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Old March 10, 2018, 11:50 AM   #26
Thomas Clarke
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Parkland Shooting Time Line Lesson Learned

Thank you for posting the facts, as well as the direction on comments. I see lots to improve in the communications area. The operation of multiple 911 systems impacted response time and command and control response significantly. Radio equipment not in good order, not able to share channels and the school system radios were totally independent. No one on site really had any idea of who what why when where and how was happening in real time. Hopefully all efforts will be focused not on arming the school and creating multiple hard points and scapegoating as many as possible. There should be an investment in the infrastructure so that there are not so many independent underfunded poorly designed communication entities. Active Shooter Training, 911, Radios, Phones, CCTV, Texting, and Social Media as starters need to fully integrated and shared with all agencies. The school, district, community, city, county, region, elected officials, professionals, law enforcement, state, and federal need to look at this and support it so that this does not happen again. The solution is in seeing what failed to work as planned and it needs to be balanced with our rights as Americans as guaranteed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. This is not about a blame game. It is about learning what went wrong and what needs to be done to prevent in the future. Perhaps the Uber Driver needed to know the the actual Shooter was unstable and that Uber needs to be held responsible for allowing the Shooter to arrive with his arsenal of destruction.
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Old March 10, 2018, 01:04 PM   #27
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Great points. A relatively inexpensive wireless camera system inside the school that was tied to a competent school assigned LEO’s phone would have helped.
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Old March 10, 2018, 01:30 PM   #28
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No one on site really had any idea of who what why when where and how was happening in real time.
Peterson should have been fully up to speed in real time, but he chose to stay outside.

Quote:
Perhaps the Uber Driver needed to know the the actual Shooter was unstable and that Uber needs to be held responsible for allowing the Shooter to arrive with his arsenal of destruction.
Sounds like you are scapegoating. Do you know how many "unstable" people public transportation carries on a daily basis? Are you suggesting making public transportation responsible for the actions of their patrons? That is sort of like blaming the airlines for 9/11.

We only have about 100,000 schools in the US. How much could retrofitting cost?
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Old March 10, 2018, 01:40 PM   #29
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I read T Clark.s last thought as provocatively sarcastic....in context of his sound advice to find all the failure points and improve the infrastructure, plans, and training
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Old March 10, 2018, 02:31 PM   #30
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Sounds more like incompetence than anything else. How much training do the officers have to deal this type of events, what preplanning does the police department have in place.
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Old March 10, 2018, 03:23 PM   #31
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IN Broward county apparently not a well designed or trained plan...but this is pure speculation and Monday QB

I know my Local sheriff and Police chief... I a long time ago after Columbine and other active shooter incidents in schools just casually asked.... Tax payer and kids long out of school...If I could see the written plan and review it from a been there done that perspective.... This was not some internet question where either man had some notion the request was from a loony wanting to see the system... to game it

They both got quite defensive and denied my simple request

I know I could force them some how but decided to drop it...

These more and more frequent (seemingly ) event make me want to press a bit harder

I think from all events there are MANY Lessons to be learned.... Why we did After Action Reports (AAR) and meetings after every Mock City Exercise....

I am not the guy who would get on face book and spout off about how the local plan is worthless... I AM the kind of guy who would read and re-read the plan and make margin notations and discuss my concerns with the PD chief and Sheriff

I am very retired and no kids in the schools... so too easy to plant head in sand....

I am also not a crusade type.... but in the Army had zero fear of letting my Uppers know what I thought and why... usually as diplomatically as possible but did manage to PO more than a few Officers who were being stubborn and stupid.... fortunately my been there done that seniority with credibility won the day...even with Butt hurt officers

I do not personally think a lock down paranoia stance for ever school is necessary... but a good proactive active AGGRESSOR....gun, knife, bat, hammer, bomb plan is imperative
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Old March 10, 2018, 05:32 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by buck460XVR
One thing many folks don't know is, most Schools have fire-doors that close automatically, so folks cannot re-enter the building once the alarm goes off.
Wherever did you hear that? I've been an architect for over 40 years and a licensed building official for 25 years. I've lost track of how many school projects I've been involved in, either as an architectural specifier and code resource, or as the code official. I've NEVER heard of "fire doors" that close automatically and lock people out. First off -- the exterior doors on any building aren't "fire doors." Second -- they need to open to get people out in case of a fire. They probably have normal closers on them, but if they were unlocked before a fire alarm they'll stay unlocked after a fire alarm. If they were locked from the outside before a fire alarm, they'll stay locked from the outside after a fire alarm. Parkland is a multi-building campus. The grounds are (supposedly) secured with a fence and dates (that's a separate discussion) but the buildings are not locked because students and teachers move among the buildings.

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The deputy has lost his job, his pension and his image.
He retired, after more than 30 years on the force. How do you figure he lost his pension?

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; March 10, 2018 at 05:44 PM.
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Old March 10, 2018, 05:40 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Mainah
Great points. A relatively inexpensive wireless camera system inside the school that was tied to a competent school assigned LEO’s phone would have helped.
The school has a complete video surveillance system. The problem is, it's not real time -- what you see on the screens is a 20-minute time delay. The first responders went to the system and were reporting where the shooter was in the school to the people in the building -- and nobody thought to tell them (or knew, or remembered) that what they were seeing wasn't "now," it was 20 minutes old.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; March 10, 2018 at 10:17 PM.
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Old March 10, 2018, 08:35 PM   #34
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Fredvon4: I was actually serious that Uber has some responsibility in allowing people with guns to get in to the cars. I posted provocatively it is true because I am tired of listening to solutions from haters of guns and haters of haters of guns. If we are really serious about trying to protect everyone from every possibility, then a company like Uber has to share in the issue. The shooter had a lot of ammo with him when he took the car. We know that the shooter had lots of issues. If we are serious about gun registration and catching the mentally ill with gun registration then we should do the same with those using the internet to get a ride to someplace to do something evil. I think we need to not blame but look and seek answers. If mentally ill people are tagged electronically and not allowed to buy guns, they should not be allowed to use the Internet either, in my mind. We have the technology to do this right. Quit blaming and start looking at the good science in the timeline. If Uber had declined to transport the driver then this would not have happened. It is time for the NRA and others who are involved in banning guns and promoting firearms in schools and what not then it is time to demand that responsible folks sit down and look at the steps that could have been taken to prevent this from happening. The focus is on all the wrong parts.
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Old March 10, 2018, 10:18 PM   #35
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I believe the gun and magazines were in a duffel bag. Do you expect Uber drivers to carry portable X-ray machines so they can conduct TSA scans on prospective passengers?
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Old March 10, 2018, 10:46 PM   #36
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Uber has no responsibility here I don’t think.
But since they don’t want 19yo people to own guns, maybe they’re not old
Enough to take ride service.

As far as the police response goes: I don’t even know what to think anymore. I feel the sheriffs response must have been wrong, even if it was done by the book. The system we had in place, the trillions spent so these things won’t happen... all failed us
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Old March 11, 2018, 09:12 AM   #37
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Aquila, I believe that what needs to come out of the Parkland Active Shooter investigation is a broader understanding of the solutions that need to be explored to better deal with Active Shooters in the future. Everything I have seen on this so far is narrow and not inclusive of all the factors apparent in the timeline. Uber is obvious as it is the first link in the chain. I am an ardent supporter of the Second Amendment. The leadership in this debate needs to be directed to communications including social media, which includes Uber. Our legislators, community leaders, Law Enforcement, communications infrastructure builders, 911 systems designers, handheld communications makers like Motorola all need to be included in the discussion and solutions. The time line tells us what links need to be corrected.
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Old March 11, 2018, 09:18 AM   #38
Thomas Clarke
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Parkland Shooting Time Line

Aquila, to be direct there are wands available that would have disclosed the guns and ammunition in the duffel bag. These are not regulated and not as costly as a Glock 19. The training is easy and with the proper notification would have disclosed this threat much earlier. These handheld units can be very effective.
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Old March 11, 2018, 10:21 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Clarke
Aquila, I believe that what needs to come out of the Parkland Active Shooter investigation is a broader understanding of the solutions that need to be explored to better deal with Active Shooters in the future. Everything I have seen on this so far is narrow and not inclusive of all the factors apparent in the timeline. Uber is obvious as it is the first link in the chain. I am an ardent supporter of the Second Amendment. The leadership in this debate needs to be directed to communications including social media, which includes Uber. Our legislators, community leaders, Law Enforcement, communications infrastructure builders, 911 systems designers, handheld communications makers like Motorola all need to be included in the discussion and solutions. The time line tells us what links need to be corrected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Clarke
Aquila, to be direct there are wands available that would have disclosed the guns and ammunition in the duffel bag. These are not regulated and not as costly as a Glock 19. The training is easy and with the proper notification would have disclosed this threat much earlier. These handheld units can be very effective.
So you want to turn all Uber drivers into unsworn law enforcement officers? And what are they supposed to do if the magic wand pings on something -- demand that the passenger empty his/her luggage on the street and empty his/her pockets or purse on the hood of the car? Those wands don't know if they're detecting a gun in my right front pocket or the mass of keys and pocket change I usually carry. All they know is "metal."

So the wand pings -- what authority does the Uber driver have to do anything? We all love the TSA, don't we? If Uber drivers start going all TSA agent on us, they'll just drive business to Lyte or back to regular taxis. If they do happen to get a shooter on his/her way to a school, trying to do anything is just asking to get an Uber driver added to the victim count.

IMHO, asking Uber drivers to start screening passengers is several orders of magnitude dumber than arming teachers (which I support)
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Old March 11, 2018, 10:46 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
Wherever did you hear that? I've been an architect for over 40 years and a licensed building official for 25 years. I've lost track of how many school projects I've been involved in, either as an architectural specifier and code resource, or as the code official. I've NEVER heard of "fire doors" that close automatically and lock people out. First off -- the exterior doors on any building aren't "fire doors." Second -- they need to open to get people out in case of a fire. They probably have normal closers on them, but if they were unlocked before a fire alarm they'll stay unlocked after a fire alarm. If they were locked from the outside before a fire alarm, they'll stay locked from the outside after a fire alarm.
Don't know where you were doing all of that, but it ain't been around here. The fire doors are not the exterior doors, they are generally inside the exterior doors or in hallways leading to the exterior doors. They are generally always open and most folks don't notice them. They cannot be locked from the inside, even when closed(think panic bars), like most commercial exits and are generally held open for travel in both directions, by magnetic catches that automatically release when the fire alarm goes off. This is tested every time a school does a fire drill along with the time it takes to get the students effectively outta the building. The alarm system in our school has sensors on the firedoors and will give us a code(and a alarm) if and when there is a failure in the firedoor system. There are also consequences if there are items in the way that will impede those doors from automatically closing(and locking) if and when the alarm goes off. They are specifically designed to get folks out, and not let them back in during a fire or other lockdown. They are a tool that can also be used to prevent entry between other areas in the building by an active shooter. We can close specific firedoors from the alarm control panel to do so. That said, most exterior doors on school buildings are also locked from the inside during normal school hours. Again, panic bars allow folks to go out(it's code, like any commercial building), but lock behind them so no one can get in. While a SRO would have a key/swipe for those doors, they may or may not have it for the firedoors. I'm not saying this is why the deputy didn't go in. But it is how it works.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
He retired, after more than 30 years on the force. How do you figure he lost his pension?
He resigned with enough years to qualify for retirement. According to his superior...
Quote:
The sheriff’s office opened an internal investigation into Peterson after seeing video of the school and after interviewing witnesses and Peterson himself. Israel suspended Peterson without pay on Thursday morning, he said, and Peterson then chose to resign. Because the deputy had enough time with the force to meet the requirements of retirement, Israel said he “resigned slash retired.”
I was mistaken, I was told he lost his pension. Actually, He will get $52-70,000 a year plus the taxpayers will cover half his medical insurance premiums till he dies.
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Old March 11, 2018, 12:24 PM   #41
Evan Thomas
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IMHO, asking Uber drivers to start screening passengers is several orders of magnitude dumber than arming teachers...
I have to agree with this; it's not a well-thought-out idea. What, exactly, is Uber's policy supposed to be? To prohibit passengers carrying guns at all? That would be their right as a private company, but I hardly think it's something supporters of the 2nd Amendment should encourage. Short of that, what standard applies, and how are drivers to enforce it? Or are they just supposed to intuit that something is "off?" This isn't a reasonable burden to place on contract workers who in many cases are making less than minimum wage.

These are rhetorical questions. Uber's role is off-topic for this thread, as it's unrelated to law enforcement's handling of the shootings and to the timeline linked in the OP, so let's leave it there, please.
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Old March 13, 2018, 10:45 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by buck460XVR
The fire doors are not the exterior doors, they are generally inside the exterior doors or in hallways leading to the exterior doors. They are generally always open and most folks don't notice them. They cannot be locked from the inside, even when closed(think panic bars), like most commercial exits and are generally held open for travel in both directions, by magnetic catches that automatically release when the fire alarm goes off.
I know what you're talking about. IIRC the reason for these doors is that, in lieu of installing automatic fire sprinklers, older editions of the fire and building codes allowed buildings to be subdivided into small non-sprinkled sections separated by 2-hour(?) rated firewalls with doors that automatically shut when the alarm is triggered.

AFAIK it's been a matter of decades since this type of construction was allowed in most places, and most newer schools do not have such doors; only grandfathered installations do.

I suppose there are valid arguments for installing impenetrable partitions solely for security reasons, but there are also valid counter-arguments:
  1. Cost of installation and maintenance;
  2. Some schools—particularly high schools—have large open common areas that would be physically difficult to partition off;
  3. There would need to be adequate fire exits within each section, which could be problematic to implement in multi-story buildings with a limited number of stairwells;
  4. At least some of the fire exits would need to lead to a safe escape route away from the building(s), rather than an interior courtyard that could form another "kill zone;" and
  5. Speaking of "kill zones," isolating the shooter in a small subsection of the school could be seen as a perverse encouragement to kill as many people as possible within that section, which could lead some administrations and parent groups to strongly resist this concept.
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Old March 13, 2018, 11:08 AM   #43
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Fredvon4: I was actually serious that Uber has some responsibility in allowing people with guns to get in to the cars.
Absurdity. If Uber is culpable for allowing guns in their cars, then business that allow guns will also be culpable for allowing in bad guys with guns as well. Absolute absurdity.
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Old March 13, 2018, 11:21 AM   #44
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Uber. A company that exists by skirting and very technical readings of ways around laws requiring taxi licensing in several cities and states and has devalued that once valuable commodity (licensing) by showing one can sneak around the laws through a very technical reading of it is now going to start enforcing some standards? Really? Each one of their "independent operators" is going to be given even more specific criteria to follow? That risks them becoming employees and not independent contractors which risks the entire Uber business model. Allowing Uber to enforce the law is a troublesome concept to me.
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Old March 13, 2018, 11:22 AM   #45
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The blame lies purely in the shooter, and the system we have in place to prevent this.

The response was the response, good or bad, that does need to be re-evaluated. The response didn’t work, but on the surface it is irrelevant IN MY OPINION, the shooter shouldn’t have gotten a gun based on the rules we have. He was a candidate for firearms denial.
They will probably strengthen the mental health aspect of gun control. I also predict that it will get abused.
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Old March 13, 2018, 11:59 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by rickyrick
IN MY OPINION, the shooter shouldn’t have gotten a gun based on the rules we have. He was a candidate for firearms denial.
While in retrospect it's obvious that he should not have had access to firearms, based on the rules we have just how should he have been barred? He had no felony or misdemeanor domestic violence convictions, he had not been involuntarily committed to a mental health institution, and there were no protective orders on him.

It's probably the latter that could have offered the avenue to disarming him ... IF the sheriff's office had followed up on the myriad of reports that the kid was a menace in the making. But, even if the sheriff's office had followed up, due process still applies and we can't know how that process might have played out since it was never initiated.
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Old March 13, 2018, 12:03 PM   #47
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By this moment, I assume everyone would have seen that HE was the shooter. Why was he even allowed to travel for so long and remain out of custody for so long? Didn't anyone scream out to the officers: "That's HIM...HE is the one...GET HIM!!!". He would have been tackled to the ground and cuffed as soon as he emerged into the sunlight.
I'm betting that no one saw him ditch the backpack and rifle (except the cameras) and so probably no one in his vicinity outside associated him with the shooter. Also, memory and fine cognitive functions are incredibly flaky when adrenaline dumps into the system. Probably everyone who saw him simply classified him as "not shooting person."
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Old March 13, 2018, 02:55 PM   #48
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I’m thinking that it would be difficult for someone to be disarmed in this situation without trampling on the rights of others. To me, he was obviously mentally Ill before hand and should have been diagnosed as such.
He was reported to the authorities for threatening this.
I bet if I called and reported that I had some unsavory dirt on the president from 20 years ago, an agent would be over to talk to me pretty quickly.

It’s not going to be an easy solution.
Either increase security in schools or take all the guns away.
The first solution will cost school districts millions the second will cost the Feds.

Basically, someone won’t feel so free if we solve the problem. Children will feel like they are in prison, or gun owners will loose the guns.

Don’t think we’ve seen the end of gun control. It may take another 100 years, but the US will be AR free. People my age weren’t indoctrinated to hate the conservative viewpoint; today the kids are being exposed to progressive political rants that go on for hours... all the way through college. My kids and some others have recorded what’s going on in the schools I’ve heard it.
They are going to march in the streets, they will be voting next.
Just over a year ago, they rioted against conservative values.

I know we can’t touch partisan politics on this page, but gun rights is a partisan issue.
In the end, progressive ideas (some are good, some aren’t) will win out. Gun ownership is not a progressive idea.
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Old March 13, 2018, 04:08 PM   #49
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I know we can’t touch partisan politics on this page, but gun rights is a partisan issue.
Less so than some would have you believe. Polls usually show something in the neighborhood of 1/3 of one party's voters opposing increased gun control, and similar numbers of the other party supporting it. Similar things happen on other issues, of course, but with different numbers; there is almost never a zero or a 100% by party on any poll question. Personally, I would like to see the NRA become less overtly partisan, and accept and encourage help from all quarters that offer it.

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Old March 13, 2018, 04:23 PM   #50
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Yes, I don’t think the bill of rights should be divided along party lines.

There are failures, the incident should not have happened. It shouldn’t be easy to get into a school with a gun. In the event it does happen, the police response should be swift and decisive.

I don’t know if the officers responded like they should have, doesn’t matter if they followed whatever rules they were supposed to follow or not; whatever they did was wrong. The most disappointing thing is that there was an officer on scene.

Last edited by rickyrick; March 13, 2018 at 10:13 PM.
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