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May 18, 2014, 09:26 AM | #1 |
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Can extra clip lead to trouble?
We have all heard the horror story. A law abiding citizen who has a CC permit uses his gun to defend his life and ends up in court trying to defend himself against a prosecutor intent on putting him behind bars. My question is this. Lets say a guy with a CC permit shoots a BG in self defense and ends up in court. And let's assume the prosecutor learns the defendant was carrying an extra clip loaded with bullets in his pocket. Would the prosecutor use that against the defendant by claiming he was looking for trouble with the intent to use his weapon based on his carrying extra ammo? Would the prosecutor be able to argue the defendant was looking for a fight? Could carrying an extra loaded clip end up costing you in court should you end up being there defending yourself?
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May 18, 2014, 09:43 AM | #2 |
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That depends on those 'peers' in that jury. Any prosecutor worth anything would do exactly this. This is why we have defense attorneys. Believe me, in this situation, every small detail will come out.
I personally carry an extra mag for my 45 and 40, 2 for the 380. I like having at least 20 rounds total. Currently one extra mag has FMJ, because if I get that far, apparently greater barrier penetration is likely needed, I and BG(s) are more likely to be under cover. |
May 18, 2014, 09:54 AM | #3 |
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Yes, it should be called a magazine by the current political gun term correctness. It is ambiguous whether the term clip was used for the current term magzine in the past. So that's, that - let it go!!!
As far as the issue - yes, anything can be prejudicial. The prosecutor doesn't even have to make a big deal about - just lay out your equipment and some folks will take umbrage at it. As far as going to FMJ for penetration - standard wisdom regards that as not being a good strategy. Does that cover everything?
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May 18, 2014, 10:03 AM | #4 | |
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Huh?
Quote:
I like having different ammo in the spare mags. Right now, it's FMJ. I'll change my mind later to different SD ammo. What I won't do, is depend on the one mag only. It's not about amount of rounds really, it's about backup in case of failure, which I would hope in this case, my defense would argue. |
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May 18, 2014, 10:29 AM | #5 | |
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May 18, 2014, 10:30 AM | #6 |
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Would good defense attorneys also ask any LEO that makes it onto the stand what the departmental guidelines are for reloads they have to carry?
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May 18, 2014, 10:31 AM | #7 |
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Why would they, unless the SD Shooter was an off-duty LEO?
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May 18, 2014, 10:42 AM | #8 |
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If the prosecutor is trying to paint carrying an extra mag as "bloodthirsty" as opposed to reasonable precautions against mechanical failure?
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May 18, 2014, 11:06 AM | #9 |
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A defense attorney might ask, but if I were prosecuting, the question would certainly draw an objection on relevance from me.
If you're looking to get "I carried multiple magazines as insurance against mechanical failure in my firearm" in as evidence, it can be done. Asking the arresting officer how many magazines he or she carries is probably not the way to go about it.
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May 18, 2014, 12:01 PM | #10 |
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I carry what I think I need most of the time my Ruger p89 and 1 spare Mag .If I think there is a chance of trouble I may grab my carbine and 6 spare Mags . I'm not fireing a shot unless I need to . As far as what LEO carrys thats between the officer and his department . I don't have such restraints .
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May 18, 2014, 12:27 PM | #11 |
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Sigh. OK. Here's the way to deal with that argument. There are a lot of ways that a semi-auto can fail that can be blamed on the magazine itself - feed lips too tight, mag catch point worn, other issues. It's even possible for these things to happen while you're shooting the initial mag. In that event a second mag can clear problems and be useful even before the first mag is shot dry.
The second reason for a 2nd mag that doesn't involve ammo capacity is in certain defenses against a gun being grabbed away from you - esp. if the gun has a mag disconnect safety. In that event if there's a struggle for the gun and you think you might lose, you can drop the mag, deal with the wrestling match and then reload. ALL cops with semis carry a spare mag. If it was nutso for you to do it it's crazy for them. The next thing you do in response to this in court is to ask why the prosecutor is bringing up obvious BS - is that because he fundamentally doesn't have a case?
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May 18, 2014, 12:51 PM | #12 | |
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I’m sorry, but I see all too often in this forum about having to hire a lawyer being mandatory for everything. It shouldn’t be that way, but unfortunately it has become necessary because the general public has allowed it to evolve that way. I have read of stories where a lawful, clear cut, incidence caused people to sell their homes, sell nearly everything but the shirt on their back, just because some prosecutor wanted to make a name for himself. A known gang banger breaks into someone’s home, home owner grabs a gun and checks out the noises. Gang banger shoots at but misses home owner. Home owner returns fire and kills gang banger. Police report agrees with the forementioned scenario. Home owner has to sell home to defend himself in court. Pure BS. |
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May 18, 2014, 01:37 PM | #13 | |
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As such, there's always going to be scrutiny. It's best to not to do things that invite more scrutiny, and it's a good idea to have legal representation to ensure that the process is fair.
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May 18, 2014, 01:59 PM | #14 |
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I've even heard of court arguments based on the gun's action, single action vs double action and what not. So if they try to paint the SD as a gun toting lunatic who is dangerous to society because he is carrying "extra MAGAZINES" , I wouldn't be a bit surprised.
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May 18, 2014, 04:30 PM | #15 |
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"Would the prosecutor use that against the defendant by claiming he was looking for trouble with the intent to use his weapon based on his carrying extra ammo?"
It would be precisely any prosecutor ballsey enough to try pinning a rape on the victim. It's a pretty high-stakes way to run a case, and is probably due to a lack of other evidence. I think it'd be pretty easy to convince a jury of Pelosi's that a pocket full of bullets doesn't constitute intent to bait an attacker, let along aggressive behavior, on its own (does a pile of bullets in the street invite violent attack?). Now, if your defense attorney did such a terrible job that he allowed a jury full of spiteful maggots intent on railroading you to be seated, well...that's what appeals are for. BTW, in "clear cut, lawful" incidents, people don't have to sell their houses. The fact that dozens (hundreds?) of people have to be in agreement for a DA, judge, and jury to make the case a big one, it's because there's the perception the case is not so clear cut. TCB *I'd bet a far more convincing slander could be mounted by dragging in the shooter's outside gun hobby activities (and a lot of gullible judges that fear gun nuts as much as anyone would doubtless allow it)
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May 18, 2014, 07:34 PM | #16 |
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Not a lawyer, but appeals are based on a process issue and not the outcome. How are you going to prove that the jury was biased on gun issues? And not being a lawyer, is such a political issue on that can be used to reverse a decision.
Racial imbalance has been used but gun views? There are some measures of gun attitudes? You are not going to give a large personality inventory in voir dire, I would think.
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May 18, 2014, 10:59 PM | #17 | |
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Yes, it does happen that people are effectively bankrupted by having to defend themselves in such a case. This is one of many reasons why shooting someone in self-defense should always be the absolute last resort in any threatening situation.
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May 19, 2014, 12:51 AM | #18 | |
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However, understand well that if you threaten or use lethal force against another, even if you believe you're defending yourself, you intentionally commit an act of violence against another human. That is also on its face a crime. It will remain to be determined whether under the circumstances your act of violence may be justified or excused. That determination will be made by others, not you; and it is not automatic. The determination will be made based on an investigation of the incident and all available evidence. Whether that determination will be easy or difficult to make will depend on exactly what happened, how it happened and what evidence is available. Sometimes the evidence will be clear, but we can't always count on that. If the evidence is not clear, whether or not your act of violence against another human can be legally justified or excused will need to be decided by a trial and a jury. Answering those kinds of questions is what a trial is for. So let's understand a few things about a trial. A trial is an adversarial proceeding. Each side has an ethical and professional obligation to, within the framework of the applicable rules, zealously and vigorously represent the interests of his client. And therefore:
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May 19, 2014, 03:15 AM | #19 |
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There is virtually no limit to the abuse that a zealot with government authority can perpetrate, particularly if he/she thinks that it could go their way.
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May 19, 2014, 08:12 AM | #20 |
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There are relatively few prosecutions resulting from "righteous" self defense cases. Yeah, there are some few horror stories out there.
IMO: The person who finds himself sitting before a jury charged with murder or manslaughter has much bigger problems than an extra magazine. 1. The police did not believe the defendants self defense story. 2. The prosecutor did not believe the defendants self defense story. 3. The grand jury or the judge who bound the defendant over for trial had problems with the self defense story. |
May 19, 2014, 09:19 AM | #21 |
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A good training program and putting thought into when to shoot or not and actualy having self defence inmind will pay off in some of these situaions . Take care of yourself and lovedones without being the one that shoots a trick or treater or kid that doesn't know what he is getting into . If you are quick whitted and have prepared yourself for what could happen you could save yourself alot of trouble . If you live in a cacoon and do not keep up with what happens in the real world you could shoot at the wrong time or not protect yourself when you should . What I mean is do your study so you can make good decisions .
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May 19, 2014, 09:46 AM | #22 |
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An unused spare mag is an argument for the defense, not the prosecution, assuming the prosecution is arguing some sort of bloodthirsty, kill-crazy shooter.
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May 19, 2014, 10:18 AM | #23 |
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1) It's extremely unlikely you will ever, ever, need to use your firearm to defend your self.
2) It's even more unlikely that having an extra magazine on your person would be an issue. 3) You CAN worry yourself into paranoia with this line of thinking.... and this smacks of the abused argument of "should I carry my defensive handgun with reloads or facory only ammo"? There has never been a case where a citizen or cop was prosecuted soley because someone shot a gobblin in a righteous self defense shooting & the issue of "what ammo ?" was used against the shooter. If there has been such a case against a citizen involved in a clean shoot then please enlighten me. I get suspect of any argument based on "I heard", "they say", "my buddy said", and so on. Massad Ayoob will argue that no one has ever been prosecuted simply because of the ammo used. Mass does say that using factory ammo is a good idea though. |
May 19, 2014, 10:53 AM | #24 | |
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So the statements about a good shoot are nonoperative. We are discussing when you have won the prize of going to trial.
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May 19, 2014, 11:07 AM | #25 | |
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