|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
February 10, 2012, 04:13 AM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: In the valley above the plain
Posts: 13,424
|
Something new to play with
Today, my .429" Lee sizer came in.
A few hours later, my .375" lead wire showed up. All I had to do was put them to use. The basic idea is to clean up a .40 S&W case, trim it to the desired length, bump it up to .429"+ by cramming it full of lead, shape the nose, push it through a sizing die, and load it as a jacketed bullet. These have a finished weight of 275 grains, in a full-length .40 S&W case (+/-0.8 gr). For Winchester cases, that's 203 gr in the lead core and 72 gr for the case/jacket. My dies will let me swage down to about 205 grains in trimmed cases/jackets with acceptable results, but the best bullets seem to come from the 240-275 gr range. It starts as (s)crap, and ends up as a semi-premium bullet loaded in .44 Rem Mag and .444 Marlin: (Flared to .44 caliber on left. Lead core seated, on right.) (Note the difference in lead exposure of the bullets in the background. That's due to differences in case wall thickness between two different lots of Winchester brass - even though they weighed the same. That brass had to come from somewhere. My guess is the web. ) (The .44 Mag is a dummy.) I'm experimenting with bonding the cores, but my heat sources do not play well with brass. Eventually, I might get it figured out... I'll share some more details after the loads are pressure tested on Saturday.
__________________
Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe. |
February 10, 2012, 05:44 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 9, 2011
Location: Just outside Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 722
|
Extremely interesting, please keep us posted.
__________________
The private ownership of firearms is an American Heritage. Anyone who disputes that is Anti-American and unpatriotic. NRA Life Member |
February 10, 2012, 01:09 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 25, 2009
Location: Stuttgart, AR
Posts: 1,569
|
While I can stretch my mind to grasp mashing the upper part of the case out to 0.429", I'm a thinking that the 40S&W base, at 0.424, would be "loose" on the bottom side. Is this true? What will be the effect?
__________________
A lack of planning on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on my part. Last edited by serf 'rett; February 12, 2012 at 11:34 PM. |
February 10, 2012, 02:02 PM | #4 |
Junior Member
Join Date: February 10, 2012
Posts: 4
|
This is very neat.
Just curious, did anything motivate you to do this other than just because you can? I'm excited to see what data you acquire later. |
February 10, 2012, 04:06 PM | #5 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: In the valley above the plain
Posts: 13,424
|
Quote:
It doesn't matter, though. Just think of it as a very slight boat tail shape. Quote:
I don't have a .40 S&W (and didn't/don't want to buy one). I needed some cheap jacketed .44 caliber projectiles. I wanted a decent jacketed hunting bullet for the .444, that didn't cost $1 apiece. And, most importantly, I just love seeing the look on my father's face, every time I mention turning his beloved .40 S&W brass into bullet jackets. Of course, they're dirt cheap, as well. Assuming accuracy and terminal performance are acceptable, I'll be into this $5 for a set of Bair Cub 7x57mm Mauser dies. The Lyman M die belongs to my set of .44 Mag dies, and the .429" sizer (used here mainly for the base punch) has future uses outside of this endeavor. Cost breakdown is roughly ($): Jacket: free (call it 0.01 each, if you want to count cleaning) Lead: 0.11 each, with commercial lead wire; or 0.033 each, with reclaimed lead*; or 0.02 with wheel weight lead*. (*including 0.01 each, for propane, to smelt the lead.) Bonding chemicals: 0.0098 each with commercial core bond liquid. So, the most expensive product is the commercial lead wire, bonded, at 13 cents each. The cheapest bonded bullet comes in at 4 cents each for wheel weight lead. And the cheapest bullet, altogether, comes in at 3 cents. I'm hoping these work out. Down the road, I might try .380 Auto and/or .223 Rem for .375" projectiles, if I can get the tools together.
__________________
Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe. |
||
February 10, 2012, 04:14 PM | #6 |
Member
Join Date: February 6, 2012
Posts: 23
|
Range report, pronto. Find a soft target to hit, reclaim the bullet, let us know what's up.
This is a very original idea, I want to see how it performs. |
February 10, 2012, 05:01 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 7, 2000
Location: Floating down the James River in VA
Posts: 2,599
|
Dumb question: Can you "pour" a core for the bullet, using conventional casting equipment?
Would that bond to the case? |
February 10, 2012, 05:03 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 3, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 3,930
|
I think you have to pour the lead wire. A few different makers make molds for casting swaging wire.
__________________
No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you. |
February 10, 2012, 07:27 PM | #9 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 7, 2012
Location: hudson valley NY
Posts: 517
|
Quote:
he has used alot of brass to make bullets but the cost is more to use brass bullets as a shell. on the other hand the cci alum cases no one takes also work perfect and dont deplete the brass you have. the best use of brass thought that i have used is re swagging a 22 lr brass into a head from a 5.56 or 223 rifle. |
|
February 10, 2012, 10:15 PM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 2010
Location: Independence Missouri
Posts: 4,585
|
Frankenmauser, you have too much time on your hands dude!! But if it works I'm on the bandwagon, if you know what I mean!!
BE CAREFULL: not to have tooo much fun dude!!!
__________________
Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry. |
February 11, 2012, 12:36 AM | #11 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 8, 2008
Location: 8B ID
Posts: 1,753
|
Quote:
I was over watching him swage/press/form (whatever it is) some of these projectiles tonight.......its much less complicated than I expected, and finally lets us use the .40 S&W brass we have been collecting for the last few years. Hope fully we will have some good results from tomorrows testing to report.
__________________
The answer to 1984 is 1776 |
|
February 11, 2012, 01:25 AM | #12 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: In the valley above the plain
Posts: 13,424
|
Quote:
Unless the case is cleaned to raw brass, the same temperature as the lead alloy, and treated with a bonding agent or flux, it won't bond. -- The wire I'm using right now is Rotometals extruded pure lead wire. It's rather expensive (almost $6 per foot), but I only needed a couple feet to test the feasibility of this method. Right now, I'm at the point that I have full confidence in this bullet design becoming a staple at my bench. So, I'll probably be ordering a bullet mold, to act as a core mold. I just need to decide on a weight range for the finished bullet, and so I can start browsing for an appropriate mold (.35, .38, or .40 caliber). The lead wire is great to work with, but I can't justify the cost. Here's a shot of a regular .40 S&W case, a case expanded to .44 caliber, and a lead core of about 200 gr. Quote:
Quote:
I know of only one other person doing this with a reloading die. (I'm using a 7x57mm sizing die.)
__________________
Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe. |
|||
February 11, 2012, 08:25 AM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 2010
Location: Independence Missouri
Posts: 4,585
|
I want to see pictures of the bore fouling., can you get some pics of what that brass doe to a bore,,,, and what muzzle velocity are you working for?
Also will I be able to hear it fire over here in missouri?
__________________
Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry. |
February 11, 2012, 01:50 PM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 28, 2010
Location: Pinckney,Michigan
Posts: 151
|
subscribing.
|
February 11, 2012, 09:14 PM | #15 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 7, 2012
Location: hudson valley NY
Posts: 517
|
Quote:
|
|
February 11, 2012, 09:16 PM | #16 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 7, 2012
Location: hudson valley NY
Posts: 517
|
Quote:
either way good luck. i have made 40's like this and thot pretty good but i ended up just getting a normal barrel for my glock and shooting cast lead |
|
February 12, 2012, 03:20 AM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: In the valley above the plain
Posts: 13,424
|
We have results.
I am very impressed with how tough this bullet is, and how well they hold together. If you're still in kindergarten, just look at the pictures. You won't hurt my feelings, by skipping the text. ...I probably would, too. This is going to be a long thread. To break up the monotony a bit, I'll be using bold letters to set some words off. We fired 10 bullets of 3 different weights from a Ruger Super Blackhawk and a S&W 29 (both in .44 Mag, of course), at about 950 fps (estimated). The only factory ammo we remembered to take with us for comparison was some Remington 240 grain Hollow Points at 1180 fps. Since we forgot to fire any other revolver rounds into the wet pack, it wasn't quite as useful as we had hoped. {slap forehead} We also fired 20 of the 275 grain bullets from an H&R Handi-Rifle in .444 Marlin, from 1900 to 2400 fps (estimated). The ammunition chosen for comparison was Hornady Superformance 265 gr FP Interlocks, at 2400 fps. There were 3 different types of bullets tested: 1. Plain - The case is not annealed, and the core is not bonded. 2. Annealed - The cases is annealed before the core is seated. 3. Bonded - The cores were bonded to the jackets. There were 3 different weights tested: 1. 275 grain - This was the only weight tested in the .444, and only 2 bullets of this weight were tested in the .44 Mags. 2. 225 grain - This was the primary weight for the revolvers. None of these were tested in the .444. 3. 185 grain - This was a developmental failure at the bench (equipment limitation), only two were fired, only in the .44 Mags... for the heck of it. Most of the bullets were fired into a crappy cooler that was packed as tight as I could get it, with wet phone books, magazines, catalogs, and newspaper. A few bullets were fired into targets of opportunity. That will be pointed out, as needed. To "calibrate" my test media, I fired a .177" BB at 625 fps. It penetrated 1/8". At that velocity, standard ballistic gel penetration is just over 3". (I would insert the "GASP" smiley, but the forum won't let me.) A Remington .22 LR Golden Bullet from a 22" bbl penetrated only 5/8". ("GASP" again.) That stuff was packed tight. As much paper as possible was removed from the bullets before being weighed. Look at those mushrooms on top! They're better than most commercial bullets I've recovered. The key to the photograph:
There were also several 275 gr Bonded, Plain, and Annealed bullets fired into mud and dirt with the .444 Marlin, that could not be recovered. They simply penetrated too deeply to be dug out. (Another smiley should be here.) Another view. Flipped over. Another view, flipped over. Close-ups of the 4 bonded bullets fired at the highest muzzle velocities: Note the missing primer. It blew it out, backwards, when the bullet impacted the wet-pack. The forum software is getting angry at me. I'll cover a few of the details in the next post.
__________________
Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe. Last edited by FrankenMauser; February 12, 2012 at 03:28 AM. |
February 12, 2012, 03:25 AM | #18 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: In the valley above the plain
Posts: 13,424
|
As promised, the close up of the doughnut:
So... Lessons learned: 1. These things are TOUGH! 2. Accuracy wasn't really tested today, but terminal performance is great. If I can hold accuracy at Minute-of-Elk, or better, these will be my primary projectile in the .444. 3. Annealing is a waste of time. Bonded bullets get annealed when they're bonded. Plain bullets are deep penetrators. The middle ground, annealed (but not bonded) bullets just shed weight and come apart. Bonding: I know you're wondering. To bond these cores, I used a paste flux meant for tin solder. Something meant for lead would have been even better, but even this "compromise" worked very well. I boiled the cases clean, dried them thoroughly, brushed the inside of the case with flux, inserted the core, and heated the assembly. When the lead was melted, and the flux was burned/evaporated, they were set aside to cool. If the lead draws up the sides of the case, and leaves a sink hole in the center, you're good to go. If not, you fail. It's a reject (I had a few). Quote:
The bore appears to be fine. I didn't expect otherwise. Cartridge brass is 30% Zinc, which acts as a lubricant in the bore, and, often, reduces fouling. It's late. I'm tired. I'll come back tomorrow, and fix the typos I'm certain are in these two posts. On a side note: One of the reasons I'm so tired, is because I spent 4 hours sorting some of today's haul: That's a 48 quart tote, filled to the brim on the near side. It weighed 45-50 lbs, before I started sorting. Thanks to Crankylove, Cornbush, and Cornbush's kids. Less than 100 cases belong to me, and less than 40 shot shells were from us. All of the rest ...were left in the desert (mostly today) by non-reloaders. It was a good day.
__________________
Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe. Last edited by FrankenMauser; February 12, 2012 at 03:40 AM. |
|
February 12, 2012, 09:35 AM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 29, 2008
Location: The retarded place below Idaho
Posts: 1,408
|
Gotta love public ground where the brass gets left, wish they would pick up the rest of their garbage though.....
__________________
The best shot I ever made was an accident |
February 12, 2012, 09:42 AM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 18, 2010
Location: Independence Missouri
Posts: 4,585
|
Bravo!!!! Bravo man!!! Thats' cooler than _its!!!!
That will be a "wicked hog round", heck, bear probably!!! Jeeze man BRAVO!!!! hehehehehe!!! jeeze,.....
__________________
Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry. |
February 12, 2012, 09:59 AM | #21 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
|
You should put 22 shells in the middle to act as a hollow point!
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley |
February 12, 2012, 10:43 AM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 21, 2009
Location: West Central Missouri
Posts: 2,592
|
Tag.
This is too cool not to follow.
__________________
Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen. |
February 12, 2012, 01:54 PM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: In the valley above the plain
Posts: 13,424
|
The plan, from here (in no particular order):
-Finish my new reloading bench. Swaging these bullets is putting a lot of stress on my Redding T-7 turret press. I'd prefer to get the new bench finished, so I can mount my Rock Chucker for swaging these bullets. The RC also has a better mechanical advantage, so it will take less work from the human at the handle. -I need to decide on a finished bullet weight (or two) to stick with, so I can decide on a mold to use for consistent cores. Right now, I'm cutting cores from the lead wire and tricking up to the desired weight with #9 lead shot. I can't see the voids and graphite from the shot being good for accuracy. NOE molds makes a multi-weight pointed soft point three-cavity mold (412-210) that is really close to what I would want. I need to see if the owner can make me a custom mold for the exact weights I want. -And, of course, accuracy testing.
__________________
Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe. |
February 12, 2012, 02:05 PM | #24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2010
Location: AR
Posts: 1,401
|
This is coolest post I have seen in years. Consistency could be met by weighing cases or possibly using 40cal lead bullets weighed out and pressed in the 40 SW case. Two thumbs up for Frankenmauser.
|
February 12, 2012, 07:08 PM | #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 8, 2000
Posts: 2,101
|
Between you and BT Sniper over on Castbolits, you fellows are going to get me to swadgeing my own yet.
He uses C&H dies he modifies to work a bit better than the standard version and there are quite a few folks who are putting out some GREAT looking bullets from all sorts of different caliber cases. Thanks for sharing yours.
__________________
LAter, Mike / TX |
|
|