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View Poll Results: What less lethal weapons do you carry?
Baton/Club 1 2.38%
Kubaton/Striking Tool 4 9.52%
Flashlight W/Assault Bezel 7 16.67%
Stun Gun 0 0%
Taser 1 2.38%
Pepper Spray 12 28.57%
Other 6 14.29%
I do not carry any less than lethal weapons 20 47.62%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 17, 2017, 04:20 PM   #1
JoeSixpack
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Less Lethal Carry Options

Ok So I've been thinking.
I don't really feel like im equipped to deal with situations that fall short of deadly force.

Although I really do not wanna add anything to my EDC I feel I need to.
After weighing my options I've come to the conclusion that a 2oz bottle of pepper spray is going to be the best/most cost effective middle ground between bare hands and a handgun.

Im looking to hear from those who have used pepper spray and their thoughts.
I don't need to hear about how bad a choice it is because of potential blow back.. we've all heard it, we all know it, no point dwelling on that.
(Im open to all other criticisms of this choice however)

I would also like to hear what OTHER things people might be using in concert or in place of pepper spray.

I created a poll.
I will tell you my thoughts on each choice

Knives was rule out for two reasons, Knives can't be carried concealed as weapons in Ohio, a CHL does not change this, and they are deadly like firearms.
I do carry a pocket knife not as a weapon though and I'd have to be desperate to reach for it, No real training with knife fighting.

Batons: Seems like a good choice, It might have won over the spray but Baton's are illegal to conceal in Ohio even with a CHL.. so it's no go for me

Stungun: contact weapon, works but would need continuous contact.. I don't consider it all that effective.

Taser: Ruled out for cost.. we're looking at about 350+

Kubaton or other striking weapon: little to no reach advantage I didn't feel confidant with such a weapon.

Flashlight with strike bezel: same situation as the Kubaton, Although I do carry a flash light with one.

Spray: The obvious con is some can fight thru it and potential blow back can get you too, despite this it seems like the best less lethal option.. infact I'd go as far as to say non-lethal, It's also fairly cheap.

Have I missed anything?
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Old August 17, 2017, 05:09 PM   #2
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First to answer your question, I carry both a knife (though I don't really think of it as a primary defensive tool), and a kubotan. The caveat is that I've had some knife-fighting training as well as some general martial arts weapons training. IMO, hand-to-hand weapons, like knives, batons, etc., require more training than a gun, because physically and mentally more is required to use these tools effectively. Without training, these tools can be almost as dangerous to the wielder as to the opponent.

IMO, if I were you I would consider some type of weapons training (or even just martial arts training, i.e., Krav Maga or similar) if you plan to use a Kubotan or the like. Otherwise it's just a fancy key chain.

The reason I don't think of my pocket knife as a primary non-lethal defensive tool is that there's not much training for 'non-lethal' knife fighting. If I draw my knife nearly everything I've trained for involves stabbing vital organs or slicing arteries. And doing so in multiples. So, for example, capturing attacker's wrist, then slicing across the inside of the elbow to the bone, continuing the blade down into the inside thigh, followed by three stabs into the area just below the armpit of the arm I captured. This can be done by an older, adequately trained, average-sized man (me, for instance) in under 1.5 seconds.

I can continue the attack from there, but any one of those moves can cause a person to bleed out. In the short term, I've taken away the attacker's use of the captured arm/hand from the elbow, his same side leg (and his mobility), and if he's lucky just punctured his same side lung. If he's not lucky, the knife went through an artery and he's dead before he hits the ground.

With the Kubotan I can use nearly identical moves, attacking the same appendages and body areas, and producing nearly identical loss of capabilities, but I probably won't have to worry about killing my attacker. However, since those attacks won't be permanent, I'd probably need to continue my attack until the BG either went down or submitted.

In any case, my belief is that for someone to have a chance at using 'non-lethal' weapons in a fight, you're going to need some unarmed combat training as a base, otherwise they won't be very useful.
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Old August 17, 2017, 06:54 PM   #3
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If I have to defend my life I want the bet, deadliest weapon I can carry. I can't think of why I would want less.
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Old August 17, 2017, 07:22 PM   #4
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Imagine someone comes up and punches you.. what are you gonna do? pull your gun? nah, how about a fist fight? hope you're good.. If they discover your gun and you loose the physical contest well... let's just say you don't see cops fist fighting suspects by choice.. Wanna fist fight? it's taser time.

I've come to realize Im not equipped to handle less then life'n'death situations.
Maybe you're the karate kid.. the best around, no one's ever gonna keep you down!
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Old August 17, 2017, 09:15 PM   #5
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Imagine someone comes up and punches you.. what are you gonna do? pull your gun?
The premise of this.....your situation awareness is defective....and yes...I will pull a gun....in my state that is my right.....and the perps bad decision
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Old August 17, 2017, 10:18 PM   #6
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OBVIOUSLY that comment was not meant for you Roa, With your legendary Chuck like awareness.. they will never catch you slipin.. As for the rest of us mere mortals that occasionally make a mistake.. Situation might be a little different.
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Old August 17, 2017, 10:22 PM   #7
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Grappling or fending off an attacker requires strength, skill (as in real training), and a willingness or lack of care of being injured in the melee. Even people who have extensive training in hand-to-hand or weapons use prefer the most advanced weapon they can lay hands on. That pretty much says "gun". Firearms take you out of the trained fighter category and put you into the shooter category. The old saying "God made men, but Colt made them equal" has a lot of truth in it, firearms are an equalizer in that you are no longer relying on physical strength or training. If you are willing to take the risk of being injured or overpowered by an assailant, then whatever weapon you use is up to you. If not, arm yourself.
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Old August 17, 2017, 10:26 PM   #8
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Even pepper spray carries certain legal pitfalls.
Such as why did you stand and use pepper spray instead of walking away. You obviously didn't feel your life in imemint danger.

I remember years ago you could buy CS teargas as a carry spray.
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Old August 17, 2017, 11:43 PM   #9
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Most fights don't end with 1 punch unless you get knocked out.
You'll probably have a hard time just walking away.. but I guess every situation is different.

Ok so someone punched me, Im able to back away, But they advance towards me, I draw my gun and kill them, The BG is unarmed.. now what?

I remember a few black friday's back a women pepper sprayed half the crowd at a target.. or walmart.. so she could get the limited quantity door buster, anyway nothing happen to her.

Im not saying pepper spray should be used to secure Christmas gifts but I gotta think pepper spray is gonna come in somewhere lower in the scale of severity as a body in the morgue.

In my above scenario if I could find a way to dissuade them from continuing their attack and everyone lives seems like the best outcome, It ain't always gonna go down that way but I'd like the option available.. something more then fist or gun.
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Old August 18, 2017, 04:40 AM   #10
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tools

When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail.

Perhaps a better phrase from the OP is not less than lethal, but intermediate weapon. Having some type of intermediate weapon in your SD plan is another tool in the tool box. You cannot solve all SD by simply producing a firearm and believing the situation will defuse, or shoot your way out of it.

One useful item, and somewhat low key, is a stout walking stick or cane. I once worked a case where a 25 yr old thug was harrassing a highschool age girl and her 13 yr old brother. Thug, adorned in leather MC jacket and full face helmet, produced a pocket knife as the situation escalated. The 13 yr old kid picked up a piece of driftwood and clobbered the offender across the forearm waving the knife......broke both bones. We located the offender that night via ER records, and charged him the next day. The kid had no training, but wielding the stick was very instinctive, and gave him significant reach over the thug.
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Old August 18, 2017, 12:03 PM   #11
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Kimber pepper blaster nowadays. Never had to use it, but did use some police issue green pepperspray foam on a punk that called my (ex) wife a bitch in a movie theater and invited me to fight him. It was actually pretty effective, but I did not study it in detail as I grabbed her hand and we were out the exit door before the ruckus began.

I'm tempted to start carrying my collapsible baton again.
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Old August 18, 2017, 12:14 PM   #12
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Hagar I can't carry a Baton concealed in my state.
Im curious though do you think the Baton is a better choice then the pepper spray or you'd just like both?

I had heard good things about the pepper blaster there is just 2 things I found wrong with it.
1. Is it's a bit costly compared to other solutions (around $50) and far as I know not re-loadable.
2. You only get 2 shots and they don't come out in stream so you gotta aim well.

I also looked at the Mace brand pepper gun, these run between 30-40 and are re-loadable.
They claim 20ft and from the tests I've seen that's just about true.
Problem with them is they're quite large.. I mean FAT so concealment is kinda a pain from what people said.. also apparently they tend to leak once used but that's less of a issue.

The spray im looking at is 2oz bottle with a flip top.. Flip tops was recommended to me because they're easier to index then the swivel tops.
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Old August 18, 2017, 12:23 PM   #13
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Situational Awareness, or as an instructor said, 'be aware, and carry a bit of paranoia'.
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Old August 18, 2017, 01:50 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXAZ View Post
Situational Awareness, or as an instructor said, 'be aware, and carry a bit of paranoia'.
Hadn't thought of that.. I guess there is no need for the gun either then.
Wish someone would have told me about this years ago
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Old August 18, 2017, 05:24 PM   #15
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Joesixpack, it seems that most of your votes are for carrying a gun. And of those you post some form of objection but not so much so for those that did not choose the gun option. I really don't care why but your response to be is hardly logical. I have a gun so I don't need to be "the Karate Kid". I have a gun and am 61 years old so I'm not going to let a punk beat me up. I consider him a deadly threat that can severely injure or kill me so again, back to the gun. he'll never get close enough to Kung Fu me or take my gun. Lots of bad folks are on drugs so I really don't care for pepper spray, I don't plan on eating the dead guy or letting him get close enough to take my gun.
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Old August 18, 2017, 07:38 PM   #16
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Maybe that's because this is about less lethal options.. Telling me you'd just shoot the bastards is not helpful.
Where was all the gunslingers recently in the Gas station robbery video? It was pretty much agreed pulling a gun was not the answer.

Maybe you can claim you are too decrepit and you shot the unarmed person in self defense, Im not joking it might work.. FOR YOU.

Me? about half your age and a big guy, I won't get that sort of pity.
I still don't wanna get into a physical contest while im carrying a gun where it might be discovered (Actually almost surely will, I Carry OWB) and if I get my ass beat I really don't want my gun being used against me or stolen and then used in crimes.

I need something else other then planting them in the ground.
Pepper spray is the best option I've come up with, If it's not effective then I can always resort to the gun.

I'd like to hear from people like Hagar who has actually used the stuff though.
If you have a better option other then "just shoot them" I'd be happy to listen.
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Old August 18, 2017, 07:58 PM   #17
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Perhaps if you put as much effort into avoiding confrontations as you do looking for a means to defeat one...you would be better served...
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Old August 19, 2017, 01:07 AM   #18
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Ok so someone punched me, Im able to back away, But they advance towards me, I draw my gun and kill them, The BG is unarmed.. now what?
What happens next depends on the specific details and he law where you live.

You MIGHT wind up charged with homicide.

The legal mechanism is Disparity of Force. And it not a hard and fast thing, its a judgment call. If you're young(ish) and fairly fit, a different level of standard will be applied than if you are old and frail. Again, the specifics matter most.

Consider that what looks like justifiable self defense to you, can look like you "killed an unarmed man" to someone else.

I'm not young, nor fit, and a physical fight that to a 20 or 30yr old would result in only relatively minor injuries, could be fatal to me, so I'm not interested in less LIKELY to be lethal weapons.

I also don't have much faith in pepper spray, because #1, there are people who are not instantly incapacitated by it, and #2, if a blinded snot streaming thugee gets their hands on me, it doesn't matter if they can't see, the results for me would be ...suboptimal..

Pepper spray does not stop an attacker's ability to do lethal violence, it only interferes (to varying degrees) with their "aim".

There are no "non lethal" weapons, only "less LIKELY to be lethal" ones. Any impact weapon COULD be fatal, and even tasers can be, to someone with a heart condition (which they may not even know they have) and pepper spray COULD cause a fatal allergic reaction in rare cases.

Another important factor is how your local laws look at "less than lethal" weapons and their use. If your use of a "less lethal" weapon is seen as escalating the situation (by those judging things after the fact) You might be the one facing charges (assault, most likely).

I have no good advice about the use of these weapons, only that you consider carefully and fully whatever you decide to do, or not do.
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Old August 19, 2017, 09:49 AM   #19
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It sure is easy to imagine that if we just have the right "thing" on us everything will be OK,except for when we need a different thing.
That gas station robbery video thread showed us things escalate real fast sometimes and a couple of punches can make you useless to use your things.

Using your eyes,ears,brain,the hair on the back of your neck and your feet ...and keys,is probably your best arsenal....to disappear.

I don't carry pepper spray,but if I did I'd go for the gel ,not the mist. I'd use it to enhance my exit.Its harder to run blinded .
I'd forget about the striking ring on the flashlight,BUT,I tried shining my 200 lumen Surefire in my own eyes,I was pretty much blinded by two big burnouts in my eyeballs for 15 minutes or so.I'm tempted to get a 500 lumen.
Most trouble happens in the dark,and a blast of light from 10 feet or so might help you avoid physical engagement while you get mobile.

Maybe. It might be prudent to use the light weak hand while your strong hand prepares for the worst.

Another point about "less Lethal" I'm not an LEO,and I don't know much.
Certainly lone cops get into tussles,dangerous ones,....
But I think the use of "less lethal" methods is a de-escalation OPTION, it might be used when our unruly subject is already covered by a backup officer's firearm. "Gee,we are quite prepared to shoot you,but,to be nice,we think just taser will work this time"

As a victim of a violent attack,I don't think you'll be given opportunity to explore and evaluate your options very often.And you have no backup.

Last edited by HiBC; August 19, 2017 at 11:00 AM.
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Old August 19, 2017, 05:14 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
I also don't have much faith in pepper spray, because #1, there are people who are not instantly incapacitated by it, and #2, if a blinded snot streaming thugee gets their hands on me, it doesn't matter if they can't see, the results for me would be ...suboptimal..

Pepper spray does not stop an attacker's ability to do lethal violence, it only interferes (to varying degrees) with their "aim".

There are no "non lethal" weapons, only "less LIKELY to be lethal" ones. Any impact weapon COULD be fatal, and even tasers can be, to someone with a heart condition (which they may not even know they have) and pepper spray COULD cause a fatal allergic reaction in rare cases.
If pepper spray fails it does not preclude the use of a firearm.

If the BG has a weapon that certinly changes things, I would not try to pepper spray someone with a gun.

Indeed the title of the thread is Less Lethal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
Another important factor is how your local laws look at "less than lethal" weapons and their use. If your use of a "less lethal" weapon is seen as escalating the situation (by those judging things after the fact) You might be the one facing charges (assault, most likely).

I have no good advice about the use of these weapons, only that you consider carefully and fully whatever you decide to do, or not do.
Even if Im 100% in the wrong I think an assault charge is going to carry less weight then murder, There is no guarantee how things will pan out legally but Im pretty sure misuse of pepper spray is gonna be of less seriousness then misuse of a handgun.

I have thought of both the legal, cost, and effectiveness of a host of choices.
As I said in OP I've already came to the conclusion a 2oz flip top pepper spray bottle is probably going to be my best choice.

This thread was to see what I was missing and listen to those who have actually used it before finalizing that choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiBC View Post
It sure is easy to imagine that if we just have the right "thing" on us everything will be OK,except for when we need a different thing.
That gas station robbery video thread showed us things escalate real fast sometimes and a couple of punches can make you useless to use your things.
There are no guarentees, Even a firearm does not mean you will survive.
I have given this a lot of thought ever since day 1 of carrying a gun.
I've never been satisfied with the outcomes in those mental exercises.
Watching the gas station video just really sealed it for me.

You're absolutely right 2 punches and that guy was gone, sometimes it's just 1 punch.

Pepper spray may not have helped at all in that situation.. but it might in situations ssimilar but not EXACTLY like that.

I'd just like to have the option between fist fighting someone and shooting them. and right now that's the only 2 options I have available to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiBC View Post
Using your eyes,ears,brain,the hair on the back of your neck and your feet ...and keys,is probably your best arsenal....to disappear.
I agree but this is not always possible.. anyone who carries a gun for protection is a hypocrite if they believe otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiBC View Post
I don't carry pepper spray,but if I did I'd go for the gel ,not the mist. I'd use it to enhance my exit.Its harder to run blinded .
I'd probably go with the steam after watching a video by a cop.
The mist if really effective but also so wide spread you're almost guarenteed a dose at close range.
The gel is good for staying put and limiting cross contamination the problem is it does not run either so your aim needs to be dead on.

It seems like the stream spray is the best all around choice.
That's probably what I'll go with if I get some.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiBC View Post
Maybe. It might be prudent to use the light weak hand while your strong hand prepares for the worst.
That's kinda what I was thinking with the spray.. I'd carry it on my left behind my spare mag.. leaving me a hand for my gun if I need.. I could always just drop the bottle of spray if I need to hold an attacker off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiBC View Post
Another point about "less Lethal" I'm not an LEO,and I don't know much.
Certainly lone cops get into tussles,dangerous ones,....
But I think the use of "less lethal" methods is a de-escalation OPTION, it might be used when our unruly subject is already covered by a backup officer's firearm. "Gee,we are quite prepared to shoot you,but,to be nice,we think just taser will work this time"

As a victim of a violent attack,I don't think you'll be given opportunity to explore and evaluate your options very often.And you have no backup.
That's a really good point, A question for a cop.. I don't know if they do things that way or not.

Still when a suspect is unruly they generally don't go hands on if they can avoid or shoot.. usually gonna be like taser, spray, club.. I dunno does any cops carry clubs anymore? Actually I didn't even think many carried spray either seems like all the ones I see have a taser in a cross draw.
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Old August 19, 2017, 06:29 PM   #21
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Just a comment. CS was mentioned - that was abandoned when it was found that the sprays were ineffective.

Stun gun - the hand held sparky things that looked cool in the gun show. They were developed for police/pain compliance. They do not disable. Try it - it's an ouch. In a H2H class, the instructor would zap us to start. Ouch, you move away. You can't hold it on someone and the initial ouch is just that.

There's a study out there now that says de-escalation departments found more officers were harmed. Some debate about results.
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Old August 19, 2017, 07:26 PM   #22
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I agree about the stungun
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeSixpack View Post
Stungun: contact weapon, works but would need continuous contact.. I don't consider it all that effective.
You're right apparently they no longer cell straight up CS on the market.
Mace apparently still sells a hybrid pepper spray / cs mix
Maybe others do as well?

CS apparently was found not to work on some people on drugs and strong pain killers.
From what I read CS works on the nerves to inflect pain.. Pepper spray on the other hand is a irradiate to the membranes so it's suppose to not be affected by drugs.

From what I've read CS has a shorter recovery time, So really it seems like a strong pepper spray would be more effective.. although had I not read that I would have assumed tear gas would be the better choice.
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Old August 21, 2017, 10:13 AM   #23
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Quote:
Imagine someone comes up and punches you.. what are you gonna do?
Situation awareness, I carry because of health issues have my days of grappling, rolling around on the ground over. BUT if I were to get sucker punched most probably I will be going down (person got a good shot in) being on the ground and still conscious if at all possible I will draw.
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Old August 21, 2017, 10:33 AM   #24
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"real" CS is nasty stuff. The Army used it to flush Viet Cong from tunnels. Didn't really work well, for that. Turned out that in high concentrations, the "flushing" was more "dying". Which, while the Army didn't mind killing, wasn't the mission statement, so they quit using it, for that.

The Army regularly gassed its own soldiers. Been there, done that, remember the burn.....,

And, speaking of burn, under the right conditions, CS will burn, releasing cyanide gas. Ask the Branch Davidians about that,...but don't expect any answer...

As to the "sparky things" only causing pain, it depends on the sparky thing. They run from the level of cattle prods on up to much more powerful devices. I watched a 300lb+ guy zap himself on the leg, to see just how bad it was.

He did a really good imitation of a fish out of water, slithered out of his chair to the floor and flopped about for what seemed like minutes, but was really much less time, maybe half a minute or so. don't know the exact thing he used to zap, it was decades ago, but I do remember, he said it wasn't PAIN that caused him to do that. It sure did hurt, afterwards, but it wasn't the pain, it was the electricity.
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Old August 21, 2017, 05:41 PM   #25
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I carry a .38 Special instead of a .45 sometimes.
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