reloading question

[unclejack37]

I reload for 9mm, 38 special, 357 magnum, and 44 magnum. All of my reloading is for target practice. I've never thought of reloading for defensive purposes. My EDC is a Beretta 9mm Nano. I purchased Hornady custom 147 grain XTP and Dynamic Research Technologies 85 grain JHP fragmenting bullets. I alternate the bullets in the magazine. Does anyone here load their own defensive bullets? I just never gave it any thought until now.

[Ben Dover]

I've discussed this with several attorneys, and one district attorney. Their advice is to carry factory ammo.

It's always nice, if you end up in a court room to be able to say: "Geez. That's what the cops use, so I figured they must be the experts."

[gwpercle]

I do not know of an actual case of handloaded ammo used in a self defense situation getting the shooter in trouble ....but why take a chance. Lawyers are slick and can turn anything against you .
All the advice I have ever seen is to carry factory ammo .

I would also not carry 85 gr. and 147 gr. ammo staggered....point of aim and point of impact will vary greatly between the two loads , possibility enough to make you miss . Hold high then hold low....in a tight situation you don't have time to adjust your hold ...just don't .
Split the difference and go with 124 gr for the whole clip.
Gary

[USSR]

Does anyone here load their own defensive bullets?

I do. I match my alloy to my intended velocity.

Don

[Radny97]

I’m a lawyer and i load my own defensive ammo. I think the “don’t do it, you’ll look guilty” folks are not correct on assessing the risks. But to each their own. There’s lots of good factory ammo out there if that’s what they want to carry.

After lots of testing I’ve become partial to Speer gold dots over a max load of HS-6, pick your caliber.


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[std7mag]

I'm not a lawyer. I don't buy factory ammo.
For my 45 ACP i'm loading 185gr Sierra JHP Power Master and the 185gr Sierra JFP Tournament Master over a load of Silhouette.

9mm i'm shooting 115gr Sierra JHP Power Master.

[Grey_Lion]

I haven't bought ammo in years. I swage my own hollow-points and load in cast, plated and FMJ rounds- I load to a minimum standard of "I would defend my family and myself with this ammunition". I scale weigh each powder load to the tenth grain. I trust my reloads above factory ammunition. I have had 3 miss-fires in 12000 reloads. I have had 3 miss-feeds in 12000 reloads. My process inspects each round 5 to 8 times each.

My defensive loads are reloads only.

I would advise you to consider that factory ammo is processed in massive lots by machines and a small percentage of it is test-fired in quality testing.

Are your quality protocols better or worse than factory ammo?

[Sevens]

There is one known gunwriter, trainer, competitor that is known beyond all others for suggesting that it's best to use factory ammunition for defense. That doesn't mean you MUST, but one of the main reasons he suggests it is because when you are carrying a known, established factory load, a lab can better attempt to re-create things in a lab simply by using the same (available) product which cannot be done with handloads. This same well known authority offers a very specific, known actual court case where YES, it did matter.

I've been handloading all my center fire pistol ammo for nearly 30 years, and I document all I do (heavily) and my rate of failure is less than 3/12,000 as posted above. I do not equate $1-$2 per round premium defense ammo (Federal HST) with junk, bulk, low priced factory FMJ or nasty Euro or shoddy Chi-Com import ammo.

I have great faith in my ammo, but I have similar faith in premium defense ammo also. I use premium factory defense ammo and I'll stick with that.

I don't have any problem with folks who choose to use their own handloads for defense but I do like to rebut them when they say they do it because they don't think the premium factory defense ammo isn't reliable or quality.

This debate has a tremendously large and energetic history on gun forums.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by gwpercle

I do not know of an actual case of handloaded ammo used in a self defense situation getting the shooter in trouble ....but why take a chance. Lawyers are slick and can turn anything against you .

Our moderator, Frank Ettin, does. He has written about it on this forum, awhile back.

I'm paraphrasing from memory, but the crux of the issue is gunshot residue. If you use factory ammo, if/when the forensics people look at gunshot residue ("GSR"), they can go to the manufacturer and get load data, fire test shots, and compare the GSR from test firing with what was found at the scene of the incident. Manufacturers' data are third party and objective.

If you reload, even if you maintain meticulous records, your records aren't third party. They're YOUR records. They might have been faked. Or the ammunition you actually used in the shooting might not have been loaded to what you claim it was loaded to.

Many people choose to downplay the potential significance of all this and they carry their own defensive ammunition. I have not seen a single article by a practicing attorney that thinks this is a good idea. I'm not an attorney, and I am inherently risk-aversive. I load for recreational shooting. For self defense, I carry factory ammunition.

[Dufus]

They're YOUR records. They might have been faked. Or the ammunition you actually used in the shooting might not have been loaded to what you claim it was loaded to.

Whatever is left will be held in evidence, even your $3,000.00 Les Baer 1911 (if that is what was on you).

The lab folks can disassemble the remaining rounds of ammunition and tell exactly what is in them.

So, factory or hand loads, use what you have or want to and let the experts do the forensics.

Please note that I am not an attorney and do not condone hand loaded ammo as self defense.

It is totally up to the individual to choose. Lots of knowledgeable folks have commented on the legal aspects of factory vs handloaded ammo, but some still choose to question their knowledge. I don't because, as I said, I am not an attorney.

[Aguila Blanca]

Suggested reading:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...residue&page=2
All good, but especially post #38. Also Bartholomew Roberts' comments

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...ce+gsr+residue
See post #10 for additional links

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...ce+gsr+residue
See post #18 for additional links

[Metal god]

I do not know of an actual case of handloaded ammo used in a self defense situation getting the shooter in trouble .

Fare enough , please tell us about all the cases you know about that someone did use there handloads for self defense and the DA said nothing about it .

I’m a lawyer and i load my own defensive ammo. I think the “don’t do it, you’ll look guilty” folks are not correct on assessing the risks.

The most common answer I've heard or at least the answer I agree with is the DA can claim you loaded your own to make them EXTRA deadly . I mean why else would you if there are so many good and very lethal factory loaded rounds available and on the market . Trying to explain all the reasons why one might load there own ammo for self defensive reasons will be hard pressed when the likelihood the 12 people you are trying to convince know nothing about firearms .

That's my take on it anyways

[FoghornLeghorn]

I got distracted while reloading one time and forgot to put powder in the case. At the range, the primer detonated and firmly lodged the bullet in the barrel.

I've never had that problem with factory ammo. They've always remembered to put powder in the case.

That's reason enough for me to use factory ammo in my SD weapons. Especially the ones I CC.

[markr6754]

My one and only squib was a factory load. Made worse by a gun range tech that had no idea how to remove a stuck bullet...he totally screwed my 92FS barrel, then claimed the internal damage to my barrel must have caused the squib.

Turns out, the entire lot of factory ammo, by American Ammunition (now out of business) wasn’t crimped...and I’m guessing now...the brass wasn’t properly sized/the bullets were undersized.

I noticed the plastic clamshell holder had a lot of loose powder, but then I picked up a new round and the bullet fell out, as well as all the powder in the cartridge. Wish I’d noticed before loading those rounds in the first place. Tried some other rounds and I could pull the bullet by hand. Last time I ever bought that ammo...and the initial reason for loading my own.

[Sevens]

That's an interesting experience but it has little value in this discussion, your trouble was with perhaps the worst crap ever dumped on the market, comparing A-Merc ammo (and brass) to premium defense ammo may be even further out in left field than comparing apples to Buicks.

[mikld]

I first stumbled on the "prosecuted for Killer handloads" topic when I first discovered reloading forums in 2008. After dozens of threads (arguments) I have yet to read of one case where a shooter using handloads was prosecuted or even sued for their ammo. Not one.... I've read many, many times "legal experts suggest", but no reference to who the "expert" is or what they really say. Mr. Ayoob wrote an article and is often quoted, but I read the article and has nothing to to with "deadly handloads"...

100% speculation (aka WAG).

[44 AMP]

The lab folks can disassemble the remaining rounds of ammunition and tell exactly what is in them.

They can do that, but it may not matter.

If you reload, even if you maintain meticulous records, your records aren't third party. They're YOUR records. They might have been faked. Or the ammunition you actually used in the shooting might not have been loaded to what you claim it was loaded to.

Because of this...

The one case I'm aware of (thanks to that known gunwriter) was not a self defense case. In a nutshell, the wife was dead, the husband said she shot herself. The crime lab said she didn't, based on the amount of gunshot residue, she was shot from several feet away. That made it murder, and husband was so charged.

To further complicate the matter, the reloaded ammo used came out of a box that had (at least) two DIFFERENT loads in it. One light, one not.

The defense argument was that the prosecution was wrong, that she shot herself, the lab was wrong, the light load left less GSR and so APPEARED to be a regular load fired from further away.

There was apparently no way to determine what the round FIRED had been loaded with. As noted, your records are suspect, simply because you are the accused. As mentioned, there is no way to prove that the round(s) fired were the same as your records (if any) indicate.

Likewise there is possible doubt that even remaining unfired rounds in the gun are the same as the round(s) fired. Because you handloaded them.

Factory ammo is a "known standard" that the court accepts. Handloads are not, and cannot be.

[Metal god]

I have yet to read of one case where a shooter using handloads was prosecuted or even sued for their ammo. Not one....

Here’s another person saying they’ve never heard of one case that a hand loader was charged or the handloads did not effect the outcome of the trial . I ask you the same question. Please tell us about all the cases you’ve seen or read about where reloads were used and the DA did not point that out at trial ???

I have not seen one proven case either , at the same time I’ve not seen one case saying the opposite either . Basicly meaning I actually have NO actual knowledge on this subject what so ever . Do you ?

Let me put it another way . I've never seen , not one case where the DA DID NOT emphasize the defendant used his own reloaded ammo . See when you have no data either way you can say it either way . Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

[USSR]

Round and round we go - where it stops, nobody knows. Carry what you want.

Don

[RC20]

Well, this is the place for a reloading question for sure.

However, what you ask is not a reloading question.

Its combo of a tactical question and morphs into legal.

[mikld]

I think it would be appropriate to prove something did happen rather than something wouldn't happen. Kinda like the burden of proof isn't on the "show me" side but rather on the "it can happen" speculation/theory...

I agree, this topic has never been proven nor disproven. Sorta depends on one's mind set...

[gwpercle]

Originally Posted by Radny97

I’m a lawyer and i load my own defensive ammo. I think the “don’t do it, you’ll look guilty” folks are not correct on assessing the risks. But to each their own. There’s lots of good factory ammo out there if that’s what they want to carry.

After lots of testing I’ve become partial to Speer gold dots over a max load of HS-6, pick your caliber.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm glad to hear you say that , right now my 38 special is loaded with some 160 grain cast lead wadcutters that I use in target shooting . An extremely accurate load that I can shoot well and , most importantly , they are tailored to shoot to the guns fixed sights.

No factory ammo I have tried shoot exactly to the sights ...so I developed one and decided to take my chances in front of a jury if handloaded was a problem . Louisiana is not too hard on gun owners .
Gary

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

The one case I'm aware of (thanks to that known gunwriter) was not a self defense case. In a nutshell, the wife was dead, the husband said she shot herself. The crime lab said she didn't, based on the amount of gunshot residue, she was shot from several feet away. That made it murder, and husband was so charged.

To further complicate the matter, the reloaded ammo used came out of a box that had (at least) two DIFFERENT loads in it. One light, one not.

The defense argument was that the prosecution was wrong, that she shot herself, the lab was wrong, the light load left less GSR and so APPEARED to be a regular load fired from further away.

There was apparently no way to determine what the round FIRED had been loaded with. As noted, your records are suspect, simply because you are the accused. As mentioned, there is no way to prove that the round(s) fired were the same as your records (if any) indicate.

Likewise there is possible doubt that even remaining unfired rounds in the gun are the same as the round(s) fired. Because you handloaded them.

Factory ammo is a "known standard" that the court accepts. Handloads are not, and cannot be.

That sounds like the case Frank Ettin has discussed, and I think his discussion is in one of those links I posted to previous threads on this forum. 44 AMP has the essentials correct, as far as my recollection is concerned.

As I believe I have mentioned, I'm risk aversive. If I'm going to be on trial for having killed someone, the last thing I want to go is give the prosecution anything they can use to attack me.

[MarkCO]

It won't matter one way or the other in at least 99.9% of the cases. It is a topic with grandiose ideas, hyperbole, speculation, hypotheticals, with scant if any practicality.

[Sevens]

If you were ALSO describing the chance of failure with premium, quality defensive handgun ammo as well, I would totally agree.