Walther PPK

[Author]

I am a writer of spy novels. In my latest manuscript, which takes place during WW II, the gun used by the protagonist is a Walther PPK. My questions are these: Can a silencer be attached to a PPK? What is the maximum range of a PPK? Can you confirm that the PPK is an appropriate gun of choice for a WWII British spy?

Your comments are much appreciated as I value authenticity in my work.

[PSP]

A PPK can be fitted with a suppressor provided it has a barrel threaded to recieve one. A normal, standard PPK, (or any other gun for that matter), could not simply have a "silencer" installed.

The PPK was popular from the late 1920s, so it would be an available and acceptable choice for concealed carry.

Beretta, FN and Browning made several models that would also be useful to a spy, real or in fiction.

[sirgilligan]

You have to decide on the caliber of the PPK as well.
9mm Browning also known in the US as the .380 ACP, and known as the 9mm Kurtz (9mm short).

Another caliber is the .32 ACP, a.k.a the Browning SR.

Look it up here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PP

I am a bit of a James Bond fan and I know that Ian Flemming was counseled that the semi-auto pistol was not thought of as reliable and that an agent would have preferred a revolver. Flemming did not head that advice.

Effective range, in my opinion, less than 75 yards. That is my opinion, after that the bullet drop is significant.

[Creeper]

A suppressor can be attached to a .32 PPK, but it will require a longer, custom vented barrel. The problem is that, because the .32 is blowback operated there will not be much of a sound reduction in standard form. The gun cycles and exposes unburnt powder, remaining pressure and subsequent noise in the open breach before the bullet can fully exit the suppressor.
Stiffer recoil springs, special loadings, modified chambers and slide locking levers have all been used in an attempt to keep the fired case in the chamber longer, but then you run into issues of balancing those mods against the reliability of cycling the gun. Of the mods used, the slide lock would be the most likely to succeed as it does just as described and can be returned to a non-silenced position.

If your character is or somehow related to the SOE, The BSA made "Welrod" would be the one true period correct "assassins pistol"... at only 72-73dB.

If it must be a Walther PPK, you would be better served using a .22 cal PPK as your suppressed handgun. If you must use a .32, or a .380, consider a gun with a locked breach.
As I understand it, although again, a blowback gun... the Browning Pocket auto of 1922, fit with a shorter 1910 auto slide, will provide around 1/2" of barrel to attach a suppressor. This combination, along with a "Maxim Silencer", model of 1912 or variation, might be more likely.

Cheers,
C

[dahermit]

What is the maximum range of a PPK?

The "maximum range" has nothing to do with the "practical range". Personally, I would not use a PPK of either caliber beyond the distance of a typical room. Trying to hit a human size target beyond that distance with a PPK would be foolhardy. It does not have the sights for it, for one thing.

[sirgilligan]

BTW: A period handgun that is just amazing for its time is the Browning Hi-Power. 13 rounds in a magazine! This is amazing. A shoulder rig for the time would hide it well, and it is dang pretty to behold.

Here are some of photos of my Browning Hi-Powers and my PPK/S:

[Sharpsdressed Man]

I've always scratched my head over the supposed "lack" of sound reduction on a blowback weapon. I think it is a fallacy. Sure, you get a little blowback, but have you ever heard a Mac-10 fired with a suppressor? You have some expelled gas "noise", at the muzzle AND the breech, but for the most part, a well made and designed suppressor gives GREAT sound reduction on blowback guns. Most all .22 pistols and rifles are"blowback" actions, and they are very quiet, too, with quality suppressors. A Walther, let's pick a .32 PPK, as it was more common back then, and put a Walther PP barrel in it. Enough barrel to thread, and the .32 is easier to silence than a .380. The gun could further be modified with a stronger recoil spring to compensate for the raised gas pressure at the breech (as a result of suppressing the blast at the muzzle....the gas has to go SOMEWHERE). However, doing that might cause function problems when the silencer/suppressor was not on the gun, so maybe we'll compromise, and just suffer SOME breech blast. A .32ACP with an effective suppressor would still be quite quiet, although not a PPPPHUTTT, like in the movies.

[Author]

The responses to my question are quite helpful. I am thinking of changing's the British spy's gun to a Browning. Will do more research. Wish this girl knew what "blow back" means. Many thanks!

[Winchester_73]

Maybe you should go with a anachronism gun such as a 44 magnum

[Creeper]

Wish this girl knew what "blow back" means. Many thanks!

The interweb can be your friend. Just preface blowback with firearm operation. This would be vs. "locked breach" and the more rare, yet exceedingly loved by those familiar... "delayed blowback" and "roller locked".

Good writing,
C

[ScottRiqui]

The responses to my question are quite helpful. I am thinking of changing's the British spy's gun to a Browning. Will do more research. Wish this girl knew what "blow back" means. Many thanks!

I'm glad that you're asking the questions; I've seen some very popular and successful authors make some pretty funny gaffes for lack of research. In particular, Dan Brown's albino assassin in "The Lost Symbol" has a revolver with a suppressor on it. While not impossible, it's very unlikely. And one of Tom Clancy's minor characters has a male calico cat. Again, not biologically impossible, but exceedingly rare.

[Sharpsdressed Man]

To be historically accurate, you should know that silencers of the day in WWII were not as sophisticated, small, or light as they are today, and would not have functioned well on a Browning Hi Power. Probably the best shot at historically probable weaponry would be a Webley .32 automatic, as it had a barrel that could be threaded, and would be a logical choice for a useable, British weapon. Check this out at gunbroker, for a lookie see at what they looked like. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=297341341 I think they are ugly, but the British love their own weapons, so who's to argue.

[sirgilligan]

I think they are ugley

Come one, the spy has to have the top tech of the time! And it has to look great too! ;-)

[Creeper]

Originally Posted by Sharpsdressed Man

Probably the best shot at historically probable weaponry would be a Webley .32 automatic, as it had a barrel that could be threaded, and would be a logical choice for a useable, British weapon.

Although I can find no documentation to support this, the Webley & Scott .32 Mod. 1908 would be, in my mind, a distinct possibility for the exact reasons stated. To reduce breach noise (if needed), a slide lock could be made relatively simply.

My suggestion of the British Welrod Mk II as the quietest and most likely legitimate piece may be valid, depending on the time period during WWII that the novel takes place... approximately 1941 or later, or... dependent on weapon size and concealability requirements of the novels protagonist... it may not, as they were, due to the can being part of the receiver, a bit on the large side and certainly not a pocket pistol by any stretch.

Certainly interesting stuff to ponder 'eh?

Cheers,
C

[Author]

It seems my first submission on Firing Line and the subsequent thread have been priceless. Never dreamed I would have had such first-hand expertise at my fingertips. I am indebted to each of you. My previous novel (also a spy thriller) had numerous guns used - by the Germans, the Spanish, the French and, of course, the British. This was during WWII. I used a Webley Mark IV for the Brit. I think where I ran into trouble currently was wanting a silencer for the PPK. Another problem, perhaps the PPK was not powerful enough for other than across the room shooting. The protagonist is a British spy who is an assassin - what kind of rifle would he use if he worked from a distance - he's in France 1941.

Many thanks! Sue

[Creeper]

what kind of rifle would he use if he worked from a distance?

What constitutes "a distance" Sue?

The Welrod MkI in 9mm might be the gun if distance is modest... say, 25 yds or less. The De Lisle carbine in .45ACP was accurate to approximately 50 yds... and has documented use by the SOE.

At distances in excess of 50 yds... I have little in the way of solid information.

Cheers,
C

[dahermit]

- what kind of rifle would he use if he worked from a distance - he's in France 1941.

There are several rifles that would work as sniper rifles. During that time snipers generally used standard bolt-action infantry rifles modified to mount a scope sight. However, they could not be effectively silenced due to the fact that they shot a cartridge that fired in excess of the speed of sound (1,100 feet per second), producing a loud "crack" sound. Also, that is the limitation of the 9MM round from the previously mentioned Browning High Power pistol. If you go with a sniper rifle from the era, you cannot have it suppressed/silenced and be technically correct.
Also note: In may movies of snipers, they fiddle with the adjustment knobs on the scope while looking at their intended target, which is not correct...the scope would have already been sighted-in, elevation and windage adjustments were made by hold-over and holding slightly to one side to compensate for distance and any possible wind. Cranking on turrets looks impressive to the average person, but that is not how it is/was done.
Rifles of the era that could be scoped and used as sniper rifles:
French= Label
German = 98 Mauser
British = SMLE Enfield
Russian = Mosin-Nagant
Swedish = 96 Swedish Mauser
Swiss= Schmidt-Rubin K31
Canadian = SMLE Enfield or if you want to go exotic, .303 Ross
American = They were not in Europe yet, but Springfield '03.

[carguychris]

Here's a nifty idea for shooting from a moderate distance...

Have the character use a long-barreled shoulder-stocked pistol such as a Mauser C96 "Broomhandle", a 1914 Artillery Luger, or a Luger carbine. These guns were intended to fire at targets farther away than traditional pistol range (>50yds). They were equipped with long-range sights and, in the case of the Luger carbine, a wooden forestock so the shooter could more easily support the barrel with his other hand.

Perhaps more importantly, these guns used very powerful and flat-shooting cartridges by the standards of the time. Although they used relatively small bullets by modern standards, the 7.63x25mm Mauser (used in the C96) and 7.65x21mm Parabellum aka .30 Luger (used in commercial and Swiss military Lugers) were actually the highest-velocity commonplace pistol cartridges of the prewar period other than the recently-introduced American .357 Magnum. Higher velocity = less bullet drop and wind drift = easier to hit a distant target.

My point? These guns could be hidden in a briefcase or under an overcoat, so the character would not have to conceal a full-size rifle in an urban setting. They could be assembled in seconds, yet offered a stable firing platform and a cartridge realistically capable of making a lethal head shot at 100yds in the hands of a reasonably skilled marksman. I'm unsure if it's practical to suppress these guns, but the protagonist arguably wouldn't need to; he could shoot from a distant concealed position, then take off the shoulder stock, conceal the gun and stock, and quickly make his escape.

I'm having fun with this.

[WIL TERRY]

Maybe you should study the WELROD before proceeding.

[sirgilligan]

Have the character use a long-barreled shoulder-stocked pisto

That is a fun idea.

Here are some pictures I found of my favorite period firearm:





The 9mm cartridge usually provides a bullet that is supersonic and thus "cracks" and counter acts the use of a silencer (a.k.a can).

But, there is subsonic 9mm ammo. Our sniper could have a "cool" dude that supplies him with special hand loads!

[Redhawk5.5+P+]

I didn't know PPK's went back that far.

[Sharpsdressed Man]

The PPK has been around since 1931, but I don't think it was mainstream in the British Isles until after World war II, when British soldiers brought some home, and they reportedly crept into use as a preferred weapon of British Intelligence (this is where Ian Fleming gleaned info, to later arm Bond). Once again, don't forget the timing. This novel is set in 1941, so guns in common use, or common knowledge OF at that time would be the historical choices. A PPK COULD have been used, but few arms experts had probably ever fired one prior to WWII except for the Germans.

[tdrizzle]

There might have been a few bringback Luger P08s around in 1941 as well, from fellows who served in WWI.

As for a long gun, the protagonist night have to make due with something borrowed from a nearby farm or town, possibly a bolt action rifle or a single shot .22 even.

[Strafer Gott]

Put a silencer on a Luger. Those dang things shoot a hundred yards easy. Put a 147 grain bullet in it, and Bob's your uncle!

[carguychris]

This novel is set in 1941, so guns in common use, or common knowledge OF at that time would be the historical choices. A PPK COULD have been used, but few arms experts had probably ever fired one prior to WWII except for the Germans.

+1. A few historical thoughts...

The Browning Model 1910 and Model 1922 were sold in huge numbers throughout Europe prior to WWII, to such an extent that the word "Browning" reportedly became a slang term corresponding with "pocket pistol" in general. They could most likely be found anywhere and everywhere, unlike the relatively newfangled PP or PPK. (Same goes for the likewise newly-developed Mauser HSc and J.P. Sauer & Sohn 38H.)

Another common and widely exported small-caliber pistol in this period was the Mauser 1910 / 1914 / 1934 series. The previously mentioned Webley & Scott Model 1908 was sold in large enough numbers that it would have been common in Britain as well, and may have been preferred due to the well-established British preference for products of the Home Islands rather than "the Continent". Additionally, the protagonist likely would have had access to American weapons.

Lugers were sold commercially from about 1920 until the re-arming of Germany began ca. 1936. There would have also been a ready supply of WWI "bringbacks". The Mauser C96 would also be a readily available known quantity; although AFAIK it was never officially adopted by the Brits in any official capacity, it was frequently purchased for personal use by British military personnel during various colonial conflicts around the turn of the century, including the Boer Wars. (Winston Churchill and T.E. Lawrence were famously very fond of the weapon.)

Also, keep in mind that during the period immediately prior to WWII, submachine guns such as the Thompson and Lanchester had been adopted by many military forces, but were not commonplace; they were often viewed as a curiosity that might be useful in special circumstances, but lacked the range to be widely useful in a "real war". Part of the problem was that prewar designs were generally intricate and expensive, and budget-conscious prewar commanders were often worried that fully-automatic fire in the hands of the average foot soldier would lead to unnecessary wastage of ammunition. Then WWII happened, simple and cheap designs appeared, and commanders started realizing that (a) real-world engagements often happened at short range, and (b) although marksmanship was a great idea in theory, the force that fired more rounds in the general direction of the enemy usually won, so lightweight fully-automatic guns were a Good Thing. However, in 1941, I would expect subguns to still be fairly uncommon.