Another noob full of stupid questions .357

[Draciron]

Some of this is likely covered in FAQs somewhere though I've yet to find any real info on any of these topics, thus the reason I'm asking.

Due to scarcity of all materials I have a hodgepodge of bullets, powders and primers. Basically whatever I could scrounge in the calibers I shoot. This is increadibly frustrating though as a noob in trying to work up load data. Before anybody says simplify let me explain. First off I refuse to allow the Gov to deny me the right too shoot. So no I'm not going to wait 5 months which is what the waiting list is on many rounds to shoot a consistent round. More so I don't know for sure yet what will shoot best from my guns so I need to try different rounds until I find what is going to give me the best performance. Many of what I have are going to be one time purchases as I'll decide they are not what I want to shoot on a consitent basis. Nor am I wealthy, so I have to get what I can get when I can get it. Store shelves are often quite empty. So are online distributers.

So my first question is how to translate load data between grains and powders. For example I have some generic Winchester .357 125 gn hollow points that I have no reload data for. I have the Lee reloading manual, the Hodgen magazine and pdfs with Hodgen's data plus the small reloading manual for the calibers I shoot.

Background info - Reloading primarily for .357, 30.06, 38 special, .40 caliber but will likely also be reloading .45 acp, 30-30 ackley improved and .44 special and Magnum. Assuming I don't blow myself up learning on the calibers I shoot LOL.

The questions without the details involved are.

How to translate or build load data for a specific bullet/powder combination. If for example I find that powder X a powder I don't have uses 15 grains as a starting point for a round that I want to build a load for and I have info that has both the powder I wish to use and Powder X for another grain bullet. Can I take the relative difference and translate it to my powder of choice? If not how can I find a starting load when I have no listings for that powder and that grain of bullet?

Why do I find no references for H110 on smaller grain bullets and lead cast bullets? Is it a really bad powder for those bullets? Those who reload .357 what powder do you use on lead cast bullets and 125 grain bullets?

Magnum primers vs Small pistol primers. Is there a formula to translate normal primer loads to magnum primers?

Impact of barrel length on loads. Do I reduce or increase powder relative to the barrel length. I have a 4 inch barrel and load data for a 10 inch barrel. What's the impact?

Now on too details.

The powder I favor is H110 I also have Titegroup but I really hate using Titegroup. Hate is too mild a word for it. The margions are way too small. The load data is often only a grain between start and max. A tenth of a grain is a big difference with Titegroup where with H110 it's no big deal. Plus with H110 no way I double charge. On the heavier grain bullets according to the load data I have H110 will give me more FPS with less pressure than Titegroup. However there is limited data and no way I can afford to own and keep stocked up on 20 different powders. For the calibers I shoot and bullet types I shoot there is no single powder shown that works period much less is the best powder for that grain/type bullet. So far H110 seems to be highest FPS with lowest relative pressures though I'm tempted to give LilGun a try for certain rounds.

For .357 I am loading these rounds.
180 gr Sierra JHC
158 gr XTP
158 gr SCSWC
158 gr Speer UDCH JHP, Speer Jacketed FPs
125 gr XTP
125 gr Winchester JHP
125 gr Speer Gold Dot JPH

I can find Magnum primers and strongly prefer to load with them since I can actually get them. Small pistol primers are nearly impossible to get and working up test loads for some of these rounds nearly wiped out the small supply I was able to get. What few I have left I'd like to save for the cast bullets I have.

XTPs from the load data I've been able to find are hot stuff. You load them with more powder than other bullets of the same grain and I have magnum primer info on the critters. Is that a correct assumption?

The Speer and I'll assume the cheapo Winchester bullets appear to have thin jackets and are thus unable to take high pressure loads. I've come to this conclusing from some info sent to me by Speer which has load data for Speer bullets way lower than load data for the same grain bullet from other manufactuers and very low FPS for a .357 which I'd expect to have a min of 1200 fps for a jacketed bullet and normally 1300 to 1400.

I'm really worried about the titegroup stuff I've loaded. Primarily about an undercharge, though it'd be really easy to overcharge with titegroup. I would really like to replace that powder. It seems to be the best thing to shoot with lead bullets but I'll give up a little performance for safety in this case as I distrust myself using Titegroup and the very precise measurements involved. I spill a little powder while loading and a few tenths of a grain can leave me badly undercharged. Any recomendations for powder or sources of loads for lead bullets using H110 would be greatly appreciated.

Hopefully folks can civilly compare their favorite powders. Being a musician and a programmer I know the almost religious depth people can attach to subjective things like which is the best guitar or programming language. Not meaning to open up any wars with this. Just looking for opinions, especially those with pressure and FPS info. I am trying to build the best FPS with least pressure possible. Then fine tune for accuracy as needed.

Thanks for any help you can give me.

[wwmkwood]

Way too many questions to try to answer as one. The load tables list loads actually tested by them. H110 (and many other spherical powders) needs magnum primers for consistant ignition. Data for most jacketed bullets (like XTP) can be used as a guide for load development for other jacketed bullets but do not mix data from lead with jacketed. Lead builds more pressure due to the lead's stickyness with less powder.

[zxcvbob]

As long as you are above .38 Special load data, you are not going to undercharge Titegroup in a .357 Magnum. I don't like the stuff either, but it's not a bad choice for your 125 grain bullets in .357.

You need either magnum pistol primers or rifle primers with the H-110 powder, use a good crimp, and you have to load that one *hot*. If your gun has weak springs, it may have trouble firing rifle primers, also rifle primers can mask high-pressure signs. So I don't recommend using them in pistol cartridges, I'm just saying they'll work.

Get some medium-slow powder, like Herco or HS-6, and maybe some 158 grain cast bullets. Make your life easier -- they have wide latitude and will work with any kind of primer. AA#7 is my current favorite powder for .357 Magnum.

[dwhite]

<quote>
How to translate or build load data for a specific bullet/powder combination. If for example I find that powder X a powder I don't have uses 15 grains as a starting point for a round that I want to build a load for and I have info that has both the powder I wish to use and Powder X for another grain bullet. Can I take the relative difference and translate it to my powder of choice? If not how can I find a starting load when I have no listings for that powder and that grain of bullet?
</quote>

You cannot just extrapolate data between powders. What you need to do is find a load for at least a similar weight bullet. Then start with the minimum load listed for that bullet with the powder and bullet you have.

If you do the research, you'll find a load unless you're trying to run IMR-3031 in 357 magnum or something. You may have to buy a few manuals but that's in your best interest anyway. There is LOTS of data available on-line also.

If you have a Winchester 125 grain JHP for the most part any minimum load for a 125 grain jacketed bullet should be reasonably safe.

For example: Modern Reloading 2nd Edition shows a starting charge of 13.1 grains of BlueDot for a 125 grain jacketed bullet. This load is about 10% under the max load of 14.5 grains. I'd start with 13.1 with any jacketed bullet and feel confident I would not have an overpressure situation. I'd then work upwards from that in 0.2 grain increments until I found the maximum pressure load my gun would handle.

All the Best,
D. White

[Draciron]

That's kind of the problem. I have multiple load data sources but can't find any load data for 125 grain jacketed bullets except for XTPs.

Hmmm so far what I've loaded, haven't yet had a chance to go try it has been. I'd start with min load. So if 15 to 16.5 was the min to max spread with H110 I'd load up 5 with 15 then 5 with 15.7 then 5 with 16.2 assuming that max loads are always built with extra caution. I'd had several folks at gun shops recomend that I back off %15 off max load for starting load but I went with min load as the bottom. I plan to check for pressure and if there are any signs of excessive pressure or the kick is excessive (I have no other means to measure pressure) on a load I'll not fire the rounds with heavier loads. )

I'd love to use magnum primers on everything, I can actually get those. The only source of load data for Magnum primers I can find is the Hodgen magazine which uses Magnum primers. However there are no generic 125 grain rounds at all for any powder I have.

Places I've looked have been IMR, Hodgen, Hornady, Lee, plus I googled reloading data with my powders and grain bullet. Zero success. The Speer folks finally sent me load data after a long email exchange but it was all with small pistol primers not magnum primers. 125 grain had no H110 info.

[zxcvbob]

H110 is not a real good powder with lightweight bullets. (Find some 2400, Power Pistol, AA#7, HS-6, Longshot, etc.) It also has a very narrow range between min and max loads -- you definately do not want to reduce it 15%. Winchester (maker of W296, which is the same thing as H110) only gives max data and says not to reduce more than 3%.

In short high-pressure cases (like 9mm and especially .40S&W) the exact bullet can be important. In .357 Magnum, not so much because the case is so long relative to its diameter.

The main reason we start low and work up new loads is to account for variations in the components; an unusually fast- or slow-burning lot of powder, or a different primer, or bullets that don't quite match the data. Go ahead and use your magnum primers in everything; it's OK. You'll compensate for it automatically by working up your load. When I first started loading, I loaded 3 cartridges: 9mm, .45 Colt, and .30 Carbine. I only bought LP and SR primers. I didn't want to risk getting SP and SR's mixed up and have .30 Carbine cartridges loaded with pistol primers. The rifle primers worked just fine in 9mm.

BTW, you cannot use LR primers in large pistol brass, they are the right diameter but the wrong length. So don't even try it.

[Steviewonder1]

I used 2400 and Small Pistol primers when I load .357 Magnum bullets in either 125Gr HP or 158GR SWC. All work fine and no FTF. I use Bullseye in all 38 Spl with small pistol primers. Do read all of the info that the Powder Manufacturers show for a given cartridge, primer, powder combo. Cause a lot of them are using 8 inch test barrels not a real Revolver with a Cylinder/Barrel opening when measuring Speed of the bullet and other factors in the test lab.

[Sevens]

My knee-jerk reaction after reading your post here is that you are brand new to reloading and your question is basically saying, "Guys, I want to reload 8 different calibers and I'm starting with seven different bullets in .357 and I have two powders and I hate one of them. Please show me how to make all of this work using H110 and magnum primers without killing myself!"

Now that may not be exactly what you are thinking, but it's a lot to digest when we try to help! So let's start here.

You cannot just extrapolate data between powders. What you need to do is find a load for at least a similar weight bullet. Then start with the minimum load listed for that bullet with the powder and bullet you have.

Gotta quote dwhite here just to make sure this point gets through. He said it quite well, but to second the motion, you absolutely cannot extrapolate things when using DIFFERENT powders. You can fudge some numbers here and there slightly when working with different bullets, but with powder, NOT AT ALL, and don't even try.

If you want load data to use a particular powder in a caliber with a bullet, find some published data. Manufacturer web sites, loading manuals, printed powder guides, etc.

Next thing is that if you try to do a slew of calibers and a bunch of different bullet weights AND you want decent velocity AND you don't want unusually high pressure, then something has to give. Bro, you won't pull this off with one powder.

There are so many powders because we ask them to do a lot of different things. If you want to use only one powder at your bench, get used to the idea that it's just not going to work well.

As for primers, yep, buy a whole slew of magnum primers and use them. They are absolutely fine. What you should NOT do is to work up a load with regular primers that runs the ragged edge of safety and THEN insert a magnum primer with reckless abandon. That's the problem, that's a way to blow up a case and knock a magazine out of the bottom of a pistol.

[Draciron]

Close, I was asking for suggestions on a powder instead of H110 that had the best properties for the smaller grain bullets if H110 was not the best powder for those calibers.

I've got little choice about the wide variety of bullets. I can reload what I can find or I can sit around and dream of reloading until the months pass and MAYBE one of my backorders actually shows up at my doorstep. What I don't want to do is shoot lead cast if I can help it. Doesn't seem like there's any option there and I may have to get into casting my own bullets just to have ANY ammo to shoot.

Thanks folks on the comments. I feel much better about the Magnum primers now.

As for finding the load data, that's the problem I can't. Half the powders I can find listed for 125 grain bullets for .357 I cannot buy. At least the ones that appear to have good performance. Which may or may not be what I need since I'm using a much shorter barrel than the barrels listed. Not a snub nose but 4 inches is not exactly a long barrel either. So the charts might be utterly useless for me and I might need faster burning powders to achieve the same FPS. Dunno, that's why I'm asking folks and reading everything I can find. I'd love to standardize on a single powder just for safety reasons. The other day I caught myself dropping rifle powder into pistol cartridges. The 2 were so similar in apearence (H110 and H414) that it is an easy mistake to make. Luckily I noticed the mistake 4 or 5 cartridges in, dumped the powder and loaded again with the right powder. I darn sure don't want to load 21 grains of titegroup either. If the bullet left the barrel I suspect I'd get really good FPS but I doubt I'd really care about FPS anymore. However

So I'm asking questions. Best performance is worth owning multiple powders, I'm just surprised there is such a big difference between 125 and 158 grains. I'm also surprised that any given 2 charts list so many obscure powders. At least they seem obscure to me. According to the Lee reloading book the best powders for 125 grain jacketed are
Herc 2400 (Have yet to see any Herc powder anywhere. Didn't they get bought out?)
Win 296 (Hodgen owns Winchester powders now right? So wouldn't it be safe to assume Win 296 won't be around much longer?)
BlueDot (This powder I've actually seen fairly often)
HS7 (No idea who makes this or where I'd get it)
HERCO (Huh?)
Unique (This one actually seems to be for sale.)

According to the Lee charts Blue Dot will give me good FPS but the pressures are quite high. Noticably higher than the other top powders. Unique shows almost as much pressure but for 200 less FPS. They list more powders but there is a rapid deterioation of FPS from there. Most of the lower rated powders give you less pressure but have considerably lower FPS. How accurate that is with my gun I don't know. That is one of the things I'm asking about. Does a shorter barrel need a different powder and or load?

Thing is right at the top of this forum is a warning not to use Blue dot with .357 LOL. So now what? Kind of frustrated here. Are 125 grain bullets just not a good grain for .357?

Hodgdon only lists the XTP and Lead bullets in 125 grain. For the lead Titegroup appears to be the best. Only 6 powders are listed in the annual manual. I think the PDF lists a couple more. Noticably more powder is used for 158 grain XTPs than other 158 grain loads so I'm assuming the same is true for 125 grain XTPs. The Lee book shows completely different powders for the XTP than for a jacketed JHP, even shows a load using H110 that is quite good for the XTP. 1966 FPS with 41400 CUP compared to Accur 9 45100 CUP and 1872 FPS on the 125 grain FPS max loads. Neither Accur 9 or H110 show up in the 125 grain jacketed load data. This leads me to assume that XTPs are to be loaded quite differently than other bullets of the same weight. A correct assumption?

[Sevens]

The 2 were so similar in apearence (H110 and H414) that it is an easy mistake to make.

At the bench, we can make small goofs and colossal errors. This one here is a colossal error, and I would disagree that it's an easy mistake to make.

So you need to put some rules in place to keep this from EVER happening. Obviously, we aren't going to be identifying powders by the naked eye. There are probably 50 different powders that are WIDELY available without even getting in to the newer Ramshot stuff and the expensive Vihtavuori stuff.

The method I use: All my powders stay together in my powder cache. It's a plastic rubbermaid-type tote with a lid on it. This keeps them together and sheltered, but not sealed. My load bench top has NO powder cans on it unless I'm using and handling a particular powder. When I'm charging cases, the powder can I'm using is sitting right in the center of my bench. From the powder bottle/can to the powder measure or the dixie cup that I'm dipping powder from. With the can right there, I know exactly what I'm using 100% of the time. And just as important, when it comes time to clean up and shut things down, I can pour the powder from the measure or the cup right back in to the proper bottle without accidentally mixing anything.

Only one can at a time is allowed on my bench or even allowed out of my cache.

The mistake you made is not a small mistake. If you accidentally charged a .30/06 case with 59 grains of Titegroup, you would grenade any rifle that you tried it in. Not talking flattened primers, I'm talking metal shrapnel and powder burns and a stock that ends up looking like driftwood.

On the powders you listed, Herc 2400 is now owned by Alliant. Still called 2400. Win 296 and all Winchester powders are marketed by Hodgdon. W296 and H110 are the same powder. Blue Dot, Herco and Unique are all former Hercules powders now marketed by Alliant. Herco is not a highly popular powder. Unique may be one of THE most popular powders of all time. Many of us call it "combustible dirt." I'm not a fan of Unique, but some folks would take it as their only powder if they had to choose. HS7 is a Hodgdon powder, not sure if they are still making this one.

[dwhite]

What will really simplify your life is taking the time to find either some Unique or Universal powder. Power Pistol would be a good choice as would AA#5. These are all middle of the road powders which are quite popular and have LOTS of published data available. Double charging with these will be difficult.

Titegroup and H110 are at opposite ends of the spectrum in burning rate. With Titegroup your going to be limited to low-power loads and the possibility of double or even triple charging a case. H110 is going to limit you to flat out max loads with heaver bullets.

I'd hold off doing anything until I had one of the powders listed above or something similar.

All the Best,
D. White

[45Marlin carbine]

Unique does well with either 125 or 158gr jhp's. useing Mag primers can get a fairly stout load.
for all cast slug loads I use BullsEye or Red Dot (cleaner and more bulk than BE, this powder is often overlooked by handloaders as it is primarily a shotshell (12 ga) load powder)

[ZeSpectre]

Draciron

+1 on the folks who say start out with Unique. It's a good solid powder for .357 loads.

Each powder is different. You can NOT, for example, take the loads for Bullseye and use them to load Unique.

What matters most with bullets is weight and seating depth.

The biggest thing I'd recommend is the book "The ABC's of reloading" and also finding someone local who is an experienced reloader and who can show you the ropes.

Take your time, be careful, be safe!

[vranasaurus]

You can use data from one bullet to load another as long as the weight and length are the same and they are of similar construction.

If the length of the bullets are not the same and you seat them to the same length as the data you will affect the pressure of the load. A longer bullet seated to the same length will create a smaller powder chamber resulting in higher pressure.

Don't get hung up on finding data for that exact bullet.

However, as mentioned before you can't extrapolate data from different powders in order to come up with data for a powder not listed in the manual.

[James R. Burke]

You have some good advice from some real good reloaders. Wish I could add more, but the have it covered

[JackoP]

I'm new to reloading and worked out the sort of questions you have asked over the last few months . I ended up with a powder the gun shop wanted to sell me [ Alliant 2400 ] instead of the W296 or ADI 2205 to push 180 gr cast bullets , I relied on their advice - no big deal just ended up with a powder that won't push the chosen bullets as quick as I hoped but it's nearly all burned now . I will be using these powders for 158 gn Jacketed bullets , 160 and 180 gr cast bullet loads .

I settled for ADI AP70 as a second powder which is identical to Hodgdon Universal [ ADI make it for Hodgedon ] for loading lighter bullets in the .357 and +P 38 special loads . I have been very happy with the results and realise now that one powder will not work across the range of bullet weights .

I also found when I was developing my loads that magnum primers gave me better accuracy in my .357 than standard primers . The standard primers I have left seem good in the 38 special loads .

The powder manufacturers websites have given me the starting points of the loads I've developed - Initially I was concerned I did not have the same bullets as listed in the data but this has proven an unfounded fear so long as I did not mix up Cast or Jacketed load info , some bullets just did not shoot accuratly so I won't be using them again .

regards Jacko