my specimen won't show the detail. Picture this: A brass case with no rim and an small diameter opening at the bottom. The rim, iron or brass, is a separate washer. The primer cup is flanged, holds the primer, and acts like a rivet, inserted through a hole in the rim and through the bottom of the case. The primer cup holds the case and rim together.

I'll try to get a photo.

Bob Wright

Bob Wright · August 5, 2012, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Popular terminology vs "Official" or factory designation. The "Official" designation for the round we call the 30-40 Krag was .30 U.S., .30 Army or .30 Government and the rifle that chambered it was "officially" designated the U.S. Magazine Rifle, Model of 1892 (or 1896 or 1898). The U.S. Semiautomatic Rifle M-1 (to use its original designation)-the name "Garand" appears nowhere on it and as a government employee Garand wasn't even entitled to patent rights, but every knows what a Garand is.

I've been criticized for saying our troops in WW II and in Korea did not use .30-06 ammunition, as that is the commercial designation, and .30 M1906 cartridges were obsolete prior to WW II. We were issued .30 M2 AP ammunition in Korea.

Nor was it ball ammunition. In my short service carreer, ball ammunition was issued only in the Continental United States, and was used for training or guard duty only. The steel, later tungsten, cored bullet, clad in a gilding metal jacket, was overseas issue.

Bob Wright

10-96 · August 5, 2012, 09:30 PM

Quote:

The primer cup is flanged, holds the primer, and acts like a rivet, inserted through a hole in the rim and through the bottom of the case. The primer cup holds the case and rim together.

So not too different than say, a 209 shotshell primer? I could see that looking sorta rivetish. Sure am glad things improved for the better over the years.

Bob Wright · August 5, 2012, 09:43 PM

Quote:

So not too different than say, a 209 shotshell primer? I could see that looking sorta rivetish. Sure am glad things improved for the better over the years.

Exactly! Shotshells use the battery cup primer, except they don't hold the rim on.

Bob Wright

**Mike Irwin** · August 6, 2012, 07:05 AM

I can still find absolutely no indication that that kind of cartridge construction was ever used for handgun rounds in Britain.

It must have been for a VERY short period of time.

Bob Wright · August 6, 2012, 10:05 AM

Mike,

Here is a drawing of the .450 round from White & Munhall's work:

According to the text, "The British service cartridges of this caliber were always of the Boxer construction that had been patented in England in 1867."

They also state that this cartridge was in use from 1867 until about 1882. And under "Cartridge Types":

"Both British official types previously mentioned were made commercially." As I said, my specimen is commercial, brass based, and H/S "Eley." It is possible to feel a little "wiggle" when jiggling the rim.

Bob Wright

**Mike Irwin** · August 6, 2012, 10:34 AM

Interesting.

I've found some pictures on the web that showing the head on .450 cartrdiges. Several of them obviously have an iron (or non-brass) rim and a cupped primer.

Ztek69 · August 22, 2012, 10:11 AM

When I see a head stamp that says 45 LONG COLT or 45 SHORT COLT, I will acknowledge its existence....Until then, it's just 45 COLT. I've been shooting for 47 years and hand-loading for 21, that's gotta count for something.

**Mike Irwin** · August 22, 2012, 10:20 AM

Well, don't let the people who introduced this round to the world confuse you, then...

BlueTrain · August 22, 2012, 10:29 AM

I'm not sure the headstamping is proof positive of anything, although I will assume it to be accurate as far as it goes. Military ammunition is generally rather vague in that respect, as far as civilian or non-military terminology is concerned. As an example (and my only example), I have a few loaded cartridges that are marked ".38 Long." It also has the maker's name but .38 Long is all it says regarding what it is. I suppose I could safely assume it is a .38 Long Colt but that's not how it's marked.

It might be an early example of how cartridges become generic in name. It's really the .38 S&W Special, not just .38 Special and .40 Smith & Wesson, not .40 Auto, but I doubt many people get confused. At least no one argues the point about them.

So then, how were the very first army issue .45 revolver cartridges marked?

**Mike Irwin** · August 22, 2012, 11:07 AM

"So then, how were the very first army issue .45 revolver cartridges marked?"

Heheheheheh...

I'm VERY glad that you asked that...

They were NOT marked/headstamped.

They were loaded into internally primed copper cases that were unheadstamped.

The packages were, however, marked similarly to this...

So, I would have to say that, based on the markings above, the REAL name for this cartridge isn't .45 Long Colt, or even .45 Colt, it's Revolver Ball Cartridge, .45 Caliber"

rclark · August 22, 2012, 11:52 AM

You guys are just complicating the matter. It was designed as the .45 Colt from day 1. Period. It was called the .45 Long Colt for a period of time due to 'lots' of confusion during the early years. We all know the history (or bits and pieces of it). But today, there is no absolutely NO confusion as there is only in production the .45 Colt, .45 Schofield (limited to a few customers), .45 Auto Rim (even more limited), and the ever popular .45 ACP. I think there is now a 'Cowboy' out there too for the CAS crowd. Really simple enough even for me to keep track of.... And yet some still call the .45 Colt the .45 Long Colt for some reason .... even when they 'know' better. I suppose there will still be someone calling the .45 Colt by it's alias in another 100 years.... just because, by golly, he/she can

.

So is it wrong to call it the Long Colt? Technically yes as there never was an official specification for the Long Colt (The .45 Casull is the closest I think to a long colt) . But from a historical point of view, it was for awhile called the Long Colt out of necessity ... So yes... and no .... but some still like to roll of the tongue that they shoot the .45 Looooong Colt.....

tipoc · August 22, 2012, 11:55 AM

Very good thread.

tipoc

BlueTrain · August 22, 2012, 12:17 PM

Well, obviously not everyone called it that and several other cartridges, the .30-40 Krag did not get called that until later. I wonder what the soldiers there were issued .45 Colt cartridges called them? If they originally called it the .45 Long Colt, I don't see how it could have become incorrect later, though that sort of thing does happen.

Sometimes incorrect names get carried over from an earlier name and also, designations sometimes are applied much later on to something that never officially carried that name to begin with. Collectors are prone to doing that sort of thing, although it does help sometimes. For instance, the first "field jacket" issued to the army in 1941 was called simply a "field jacket." It wasn't a Model 1941, though it was sometimes called a Parsons jacket. The garment that replaced it was officially a "coat" but ever since then, everyone has called it a "field jacket." In fact, the term gained enough currency for the British to rename their DPM smock a "field jacket," which is so marked on the label.

In like manner, you may notice that even then the term "ball" cartridge was already in use, though obviously the bullet was not a ball but a conical "bullet" shape, which you may also notice already had a flat point that .45 Colt bullet retains to this day.

And did you ever notice how cartridges from that period tended to come in very small packages?

Malamute · August 23, 2012, 03:06 PM

I believe the "solid head" designation used on earlier American made cartridges was to differentiate them from the folded head cartridges, such as the early inside primed military cartridges were (made the same way rimfire cases are made). Today we call those early "solid head" cases "balloon head" and later cases solid head.

As to clips and magazines, the Shooters Bibles from the early 60's have many manufacturers using the term clip for their magazines.

Very interesting thread.

August 4, 2012, 04:06 PM	#76
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	The .45 Mauser is a new one on me. What was that chambered in? I also note that the .44 Colt and the .44 Remington, which look suspiciously similiar, have almost no rim or flange, as the British used to say, at all. I have also noted that a few cartridges, all for rifles that I've noticed, have a distinct bevel, resulting in a base that is not exactly flat but tapers slightly to a thinner rim. It isn't much but very noticeable. Of all the cartridges I just rummaged through, however, only the 7.64x54r is like that. I wonder why? __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

August 4, 2012, 06:10 PM	#79
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	The bevel base was also known as the Mauser A Base. It was used primarily in European cartridges. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 4, 2012, 08:10 PM	#81
carprivershooter Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2008 Location: Michigan, Upper Pennsula Posts: 396	I know nothing About the history of the 45colt or the 45 long colt. I call it a long colt so I don't confuse it with my 45acp. I load my 45 long colts bullets into my colt 45 one at a time. I load my 45 acp eight at a time throught the use of a clip or magazine. __________________ CarpriverShOOter Finch, I don't like guns. Reese, Me either but if someone has to have guns I'd rather it be me. (Person of Interest). No trees were destroyed in the posting of the this message

August 5, 2012, 04:17 AM	#82
wileybelch Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Posts: 115	clip vs magazine Ever since I stopped wearing my birthday suit, I was told that 'clip' referred to a device open on both ends while 'magazine' referred to devices closed on one end. Thus, you can't load a M1911 with a 'clip'. Is there anymore to say on this...?

August 5, 2012, 07:11 AM	#83
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Ok we just had a very long thread on clip v magazine. Lets not take this thread off topic. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 4, 2012, 05:57 PM	#77
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	The .45 Mauser, from what I can find, was also known as the 11mm Mauser, as was used in at least one Mauser "zig-zag" revovler. As to the Colt, and Remington, cartridges, they didn't need a rim for extraction, as they were rod ejectors. This prevented their use in S&W revovlers. Beveled rims helped cam the cartridge as sliding (falling) breech blocks were closed on the rounds. Prevented the breech block from catching on the rim. Bob Wright

August 4, 2012, 05:58 PM	#78
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	As to battery cup primers, I believe I have one .450 Revolver round so made, I'll check. Bob Wright

August 4, 2012, 06:32 PM	#80
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	O.K. Here's what I found for the .450: My specimen is made by Eley, a commercial mfg. White and Munhall list the .450 Revovler service ammunition as the Mk.I having an iron base, the Mk. II as having a brass base. The same source quotes a box label for the .45 Mauser as "For .45 Mauser Pistol" Bob Wright

August 5, 2012, 06:41 PM	#85
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	Popular terminology vs "Official" or factory designation. The "Official" designation for the round we call the 30-40 Krag was .30 U.S., .30 Army or .30 Government and the rifle that chambered it was "officially" designated the U.S. Magazine Rifle, Model of 1892 (or 1896 or 1898). The U.S. Semiautomatic Rifle M-1 (to use its original designation)-the name "Garand" appears nowhere on it and as a government employee Garand wasn't even entitled to patent rights, but every knows what a Garand is.

August 6, 2012, 07:05 AM	#90
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	I can still find absolutely no indication that that kind of cartridge construction was ever used for handgun rounds in Britain. It must have been for a VERY short period of time. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 6, 2012, 10:05 AM	#91
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	Mike, Here is a drawing of the .450 round from White & Munhall's work: According to the text, "The British service cartridges of this caliber were always of the Boxer construction that had been patented in England in 1867." They also state that this cartridge was in use from 1867 until about 1882. And under "Cartridge Types": "Both British official types previously mentioned were made commercially." As I said, my specimen is commercial, brass based, and H/S "Eley." It is possible to feel a little "wiggle" when jiggling the rim. Bob Wright

August 6, 2012, 10:34 AM	#92
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Interesting. I've found some pictures on the web that showing the head on .450 cartrdiges. Several of them obviously have an iron (or non-brass) rim and a cupped primer. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 22, 2012, 10:11 AM	#93
Ztek69 Junior Member Join Date: June 19, 2011 Location: Dandridge TN Posts: 6	Non existant round When I see a head stamp that says 45 LONG COLT or 45 SHORT COLT, I will acknowledge its existence....Until then, it's just 45 COLT. I've been shooting for 47 years and hand-loading for 21, that's gotta count for something.

August 22, 2012, 10:20 AM	#94
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Well, don't let the people who introduced this round to the world confuse you, then... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. Last edited by Mike Irwin; August 22, 2012 at 10:25 AM.

August 22, 2012, 10:29 AM	#95
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	I'm not sure the headstamping is proof positive of anything, although I will assume it to be accurate as far as it goes. Military ammunition is generally rather vague in that respect, as far as civilian or non-military terminology is concerned. As an example (and my only example), I have a few loaded cartridges that are marked ".38 Long." It also has the maker's name but .38 Long is all it says regarding what it is. I suppose I could safely assume it is a .38 Long Colt but that's not how it's marked. It might be an early example of how cartridges become generic in name. It's really the .38 S&W Special, not just .38 Special and .40 Smith & Wesson, not .40 Auto, but I doubt many people get confused. At least no one argues the point about them. So then, how were the very first army issue .45 revolver cartridges marked? __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

August 22, 2012, 11:07 AM	#96
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	"So then, how were the very first army issue .45 revolver cartridges marked?" Heheheheheh... I'm VERY glad that you asked that... They were NOT marked/headstamped. They were loaded into internally primed copper cases that were unheadstamped. The packages were, however, marked similarly to this... So, I would have to say that, based on the markings above, the REAL name for this cartridge isn't .45 Long Colt, or even .45 Colt, it's Revolver Ball Cartridge, .45 Caliber" __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 22, 2012, 11:52 AM	#97
rclark Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2009 Location: Butte, MT Posts: 2,619	You guys are just complicating the matter. It was designed as the .45 Colt from day 1. Period. It was called the .45 Long Colt for a period of time due to 'lots' of confusion during the early years. We all know the history (or bits and pieces of it). But today, there is no absolutely NO confusion as there is only in production the .45 Colt, .45 Schofield (limited to a few customers), .45 Auto Rim (even more limited), and the ever popular .45 ACP. I think there is now a 'Cowboy' out there too for the CAS crowd. Really simple enough even for me to keep track of.... And yet some still call the .45 Colt the .45 Long Colt for some reason .... even when they 'know' better. I suppose there will still be someone calling the .45 Colt by it's alias in another 100 years.... just because, by golly, he/she can . So is it wrong to call it the Long Colt? Technically yes as there never was an official specification for the Long Colt (The .45 Casull is the closest I think to a long colt) . But from a historical point of view, it was for awhile called the Long Colt out of necessity ... So yes... and no .... but some still like to roll of the tongue that they shoot the .45 Looooong Colt..... __________________ A clinger and deplorable, MAGA, and life NRA member. When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Single Action .45 Colt (Sometimes colloquially referred to by its alias as the .45 'Long' Colt or .45LC). Don't leave home without it. That said, the .44Spec is right up their too... but the .45 Colt is still the king. Last edited by rclark; August 22, 2012 at 12:13 PM.

August 22, 2012, 11:55 AM	#98
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	Very good thread. tipoc

August 22, 2012, 12:17 PM	#99
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	Well, obviously not everyone called it that and several other cartridges, the .30-40 Krag did not get called that until later. I wonder what the soldiers there were issued .45 Colt cartridges called them? If they originally called it the .45 Long Colt, I don't see how it could have become incorrect later, though that sort of thing does happen. Sometimes incorrect names get carried over from an earlier name and also, designations sometimes are applied much later on to something that never officially carried that name to begin with. Collectors are prone to doing that sort of thing, although it does help sometimes. For instance, the first "field jacket" issued to the army in 1941 was called simply a "field jacket." It wasn't a Model 1941, though it was sometimes called a Parsons jacket. The garment that replaced it was officially a "coat" but ever since then, everyone has called it a "field jacket." In fact, the term gained enough currency for the British to rename their DPM smock a "field jacket," which is so marked on the label. In like manner, you may notice that even then the term "ball" cartridge was already in use, though obviously the bullet was not a ball but a conical "bullet" shape, which you may also notice already had a flat point that .45 Colt bullet retains to this day. And did you ever notice how cartridges from that period tended to come in very small packages? __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

August 23, 2012, 03:06 PM	#100
Malamute Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2004 Location: Rocky Mts Posts: 859	I believe the "solid head" designation used on earlier American made cartridges was to differentiate them from the folded head cartridges, such as the early inside primed military cartridges were (made the same way rimfire cases are made). Today we call those early "solid head" cases "balloon head" and later cases solid head. As to clips and magazines, the Shooters Bibles from the early 60's have many manufacturers using the term clip for their magazines. Very interesting thread. __________________ "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt- Last edited by Malamute; August 23, 2012 at 03:13 PM.