The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > The Harley Nolden Memorial Institute for Firearms Research

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 28, 2019, 09:11 PM   #1
DerekB87
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2017
Posts: 13
Percussion rifle identifcation

Greetings guys,

I recently came into possession of this percussion rifle. The owner had passed away and I've been tasked with selling the collection. Unfortunately someone decided it would be a good idea to spray paint multiple firearms in this collection including a remington rolling block, a 1894 winchester and this percussion rifle. Before I proceed I'd like to make it clear that I know nothing of musket or percussion firearms. It was obvious that this was spray paint, same consistent paint on these firearms and the over spray showed on the wood. There were no visible markings on this rifle and the spray paint was peeling off so I decided to take some lacquer thinner and remove the paint with a paper towel...i Know that is probably sacrilegious. Behind the rear sight there is an X and from what i can tell a stamping with "SUWAR..." certainly could be other letters. Please refer to photos. The hammer and lock has some scrolling work and there seems to be extremely faint letters on the lock. At first i thought this may be a reproduction kit rifle of some sort but after going over the stock I noticed multiple intricate wood repairs where someone spent a great deal of time repairing cracks and other dings. I'm hoping this is some sort of flint lock converted to a percussion rifle. Any information would be extremely appreciate because i'm lost. I'm thinking about keeping it if it has some age to it.

Thanks,

Derek

Whole drop box folder:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0tkv4k26d...xLNZNcPfa?dl=0

individual pictures:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/je7it9xr8i...12725.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yo1z3psi7k...12710.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ek19cre11v...12732.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5qkqy5ziet...12739.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xpr85876v1...12747.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j09iktuh9e...12756.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lbnn1l2mdr...12805.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5qlrmsucwy...12812.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1np5sq5dls...12822.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jlegcyokel...12825.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uk292estuh...12902.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ht3z9xk1m7...12809.jpg?dl=0

Last edited by DerekB87; May 28, 2019 at 09:25 PM.
DerekB87 is offline  
Old May 29, 2019, 09:40 AM   #2
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 15,673
It "has age to it", not a modern kit or copy.
Not converted from flint.

One of the many late 19th century half stock percussion rifles. If the markings are not legible, I don't know a way to identify a maker by appearance.

It would take a good deal of work to make it shootable, I would clean and wax it and hang it on the wall.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old May 29, 2019, 12:26 PM   #3
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 11,216
No markings on it anywhere other than the 'SUWAR'? That being Arabic which doesn't help at all.
"...It "has age to it"..." Not sure if I agree with that. Except for the lack of markings. It doesn't take long for rust to do that if the thing was left some place wet/humid.
Looks like a percussion variation of a Kentucky rifle. The "checkering/cross hatching on the hammer looks hand done and not original to the maker.
In that condition(heavily rusted and pitted with unknown origins) it has very little, if any, collector value.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old May 29, 2019, 01:00 PM   #4
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 15,673
Halfstock percussion is way later than true Kentucky.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old May 29, 2019, 08:25 PM   #5
DerekB87
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2017
Posts: 13
any chance it could be a Hawken variation?
DerekB87 is offline  
Old May 29, 2019, 09:52 PM   #6
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 15,673
Not as heavily built as my idea of a Hawken and most plains rifles are iron mounted instead of brass.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old May 29, 2019, 10:55 PM   #7
5whiskey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 3,147
I’m going with a mid 20th century version of a Hawken repro that wasn’t cared for. From what I’ve read, quality on BP reproduction firearms in that time frame was... well spotty at best. While some good examples existed, some poor samples also existed. Nothing Arabic about that styling. I’ve seen their BP rifles in person. They were very much a fan of full length stocks.

I would wager it may have been a firearm built from a kit. While not common in the 1950s and 60s, they existed.
__________________
Support the NRA-ILA Auction, ends 03/09/2018

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=593946
5whiskey is offline  
Old May 30, 2019, 05:32 AM   #8
J.G. Terry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2014
Posts: 223
We were discussing a half-stocked original caplock rifle that may have been made local person. The comment was made that the rifle was an Ohio style rifle. The owner, our mentor and longtime rifle builder, explained that it could by an' "Anywhere rifle."
__________________
Is it possible that some snarky folks go through life with full Huggies trying to enlighten others?
J.G. Terry is offline  
Old May 30, 2019, 10:41 AM   #9
mapsjanhere
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 2,822
Did you take the barrel out of the stock to check for markings? If it's a European based kit the proof marks might be on the underside of the barrel.
__________________
I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.
mapsjanhere is offline  
Old May 30, 2019, 08:05 PM   #10
DerekB87
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2017
Posts: 13
mapsjanhere, that will be my next step. I'll remove the stock and post photos if I find anything.
DerekB87 is offline  
Old June 2, 2019, 08:11 PM   #11
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 20,450
The lock was originally an early 19th Century flintlock that was converted to percussion. It is not a European reproduction. Capbox has installed backwards and throws the symmetry of the gun off.

It was not made by Hawkens, Gemmer or Dimick.

Please pull the barrel to see if there are any markings that are hidden.

If that is an Enfield escutcheon on the left side of the stock, then it is a post Civil War build.

That long tang suggests that the assembler learned in the South.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old June 2, 2019, 08:39 PM   #12
DerekB87
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2017
Posts: 13
4V50 Gary the cut out where the capbox is looks to be an after though. I'm going to take it apart right now and post pics, thanks!

Last edited by DerekB87; June 4, 2019 at 09:20 PM.
DerekB87 is offline  
Old June 2, 2019, 09:06 PM   #13
DerekB87
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2017
Posts: 13
Okay I removed the lock and took pictures before and after i cleaned it. There are manufacturer numbers on some parts. I have no idea how to remove the barrel from the stock. In the stock where the capbox lays there was pieces of wood that just fell out. I just added the photos to my Dropbox folder, new photos are at the bottom. If someone gives me a clue on how to remove the barrel, i'll do that as well.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0tkv4k26d...xLNZNcPfa?dl=0

Last edited by DerekB87; June 2, 2019 at 09:12 PM.
DerekB87 is offline  
Old June 3, 2019, 06:13 AM   #14
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 20,450
There is a pin that is on the forearm and ahead of the entry thimble. Drive that out. Remove the ramrod. Turn the gun upside down and with one hand to catch the barrel, tap the heel against the floor. Do not "peel" the barrel away from the stock. You can damage the stock that way.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old June 3, 2019, 08:27 PM   #15
DerekB87
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2017
Posts: 13
Okay, so I separated the barrel from the stock. The rifle is empty, no worries of a negligent discharge. I have yet to find any markings. There seems to be faint lettering on the underside of the "tang". I am not sure of proper term but the thin long piece of metal with the three screw holes attached to the rear of the barrel. The trigger assembly has no markings on it either. Check out the photos I posted in the same album, again new photos on the bottom.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0tkv4k26d...xLNZNcPfa?dl=0
DerekB87 is offline  
Old June 4, 2019, 11:16 AM   #16
5whiskey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 3,147
I retract my previous suggestion, I don't believe it to be from the 20th century nor do I believe it is European or from a European manufactured kit from my limited knowledge.
__________________
Support the NRA-ILA Auction, ends 03/09/2018

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=593946
5whiskey is offline  
Old June 4, 2019, 06:08 PM   #17
DerekB87
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2017
Posts: 13
Yeah I think this thing is well over 100 years old.
DerekB87 is offline  
Old June 4, 2019, 07:32 PM   #18
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 20,450
Sorry Derek but I can't add anything new. I'm away from home and my library.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old June 4, 2019, 08:14 PM   #19
DerekB87
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2017
Posts: 13
No worries, i'm in no hurry.
DerekB87 is offline  
Old June 5, 2019, 06:53 AM   #20
mapsjanhere
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 2,822
The numbering on the lock parts point to industrial manufacture. Parts were hand fitted for a the lock, then numbered prior to hardening to allow reassembly of the correct parts. The rest of the rifle looks much more "hand made", so presumably a local gun smith assembled it from purchased parts for a customer.
__________________
I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.
mapsjanhere is offline  
Old June 5, 2019, 05:26 PM   #21
DerekB87
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2017
Posts: 13
Mapsjanhere, when you say industrial manufacturing, would that still put this rifle somewhere in the mid to late 1800's?
DerekB87 is offline  
Old June 7, 2019, 06:57 AM   #22
mapsjanhere
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 2,822
Derek, yes, the time frame seems right.
__________________
I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.
mapsjanhere is offline  
Old June 8, 2019, 08:48 PM   #23
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 20,450
Had a great talk on the Hawkins at Friendship tonight.

The rifle may have been made by Abel Shawk of Missouri (1858-1861), Samuel Shawk of ST L. No (1836-7) or by Shawk & McClananhan ('58-61). All were At Louis based. The patchbox may have been added later.

See Missouri Gunsmith to 1990 by Victor Paul.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old June 8, 2019, 10:24 PM   #24
DerekB87
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2017
Posts: 13
The markings certainly could be "shawk". I greatly appreciate you getting back to me with this information. I will have to do further research. Even though this rifle may not be particularly valuable and a wall hanger, I find it infinitely interesting to find out the history of it.
DerekB87 is offline  
Old June 8, 2019, 10:55 PM   #25
DerekB87
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2017
Posts: 13
It seems like Shawk and Mclanahan only made percussion revolvers from what I am seeing.
DerekB87 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09131 seconds with 8 queries