|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
June 29, 2009, 01:05 PM | #76 | |
Junior member
Join Date: February 20, 2009
Posts: 120
|
Quote:
If anything, the hotter spark from a 209 would more quickly consume any fuel. |
|
June 30, 2009, 11:03 AM | #77 |
Junior Member
Join Date: February 21, 2009
Location: Elkhart indiana
Posts: 9
|
Thanks for all the great posts and great ideas and good safety tips.
|
July 1, 2009, 02:51 PM | #78 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 5, 2006
Location: minnesota
Posts: 215
|
adamobomb,how old are you?
|
July 1, 2009, 03:14 PM | #79 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Rainbow City, Alabama
Posts: 7,167
|
I ALWAYS remove the plug and do a wet swab followed by a dry swab. I do this for accuracy (to prevent crud ring buildup). As a secondary benefit, it assures me that there are no burning embers left in the barrel.
Using this simple procedure would have prevented the accident. |
July 3, 2009, 01:39 PM | #80 |
Junior Member
Join Date: February 21, 2009
Location: Elkhart indiana
Posts: 9
|
23
|
July 3, 2009, 05:07 PM | #81 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 5, 2006
Location: minnesota
Posts: 215
|
what do you mean when you say the primer was not struck?
|
July 4, 2009, 08:29 AM | #82 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Rainbow City, Alabama
Posts: 7,167
|
Quote:
|
|
July 4, 2009, 10:19 AM | #83 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 10, 2009
Location: Small city in New York
Posts: 482
|
Quote:
Blaming the 209 conversion kit without having clear and precise knowledge of how it caused the inadvertent discharge is an example of a fallacy of argument called "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" in Latin. It means that just because event B happened after event A, it doesn't mean event A caused event B. Just because the tragic discharge happened after the 209 kit was installed, doesn't mean the kit caused the discharge. There are way too many other variables involved that have to be shown to be non-contributory in order to blame the conversion kit even a little. In order to win a suit against the company that made the conversion kit, it seems to me you'd have to prove the kit was flawed in design, and then prove how that flaw caused the inadvertent discharge. You'd also have to prove somehow that the kit was installed correctly and that nothing was done in that process that led to damage which could have caused the discharge. Then you'd have to show that in loading the gun there were no mistakes made and no steps omitted which could cause or lead to such a discharge. Then, because the risks attendant to using BP are well known and well documented you'd have to show that the gun was handled in a way that an inadvertent discharge would not cause injury because doing so is commonly known to be required to prevent injury- and obviously that wasn't the situation here. In all of that lies the company's defense. If it's clear that all of those facts line up in a way that leads to the unavoidable conclusion that the company was at fault, then the suit is legit, as I see it. But any less conclusive lineup means the suit is frivolous and speculative, and as I see it, it lacks honor. It seems to me that taking an objective look at all that's involved in cases such as this BEFORE one "lawyers up" - using critical thinking principles to sort out the facts, and taking responsibility for one's errors- is necessary to preserve one's character and honor. It also could save a lot of everyone's money on legal fees. There are lawyers all ready to take your case even when they know full well that it's a loser, because fees are earned whatever the outcome. And they also know that these sorts of cases are often settled in favor of the unprovable lawsuit when the defendant decides it's cheaper to pay up rather than pay for a defense- the case is settled in the terms of a cost-benefit ratio, not proof. Meanwhile, justice and integrity take a hike and it's all about dirty money for the plaintiff and his lawyer. I think ethics such as that stink in the extreme.
__________________
Despite the cost of living, have you noticed how popular it remains? |
|
July 5, 2009, 09:48 PM | #84 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,970
|
Seems like very good info Uncle Billy!
|
July 7, 2009, 09:53 PM | #85 |
Junior member
Join Date: September 13, 2008
Posts: 20
|
Pellet-replacements in BP flintlock pistol.
Can pryrodex pellets with regular 50 cal lead ball be used in a flintlock pistol? Probably a bit of BP would be needed to bring fire in from the frizzen, but otherwise, can it be done? SHOULD it be done??
|
July 8, 2009, 01:19 AM | #86 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 31, 1999
Location: Middle Georgia, USA
Posts: 13,198
|
Pellet-replacements in BP flintlock pistol
This, a black powder topic, was left in General Discussion (not moved to the black powder forum) because it was safety related and we thought the exposure was a good idea.
If we are moving back to typical black powder discussions, then we are moving to the correct forum. |
July 8, 2009, 07:26 AM | #87 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 8, 2006
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 2,772
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
July 8, 2009, 08:16 AM | #88 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,177
|
Quote:
|
|
July 10, 2009, 07:42 AM | #89 | |
Junior member
Join Date: April 2, 2009
Posts: 381
|
Quote:
I often wonder how someone could win a lawsuit like that, because the 2 guys were there alone, for all we know the gun was capped and cocked, and went off naturally- and a story could be cooked up to cover that fact, and the 2 guys could split the money proceeds from the lawsuit. That seems very dubious to me. Just my intuition, but yes it happens. when I'm loading my c/b pistols, I often wonder, while pouring powder in, what if there's a hot ember in there ? It could light the powder stream pouring from the flask, and detonate the entire flask in your hand, while pouring powder in the cylinders. that's why the cannons back in the day, swabbed the bore with a damp ramrod, to put out any embers first, before reloading |
|
July 10, 2009, 09:42 AM | #90 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,177
|
Quote:
|
|
July 10, 2009, 12:45 PM | #91 | |
Member
Join Date: September 10, 2002
Posts: 57
|
Quote:
|
|
July 10, 2009, 01:47 PM | #92 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 6, 2006
Location: Hernando , Ms.
Posts: 579
|
I don`t understand how the maker of the 209 conversion should be remotely at falt for this accident .
Unless the conversion maker said it was safe to load the gun with the conversion capped ... With the walk down range before the gun was reloaded I would rule out burning embers ... Was the 209 cap in place on the conversion when the rifle was being loaded ????????? I have no Idea if this was the case or not ...if there was no cap in place on the conversion say so ... and if there was no cap on the conversion ...why would you think the conversion may have caused the rifle to discharge while loading ???? explain how it could . Glad to hear you were not harmed any worse than you were ... I shoot timed muzzleloader events monthly ......never seen this happen in 35 years of muzzleloading . Something else I don`t understand about this story ,.,.,why were you shooting patched round balls out of an inline muzzleloader rifle with 100 grs of powder ???.......I doubt you could keep the balls on paper at 50 yards . |
July 10, 2009, 06:06 PM | #93 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Rainbow City, Alabama
Posts: 7,167
|
The problem with believing ANY trial attorney is that to them, there is absolutely no such thing as an injury for which somebody is not legally liable. In the case of a lightning strike they would try to sue God himself if they could figure out where to serve the papers.
|
July 12, 2009, 11:09 PM | #94 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 6, 2006
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 976
|
have you ever heard about fire pistons? You may have caused the fire piston effect ramming the ball rapidly.
__________________
If ye love wealth better than Liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animated contest of Freedom, go from us in Peace. We ask not your counsel or Arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. --Samuel Adams--<*ixoye>< |
July 14, 2009, 06:16 PM | #95 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 11, 2008
Location: No Man's Land
Posts: 354
|
I am of the thought that when lawsuits are made that the losing party should pay all the legal fees. If the judge is on his toes and assigns the legal costs to the losing party, then a lot of this frivilous lawsuit business would quit.
__________________
NRA Life Whittington Center Life |
July 14, 2009, 10:16 PM | #96 |
Member
Join Date: August 13, 2008
Posts: 41
|
Kill all the lawyers - Kill 'em tonight
"Kill all the layers - Kill 'em tonight!"
Don Henley in Get Over It, The Eagles ''The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers,'' Dick the Butcher in ''Henry VI,'' Part II, act IV, Scene II, Line 73. |
March 24, 2010, 09:19 PM | #97 |
Junior member
Join Date: October 4, 2009
Posts: 198
|
ka boom
ive heard of people,shooting off there foot,but man your lucky,do u guys use 777 or blk pwder? never have i had this problen ,and i do a 5 sec reload,with powder or pellets.better late than never
|
June 25, 2010, 08:16 PM | #98 |
Member
Join Date: September 15, 2004
Location: Cleveland,TN
Posts: 28
|
I failed to read every post so if this is a duplicate theory please excuse me.
I have a possible explanation of this phenomenon. Lets assume that the only possible cause of ignition was an ember remaining in the area surrounding the breech plug internal tip. A pellet is a solid object and will not readily assume the shape of its vessel. Loose powder will. If that ember was near the threads of the breech plug, there may have been no contact with the pellet until additional force was applied to the ram rod to seat the ball. There by crushing the pellet which was then allowed to fill the area of the combustion chamber and only then contact the ember. And the terrible result. I wish you a speedy recovery. I know this is an old post but saftey does not go out of style!
__________________
as long as you keep diggin, you'll never run out of dirt ! |
June 30, 2010, 02:16 PM | #99 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 25, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 3,309
|
I'm late on this discussion and I have not read all the replies.
I have been muzzle loading for over 40 years and have been active with many clubs, including NMLRA. I once saw an ml pistol, with real bp, go off spontaneously about ten minutes after loading and, maybe fifteen after the last shot was fired. Lingering embers can do that. Did you swab the bore between shots? I'm guessing, no. BTW blowing down the bore is prohibited at all NMLRA sanctioned matches as unsafe. Some lubricants can burn and linger hot. I always swab between shots, even when hunting where time is a factor. But, I consider safety a factor of greater importance. This thread reminds me of a couple others where proponents of unsafe practices brag "It ain't blowed up, yet". I just love the "yet" part. |
June 30, 2010, 10:21 PM | #100 |
Junior member
Join Date: October 4, 2004
Posts: 458
|
Interesting thread. Please excuse my ignorance but from what I gather- we are talking about an inline muzzle loader with 209 ignition. Black powder pellets (I thought all the pellets were substitutes), and a patched round ball. I assume the 209 primer was not on the gun while loading. You waited about 5 minutes put down the pellets- no problem- then rammed the ball and as it was fully seated the gun went off with no 209 primer- is that correct?
Just some thoughts...... 1. I think I may share an ASSUMPTION with others that an ember in the bore is a short lived event. How long can an ember stay hot? Does the fouling from black powder act like char cloth and hold an ember for a long time and would blowing down the barrel do any good? If this has happened ONLY with an inline- does the grease on the threads of the breech plug react with powder residue to form some type of gummy substance that holds an ember? HOW TO PREVENT this type accident is the big concern. I usually swab between shots just to get rid of residue which makes it easier to load the next round. If I swab every time instead every 5th or 10th shot- I feel each shot gets the same treatment so the accuracy ought to be a bit better. In any event swabbing between shots may be a good safety practice. 2. On the thread grease idea- I don't clean the bore before the first shot but maybe getting any remnant of grease out of the bore is a good idea. I figured the first shot would just burn it up. 3. Is there a compressed air issue? In other words, if you are familiar with a fire piston, does the trapped air get compressed and "supercharge" the space remaining which invited an explosion? Seems to me, it is well worth trying to get a definite answer on what caused this accident. |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|