Break top revolvers: What is the most powerful variant?

[Kimio]

Admittedly, I know very little about revolver cartridges. Reading around, the break top design limited designers of the time to how powerful a cartridge they could make for the guns for a number of reasons.

If I recall correctly, problems with being able to safely lock up the cylinder as well as the limitations of case length as well as other things contributed to the decline of this style of revolver, especially when the swing out cylinder design came to be. (If I'm wrong, someone please correct me)

That being said, I always found these types of revolvers fascinating, and I am curious as to what is the most powerful in terms of cartridge variant of this design and if there is a company such as Taylor or Uberti that makes reproductions of them.

I believe the Russians had a prototype break top revolver they were developing for export in .357 magnum, but I believe it never was put into full scale production. Though, of course, I may (likely am?) be wrong.

[BillM]

The Russian 357 was the MP 412 REX. Never put into production.
Uberti makes a couple--in 45 Colt and 44-40.

More complex to manufacture than swing out revolvers, and therefore
more expensive. If somebody would do the big Webley with modern
steel, in a 45 ACP that takes full moonclips--and they did it at a decent price I
would order one today.

[DaleA]

I thought a top break revolver would be neat to have too, especially after seeing the Clint Eastwood movie "Unforgiven" with the "Schofield Kid".

Reading further on this forum kind of cooled my enthusiasm. Here's some of the threads that did it.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...ight=schofield

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...ight=schofield

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...hofield&page=2

Still, the regular old Colt .45 load was adequate for years and years for cowboys, law enforcement and military so....a top break in .45 Colt seems like it would be powerful enough and of course (IMhO) cool.

[T. O'Heir]

"...to how powerful a cartridge..." BP cartridges were limited due to the fact that the only way to make one more powerful was to increase the bullet weight by increasing the diameter. Gets to a point of diminishing returns. If the cartridge got really big, so did the revolver.

[Driftwood Johnson]

BP cartridges were limited due to the fact that the only way to make one more powerful was to increase the bullet weight by increasing the diameter. Gets to a point of diminishing returns. If the cartridge got really big, so did the revolver.

Not quite. The way you make a Black Powder cartridge more powerful is by increasing the powder capacity of the case. Case in point, the 45 Colt and 45 Schofield cartridges. Same bullet and case diameter, but the 45 Colt could hold around 40 grains of Black Powder and the 45 Schofield only held around 28 grains if I remember correctly.

Or the 45-70, 45-110, 45-120 family. Same bullet diameter same case diameter, but increasing case length and case capacity.

Yes, in these examples different bullet weights could affect the stopping power of the cartridge, but the bottom line is more powder made for more velocity.

Still, it does get to diminishing returns for a revolver, pretty much anything longer than the 45 Colt starts to get impractical to chamber in a revolver cylinder.

[James K]

Breaktops are limited for reasons other than the power (pressure) of the cartridge. The extraction of a top-break becomes more problematical as the cartridge increases in length. A .357 might be made and work, but I think that would be the limit and might even require some sort of sleeved extractor.

But the main problem with powerful cartridges in a breaktop is the breaktop mechanism itself. In order to work, the frame has to be in two pieces. And no matter how strong you make the latch, the joint will always be a weak point, with the strain of firing trying to pull the joint apart. No matter how small a gap is allowed, there has to be a gap, and that gap will increase as the gun is fired. That will happen even with weak cartridges (.455 Webley, for example), but the damage will occur over a long enough time that the service period is acceptable. But if the cartridge is more powerful, the latch will fail sooner, and the service period will be so short as to be unacceptable.

Jim

[4V50 Gary]

Kenneth Hower's .357 Maximum. Inspired by the Lemat, it was custom made, one of a kind 9 shot with a 20 ga (rifled) barrel. I saw it during summer school when Ken was taking a class at TSJC. It was displayed at the Mitchell Museum in Trinidad, CO during its Art of the Gun exhibit. Last time I saw it was displayed at the Whittington Center Museum.

[Model12Win]

The MP412 REX is a vaporware gun.

For some reason, it's starred in lots and lots of video games but this gun was never put into production, much less imported to the US.

The most powerful break top that I know of, and is still practical, is the .455 Webley.

[44 AMP]

The modern "replica" Break Top guns that are "stretched" to take the .45 Colt (standard loading ONLY, NO HEAVY LOADS!!!) is the most powerful break top you can get these days.

I have one of the Webleys (a Mk VI) and its a neat gun, but the standard .45 Colt load is considerably more powerful than the .455 Webley.

larger rounds, and higher pressure rounds simply won't work in a top break design, no matter how well made, it won't hold up the way a solid frame revolver will.

[105kw]

S&W made very few original single action New model #3 in 44WCF, and less in 38WCF. They started the 44s in 1885 by modifying the frame and cylinder to handle the extra length. These would have given about 900fps with black powder ammo. They get my vote for most powerful break tops around.
Only 2000 .44, and less then 100 .38 built between 1885 and 1908.
Of the original 1800s through WW2 guns

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

The 44-40 version of the New Model Number Three was cataloged as the New Model Number Three Frontier. 2072 of them were made between 1885 and 1905.

The 38-40 version of the New Model Number Three was one of the rarest, it was cataloged as the New Model Number Three 38 Winchester and only 74 of them were built between 1900 and 1907.

Originally all S&W #3 Top Breaks had cylinders 1 7/16" long, starting with the American Model that chambered the 44 S&W cartridge. When the Russian contracts came along, the cylinders were still 1 7/16" long for the 44 Russian cartridge. The standard 1 7/16" cylinder caused a bit of a problem when S&W bid on an Army contract to compete with Colt, because the cylinder was not long enough for the 45 Colt cartridge. This led to the development of the shorter 45 Schofield cartridge. S&W lengthed the cylinder to 1 9/16" for the 38-40 and 44-40 models, stretching the frame a similar amount.

The S&W 44 Double Action was also chambered for 44-40, with the 1 9/16" cylinder. 15,340 were made from 1886 to 1913. Only 276 Double Actions were made in 38-40 caliber.

This pair of 44 Double Actions are chambered for the standard 44 Russian cartridge. The nickel plated one at the top is a target model with an adjustable rear sight, the blued one at the bottom is a standard model with fixed sights.

[TruthTellers]

I'd say the modern made Uberti Schofield is the most powerful you're going to find that won't shoot the gun apart over a short time. To be easy on the gun, I would only shoot lead bullets in it. If you want a defense load for it, Federal makes a lead hollow point load that's quite reasonably priced.

I was on a break top kick a few months ago and I ended up buying an H&R .32 with exposed hammer. I love the little gun, timing is still good and it's a nice shooter.

But, when I started looking more into H&R revolvers, I saw they also made a few in .38 S&W and I was about to buy one until I found out that most bullets made for .38 S&W are 200 grains and the US made .38 top breaks couldn't handle that recoil or chamber the long bullet.

Thus, I gave up on US made .38 top breaks and think that if you're going to buy a top break and you want it to last, the best ones to get are the Webley's in .38/200, which is just a .38 S&W with a 200 grain bullet. I say that because the .38 S&W is so anemic I don't think it can possibly stretch any part of the gun.

The Uberti in .45 Colt... they haven't been out long enough to tell. Webley's have been around for almost 100 years.

[Hal]

The Uberti in .45 Colt... they haven't been out long enough to tell.

Maybe I'm wrong, but, hasn't Uberti been making those for over 20 some years?
I recall they made them for Beretta & Navy Arms.

[44caliberkid]

Smith and Wesson also made some new Schofields or Model 3's a dozen years ago or so. They didn't sell well and most are probably in collections. I would be curious to know if they did the short bushing like Uberti or if it was more like the original. Another question I have(maybe for Driftwood Johnson) is whether using Big Lube Bullets helps the Uberti versions run better with BP?
Webley MK VI shooting 45 ACP with half moon clips is very accurate and pretty powerful.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Smith and Wesson also made some new Schofields or Model 3's a dozen years ago or so. They didn't sell well and most are probably in collections. I would be curious to know if they did the short bushing like Uberti or if it was more like the original. Another question I have(maybe for Driftwood Johnson) is whether using Big Lube Bullets helps the Uberti versions run better with BP?
Webley MK VI shooting 45 ACP with half moon clips is very accurate and pretty powerful.

Howdy Again

I have heard it said before that the The Schofield models that S&W produced from 2000 to 2002 did not sell well. All I can say about that is every one that was produced, sold. There are none hanging around unsold anywhere. I suspect S&W realized they could not compete with the less expensive Italian imports, so they decided not to make any more.

I have handled a few, but have not taken a really close look at the bushing. I do know they were chambered for the original 45 Schofield cartridge, not 45 Colt, so there would be no reason to lengthen the cylinder without lengthening the frame. So the bushing should have been roughly the same arrangement as on the originals.

I don't own any Italian replicas of the Model 3 Smith and Wesson Top Break revolvers. So I cannot speak directly as to whether or not Big Lube bullets would help with Black Powder. Of course, since they carry much more BP compatible bullet lube than any other bullet that I am aware of, they must help some.

Interestingly enough, on Sunday I took a S&W New Model #3 that was made in 1896 to the range for the first time. I put about 30 rounds of 44 Russian loaded with Black Powder and Big Lube bullets through it. It performed like a champ.

The only bullets I use with Black Powder are Big Lube bullets.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Maybe I'm wrong, but, hasn't Uberti been making those for over 20 some years?
I recall they made them for Beretta & Navy Arms.

I don't know exactly when Uberti first brought out their Schofield model, but I can tell you it has been around plenty long enough to prove that it works fine and will last a long time as long as it is not abused. You can't shoot +P loads in them, but if you restrict them to moderate loads, they are fine.

Now the ones that ASM made, those were a different story.

[Hal]

suspect S&W realized they could not compete with the less expensive Italian imports, so they decided not to make any more.

I seem also to recall that the Italian imports weren't all that much cheaper - if any - than the S&W's.
If memory serves me, there was only a hundred bucks or so difference.

I was in the market for one - or the other - until I saw the prices.

[gwpercle]

After inheriting my grand fathers top break S&W and a full box of ammo , in 38 S&W cal., I couldn't wait to shoot it. After about 25 rounds I realized why this design was supplanted by the swing out cylinder model. It sort'a sucks rocks. Now I like old stuff, (I drive a 1968 Chevelle) but the latch is not easy to open and ejection and extraction is a chore, the worst part were the tiny sights. A tiny thin silver blade and a tiny notch and nothing is adjustable...I am a good shot and couldn't hit diddly with it. An 1851 Navy Colt , cap and ball is much more accurate and a K frame S&W in 38/357 is light years ahead.
The prices are rather steep and for my money and the fun factor a 1851 Navy ( Wild Bill Hickok preferred them) or 1860 Army Colt replica is much more fun and you can hit things with them.
Gary

[JL Wesson]

I have two of the Uberti Schofields. One is the standard 7" and the second is a 5".
Both in 45Colt. They are not cheap compared to any other replica available:
more or less they run about 1200€ figure new while you can get a Colt replica for half that price.

I am not sure if it qualifies as an hot load or even a +P load but I tried also to shoot a
250gr Flat Point lead ball with 20gr of Vitahvuori N110.
It is much hotter than the usual CAS load.
It left a lot of unburnt powder too and did a very scenic burst of flames from both the gap and the muzzle.
And yes, I could feel the recoil: not as punishing as full load of 45ACP in a S&W 625 tough.
No issues whatsoever with the guns even if, I admit, you might need a steady diet of hot loads to see any effect.
I quit those loads as they are of no use for me (no bears here) and unusefully expensive.

I am not sure if it would be worth considering them for self defense: at the ranges I would probably need to use my Schofield (basically indoor)
would a CAS load be enough?

[James K]

I am not sure of the resolution of the issue and if it had any bearing on S&W's decision to discontinue the new Schofield, but when it came out there were legal questions. Did being chambered for an obsolete cartridge make it an antique, or was it a modern gun by the date of manufacture? Anyway, the gun was discontinued and the "question" went away.

Jim