1911 problems

Mike Silverton · November 22, 2016, 09:49 AM

I have a 1911 .45 that on occasion fails to cock the hammer fully after a round is fired. Last time out to the range, I fired 96 rounds and had four half-cock failures. Another, less frequent problem is a simultaneous double-fire with one trigger squeeze -- and I don't think it has anything to do with my trigger technique. I prefer not to identify the gun at present. Suffice that it's in the $1500 region and has had good reviews. Regards, and if you can, tell me what you think about this. Mike Silverton / [email protected]

PS -- it's been back once already for these issues. Nothing solved.

g.willikers · November 22, 2016, 09:54 AM

It could be more of a hammer follow problem than a failure to cock.
Might be a sear to hammer gun smithing error.
You might want to have it looked at before it gets worse, like going full auto.

Targa · November 22, 2016, 09:55 AM

It would be going back again if it were mine

Jim Watson · November 22, 2016, 10:00 AM

If the warranty clerk couldn't fix it the first time, what makes you think he will the second?
I would seek out a 1911 specialist gunsmith and get it FIXED, even though it cost.

Or you could see how far up the management pyramid you could go. The owner might walk your gun through the shop.

Sarge · November 22, 2016, 10:00 AM

With those two symptoms it almost has to be a sear/fullcock notch problem and a bad one, at that. The pistol is dangerous in its present condition. Handle it carefully. Find a safe direction for the muzzle, make sure it's unloaded and call the manufacturer for shipping label.

Targa · November 22, 2016, 10:09 AM

Quote:

If the warranty clerk couldn't fix it the first time, what makes you think he will the second?

If they can't fix it, probably time to ask for a refund and tell them to keep it don't you think?

Jim Watson · November 22, 2016, 01:07 PM

Refunds are pretty rare. I got one once on a foreign gun that went through the importer's shop and then sent back to the Old Country with no resolution.

T. O'Heir · November 22, 2016, 01:15 PM

Doubling and half cock failures sounds like a sear issue. Very light trigger?
What ammo? What weight return spring? That might be a cause.

Old Bill Dibble · November 22, 2016, 01:49 PM

Send it back for warranty service. Whoever made it sent it out the door with a factory defect. No company is perfect.

Jim Watson · November 22, 2016, 05:39 PM

Quote:

PS -- it's been back once already for these issues. Nothing solved.

So what do you think they will do different the next time?
Maybe if, as I said, you could get the attention of the owner.
Otherwise, suck it up and pay a real gunsmith.

Scorch · November 22, 2016, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Doubling and half cock failures sounds like a sear issue

Yes, usually a sear spring issue after someone tries to "give it a trigger job". The easy way to check is to buy a new sear spring and put it in the gun and see if it still happens. But either way, it needs to see a smith, someone familiar with 1911s.

RickB · November 22, 2016, 06:38 PM

It could also be a misadjusted overtravel screw, but you'd think that would have been checked when it was serviced the first time.

Dixie Gunsmithing · November 22, 2016, 09:23 PM

Scorch is spot on, and I would check the disconnector to see if it is operating correctly. The slide operates the disconnector as soon as it is fired, mashing it down. That should keep the trigger from interacting with the sear (disconnect it), and allow the sear to catch the hammer each time. It is definitely something to do with the sear and disconnector assembly.

HiBC · November 22, 2016, 11:00 PM

OK,I get it that you sent it back without any improvement.That is disappointing.
You say it was a $1500 gun.

There are the hourly employees,who may be excellent,or mediocre.They likely are responsible.

But then there is the entrepreneur who has his name on the product.Reputation matters.And product liability matters.The condition you describe can kill someone.I suggest the following:

First,Red Tag the gun.Its out of service.Period.

Next,change NOTHING.Make NO ATTEMPT to fix it.

For two good reasons.One,you monkey with it,its yours.They then owe you nothing.To them,it has been tampered with,and they hear ALL the stories,true or not.

Second,you spoil the trail.To diagnose the problem,they need to read the tracks.Any change will mislead them.

Next,you have to get the attention of the right person.Someone personally responsible for the business.Tell them their Quality has an issue,customer service let you down,and the gun is a liability.
Go to the website,get a "contact",and try to get to management OR upper level sales.
Sales will be interested because a half million dollars of advertising can be scrapped over a 1500 dollar bad gun and an unhappy customer.

A phone conversation is good to work out details,but then explain to them you want to create a document trail.Ask for an addess to send an e-mail detailing exactly the problem,your actions,and your lack of satisfaction.

Then boldly put your Attorney's name as a recipient of the e-mail,and the CEO of the company.

That ought to do it.

Hunter Customs · November 23, 2016, 09:53 AM

After reading about the problem one of the first things I would look at would be the sear spring, the reason for this is because the gun does this intermittently.

The slot in the frame that the sear spring tab fits in may be to large for the tab, thus letting the sear spring drift or tilt to the left while firing.
Once the spring drifts or tilts far enough to the left it will slip off the sear allowing the gun to drop to the safety catch (half cock notch) on the hammer or miss the safety catch and double fire.

Whatever the cause is the gun needs to be fixed before the OP starts using it again.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter

**Unclenick** · November 23, 2016, 02:21 PM

Yes, there was that funny case awhile back where the ATF got someone found guilty of illegally possessing a full auto weapon when he lent a gun (in his case an AR, IIRC) known to double or triple occasionally to a friend and someone at the range reported him for having a full auto weapon.

Sear spring or too little or improperly set up engagement geometry. Both are caused by overly ambitious or inexperienced trigger job work.

mulespurs · November 24, 2016, 11:22 PM

My 1911 did just what yours sounds like after some home trigger work and a lot of rounds.
I replaced sear, hammer, disconnecter, hammer spring and sear spring.
All came in a kit from Egw as I recall. Works good now, starting on the next 10,000 rounds.

**44 AMP** · November 25, 2016, 11:48 AM

Quote:

guilty of illegally possessing a full auto weapon when he lent a gun (in his case an AR, IIRC) known to double or triple occasionally to a friend and someone at the range reported him for having a full auto weapon.

Yes, and the guy was found guilty, because he was guilty. And the reason he was guilty is this.. known to double or triple occasionally!!!!

Specifically, its the "known" part that made it a crime. If a gun fires more than one round per one pull of the trigger, then it is, legally, a machinegun. The law does not make any exceptions.

HOWEVER, the ATF still has the decent common sense not to prosecute honest malfunctions. If your semi fires doubles, triples or dumps the whole magazine, it doesn't matter, it IS a malfunction. The gun is BROKEN, unsafe, and needs repair.

BUT, if YOU DON'T get it fixed, (and/or if there is evidence that you caused the malfunction deliberately, to get FA fire), then that is evidence against you, proving that you deliberately intended to break the law!

And for that, you WILL be prosecuted, and very likely, found guilty!

And yes, that could happen with you and your 1911. Not likely, but not outside the extreme edge of possibility, if you do the wrong things (like knowingly keep a gun that fires full auto, and is not legally registered as such)

That is one lottery you do not want to win!!!

DO NOTHING TO YOUR 1911A1, but contact the maker and send it back to them. Send it back AS MANY TIMES AS IT TAKES to get it fixed correctly!!!

No, it shouldn't take more than one trip, but stuff happens, and two, or even three returns is not unheard of. The point here is that THEY NEED TO FIX IT (NOT YOU!).

CYA. DO not "tamper" with the gun in any way. DO NOT "fix" it yourself, OR have a local smith do it, UNLESS you are happy to void the warranty.

Be polite. Be friendly. Tell them how much you like the product (how you own several of their guns, IF you do, but don't lie about it, or anything else). GO UP their food chain as needed, even to the VP or CEO, if you don't get satisfaction. And, be patient.

Take the gun out of service. "Lock & Tag" it, so it CANNOT be used by mistake. If you haven't already, DO IT NOW!!!

A gun that doubles or triples COULD dump the entire magazine the next time you chamber a round!!!! Without you pulling the trigger even once!

BE SAFE!
and please, let us know what kind of service and satisfaction you get.

Good Luck!

**Unclenick** · November 26, 2016, 10:20 AM

The lockout is an easy thing with a 1911. Either field strip it or lock the slide back and run a long electrical wire tie from the ejection port through the magazine well and back around the outside, and then let the slide go forward against the tie. I prefer that to locking the hammer back for transport with a wire tie because it prevents a loaded magazine from being inserted.

Note that when 1911's have a failure that causes them to go full auto, most people cannot control the muzzle rise, especially not if they are shooting with one hand. As a result, if the magazine is full, the gun can climb over your head and be pointing behind you for the last round. That's a very dangerous situation, for obvious reasons.

Nathan · November 26, 2016, 12:23 PM

I am 99.99 % sure like everybody else it is a sear spring issue.....or maybe a burr causing the ignition to hang up when they tune to a reasonable pull weight.

Can you detail strip your gun? If so, let's work through this in this thread.

First, do a 1911 function test: LINK

Tell us your result.

HiBC · November 26, 2016, 11:57 PM

I'mpretty sure 44AMP,and Uncle Nick can build a safe,functioning 1911 from a bucket of parts.I can,too.
I don't think figuring the puzzle out is the challenge here.

November 22, 2016, 09:49 AM	#1
Mike Silverton Junior Member Join Date: August 15, 2015 Posts: 2	1911 problems I have a 1911 .45 that on occasion fails to cock the hammer fully after a round is fired. Last time out to the range, I fired 96 rounds and had four half-cock failures. Another, less frequent problem is a simultaneous double-fire with one trigger squeeze -- and I don't think it has anything to do with my trigger technique. I prefer not to identify the gun at present. Suffice that it's in the $1500 region and has had good reviews. Regards, and if you can, tell me what you think about this. Mike Silverton / [email protected] PS -- it's been back once already for these issues. Nothing solved.

November 22, 2016, 09:54 AM	#2
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	It could be more of a hammer follow problem than a failure to cock. Might be a sear to hammer gun smithing error. You might want to have it looked at before it gets worse, like going full auto. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

November 22, 2016, 10:00 AM	#5
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	With those two symptoms it almost has to be a sear/fullcock notch problem and a bad one, at that. The pistol is dangerous in its present condition. Handle it carefully. Find a safe direction for the muzzle, make sure it's unloaded and call the manufacturer for shipping label. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

November 22, 2016, 01:15 PM	#8
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Doubling and half cock failures sounds like a sear issue. Very light trigger? What ammo? What weight return spring? That might be a cause. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

November 22, 2016, 01:49 PM	#9
Old Bill Dibble Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2016 Posts: 802	Send it back for warranty service. Whoever made it sent it out the door with a factory defect. No company is perfect. __________________ "Tragedy has been and will always be with us. Somewhere right now, evil people are planning evil things. All of us will do everything meaningful, everything we can do to prevent it, but each horrible act can’t become an axe for opportunists to cleave the very Bill of Rights that binds us."

November 22, 2016, 09:55 AM	#3
Targa Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2014 Posts: 2,084	It would be going back again if it were mine

November 22, 2016, 10:00 AM	#4
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	If the warranty clerk couldn't fix it the first time, what makes you think he will the second? I would seek out a 1911 specialist gunsmith and get it FIXED, even though it cost. Or you could see how far up the management pyramid you could go. The owner might walk your gun through the shop.

November 22, 2016, 01:07 PM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Refunds are pretty rare. I got one once on a foreign gun that went through the importer's shop and then sent back to the Old Country with no resolution.

November 22, 2016, 06:38 PM	#12
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	It could also be a misadjusted overtravel screw, but you'd think that would have been checked when it was serviced the first time. __________________ Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.

November 22, 2016, 09:23 PM	#13
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Scorch is spot on, and I would check the disconnector to see if it is operating correctly. The slide operates the disconnector as soon as it is fired, mashing it down. That should keep the trigger from interacting with the sear (disconnect it), and allow the sear to catch the hammer each time. It is definitely something to do with the sear and disconnector assembly.

November 22, 2016, 11:00 PM	#14
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,287	OK,I get it that you sent it back without any improvement.That is disappointing. You say it was a $1500 gun. There are the hourly employees,who may be excellent,or mediocre.They likely are responsible. But then there is the entrepreneur who has his name on the product.Reputation matters.And product liability matters.The condition you describe can kill someone.I suggest the following: First,Red Tag the gun.Its out of service.Period. Next,change NOTHING.Make NO ATTEMPT to fix it. For two good reasons.One,you monkey with it,its yours.They then owe you nothing.To them,it has been tampered with,and they hear ALL the stories,true or not. Second,you spoil the trail.To diagnose the problem,they need to read the tracks.Any change will mislead them. Next,you have to get the attention of the right person.Someone personally responsible for the business.Tell them their Quality has an issue,customer service let you down,and the gun is a liability. Go to the website,get a "contact",and try to get to management OR upper level sales. Sales will be interested because a half million dollars of advertising can be scrapped over a 1500 dollar bad gun and an unhappy customer. A phone conversation is good to work out details,but then explain to them you want to create a document trail.Ask for an addess to send an e-mail detailing exactly the problem,your actions,and your lack of satisfaction. Then boldly put your Attorney's name as a recipient of the e-mail,and the CEO of the company. That ought to do it.

November 23, 2016, 09:53 AM	#15
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 2,697	After reading about the problem one of the first things I would look at would be the sear spring, the reason for this is because the gun does this intermittently. The slot in the frame that the sear spring tab fits in may be to large for the tab, thus letting the sear spring drift or tilt to the left while firing. Once the spring drifts or tilts far enough to the left it will slip off the sear allowing the gun to drop to the safety catch (half cock notch) on the hammer or miss the safety catch and double fire. Whatever the cause is the gun needs to be fixed before the OP starts using it again. Best Regards Bob Hunter

November 23, 2016, 02:21 PM	#16
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Yes, there was that funny case awhile back where the ATF got someone found guilty of illegally possessing a full auto weapon when he lent a gun (in his case an AR, IIRC) known to double or triple occasionally to a friend and someone at the range reported him for having a full auto weapon. Sear spring or too little or improperly set up engagement geometry. Both are caused by overly ambitious or inexperienced trigger job work. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 24, 2016, 11:22 PM	#17
mulespurs Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2012 Posts: 115	Just my experience My 1911 did just what yours sounds like after some home trigger work and a lot of rounds. I replaced sear, hammer, disconnecter, hammer spring and sear spring. All came in a kit from Egw as I recall. Works good now, starting on the next 10,000 rounds.

November 26, 2016, 10:20 AM	#19
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	The lockout is an easy thing with a 1911. Either field strip it or lock the slide back and run a long electrical wire tie from the ejection port through the magazine well and back around the outside, and then let the slide go forward against the tie. I prefer that to locking the hammer back for transport with a wire tie because it prevents a loaded magazine from being inserted. Note that when 1911's have a failure that causes them to go full auto, most people cannot control the muzzle rise, especially not if they are shooting with one hand. As a result, if the magazine is full, the gun can climb over your head and be pointing behind you for the last round. That's a very dangerous situation, for obvious reasons. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 26, 2016, 12:23 PM	#20
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	I am 99.99 % sure like everybody else it is a sear spring issue.....or maybe a burr causing the ignition to hang up when they tune to a reasonable pull weight. Can you detail strip your gun? If so, let's work through this in this thread. First, do a 1911 function test: LINK Tell us your result.

November 26, 2016, 11:57 PM	#21
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,287	I'mpretty sure 44AMP,and Uncle Nick can build a safe,functioning 1911 from a bucket of parts.I can,too. I don't think figuring the puzzle out is the challenge here.