O/U vs SxS Shotgun

[stuckinthe60s]

still no answer as to why the browning o&u was invented.............

[FITASC]

You'll have to ask BOSS or Beretta who had semblances of them prior to JMB's Superposed

[Doyle]

still no answer as to why the o&u was invented.............
__________________

To provide a shotgun with two barrels but with only one sighting plane.

[bladesmith 1]

Post 31 was NOT polite. Even after that you refer to tape or a Magic Dots as crap, which is a poor term if you're being polite. You can convey your method without having to criticize someones else's method just because it's not the same as yours. Or you could just state you feel your method is better, but instead it was, what I use is crap. There are Olympic shooters who use a Dot, so it can't be all bad.

My master eye will unexpectedly shift and I fell the tape is my best solution.

I apologize for the manly statement. Your saying you got ill just struck me as being funny.

I did not refer to you in my post, and still haven't, but if the shoe fits wear it.

Maybe " What I don't get is not one person so far seems to have comprehended using the thumb as I described " would tell you something. If you want to do it that's fine with me, I have no problem with it or nothing bad to say about it. And I never did. Once again, please show my post the same respect. Thank you. Paul

[stuckinthe60s]

doyle, a sbs has 1 sighting plane too.

as to my question, I didn't ask who made the first o&u, I asked why john b' made HIS o&u and why REMINGTON made theirs.

[wild cat mccane]

It isn’t known. Probably to make more money.

https://www.clay-shooting.com/featur...ver-and-under/

[44 AMP]

If you're closing an eye shooting any type of firearm you're doing it wrong.

If you hit your target there is no "wrong".

period.

There are methods that work better for some people, some that work better for most people, and some of those don't work well for some people.

No matter what style they use, if it works, its not wrong. Telling people they are wrong when they aren't is what's "wrong".

I close my left eye when shooting. EVERY TIME, no matter what I'm shooting. And it works for me. Shooting with both eyes open screws things up for me. Apparently, I'm not the same as "most people" and I don't try to be. I'm me, and I do what works, for me. I generally hit what I aim at, using my right eye, shooting right handed. If I'm "wrong" in your opinion, so be it, but I'm not wrong in my opinion, my method has been working for me for over half a century and I'm not going to be changing it because someone else thinks I'm "wrong".

I've never had an O/U, primarily due to their high cost. They feel like a 2x4 on edge in my hands, so I've never had any real desire for one. SxS feel different, and ok for me, so I use them and enjoy them.

[Willie Lowman]

I prefer the look of a sxs but I shoot clays with a superposed.

[bladesmith 1]

I've know some very good one eyed shooters. It seems like at the distances we shoot it doesn't make a real big difference. Maybe if you were a competitor on national sporting clays events where a lot of birds were thrown over 40 yards two eyes would help. But most local courses and normal hunting takes place at closer distances. To each their own.

Darn it Willie, I learned it isn't how good you shoot, but how good you look doing it. Wouldn't you really look better with a SxS in your hands ?

[darkgael]

Late to this discussion and I have a question. I have read about “single sighting planes” just about any time I have read through discussions about O/Us vs SXSs. How valid is the Sighting plane rationale?
I was taught early on that, when I am shooting at a flying object like a bird, my focus should be on the bird not the bead, that if the gun is fitted correctly and mounted properly, it will shoot where I am looking regardless of the “sighting plane”. This has worked well for me over the years.
I prefer SXSs for most of my shotgunning but lately (advancing years, bad back) a little five pound .410 O/U has been a blessing to hunt with.

[44 AMP]

I have read about “single sighting planes” just about any time I have read through discussions about O/Us vs SXSs. How valid is the Sighting plane rationale?

It is entirely valid, for every firearm, however it is also often misunderstood.

It is simply the line your eye looks down when sighting. Shooting with sights, the line goes from your eye through both sights to the target. With a shotgun its the same, principle, but a more coarse application. You look along the top of the gun (down the barrel with single barrel guns or O/U) over the bead to the target.

One does not focus on the sight (bead) the way you focus on open sights, you look along the sighting plane with focus on the target and the bead is your "muzzle reference indicator"

Arguments about the superiority of the Single Sighting Plane come from people who, for reasons I cannot fathom, think that when using a SxS there are two sighting planes because there are two barrels. I see only a single sighting plane when shooting SxS guns, and its between the barrels where the bead is. (often on a rib).

I've never heard anyone argue over the sighting plane of a double rifle, which are nearly all SxS. I see no significant difference between them and SxS shotguns as far as the basics of aiming are concerned.

[44caliberkid]

Side by sides have a single sighting plane, down the rib and bead. People are different, different things work for different people. It is possible some folks can't focus on the single plane of a SxS quickly, in a hunting or target shooting situation, so they prefer a O/U. Or perhaps you just like the aesthetics of one over another, both designs are tried and tested over many years. There isn't really a right or wrong choice, till we start talking about quality.
The OP initially stated he was looking for a coach gun, so a short barreled, defensive shotgun. Most of them made these days are Turkish, Spanish or Italian guns, and aren't particularly pricey, if you could find one. I have a Turkish, hammered double that I use for CAS, but I got the 28 inch barrels so I could use it for hunting too. But I'm sure a gunsmith could cut it to whatever length you want and remount the bead for a $100 bill or less, and the standard length barrels might still be in stock. This holds true for any old Stevens or other American made SxS, Shotguns are pretty easily modified/ personalized to fit the owner, so widen your view a little. I've seen a sawed off O/U in a movie once, and it looked pretty cool (pistol grip too) so an O/U shorten to legal length would make just as good a defensive, two shot arm , as a SxS.
My Turkish SxS has been a great gun, but we bought a new TriStar O/U for a grandson to use on the high school trap team. It made it through the season, then broke beyond repair at the State tournament. Even the factory couldn't fix it and sent back a new gun, which his dad promptly traded for something else.

[bamaranger]

Sorry guys, I think I kicked the ant hill w/ my post about cross dominance and SXS shotguns. I was simply relating my Dad's experience and attitude towards a SXS he shot briefly for a while. I've not hunted a SXS enough to form an opinion, but I have a Lanber O/U that I shot a bit and with which I did quite well.

I like the idea of instant choke selection, whether with triggers or a safety/selector. But on flushing game, I have not shot either enough to be able to claim I always pick the correct barrel on the flush. I do a some better on pass shooting.

As some folks may know, my passion is spring gobbler hunting. I hunt a pump nearly always, but have thought for a good many years that the perfect turkey gun may be a selective double, one barrel turkey super full, the other modified, to allow a more open choke on really close gobblers coming to call or decoys. One could vary shot size and loads too, larger shot, 3" premium turkey load in the tight barrel , smaller shot with a field load or short mag in the more open choke. A #5 and #7-1/2 combo might really be something. The compact receiver of a double would allow a 26" barreled gun to have a shorter overall length than a 24" pump or auto, and just a wee bit longer than a 20-21" barreled pump. In a sub gauge, 16 or 20, it will likely be a good bit lighter too.

[44 AMP]

There are as many possible combinations as there are shooters and guns and style.

What is important is shooting enough to know where the gun hits for you.

I have my Grandfather's Ithaca 12ga SxS that he bought new, and to his order in 1909. 26" barrels choked Full/Full. Stock made to his order with a bit more drop than is common.

Because of the gun's fit when I shoot it, putting the bead on the bird results in a miss. Putting the bead a certain distance under the bird nails it. Once I learned that, I became a decent shot with it.

Each of us is different, our builds and the way we look down the barrel(s). Practice while wearing what you will wear hunting. Summer shooting in a t-shirt and fall in a heavy coat can make a difference.

[FITASC]

44
Why not make the stock fit you?

[44 AMP]

44
Why not make the stock fit you?

I figured someone would ask that...

Why not? because its a family heirloom, its been in my family for 112 years, in exactly the same configuration the way he ordered it. I'm not touching the stock or any other part of the gun. I can't explain it really well, but its not my gun, its just in my care for a while and in 20some years will be passed to my grandson (through my son most likely but from me, if I'm still around). The old man took me out with that gun a few times and later I got to borrow it when ever I wished but I didn't get to keep it, until after I turned 25.

Those were his rules and wise they turned out to be.

I have a number of other shotguns, which are mine and can mod them if I wish, but that gun is HIS and will be HIS as long as i am alive to remember him.

For me, memory lives in that gun, more and stronger than any photograph. Its something real, just as real as the wood and steel.

So, no "fitting the gun to me" with that one, I hope you understand why.

[stuckinthe60s]

rich people with deep pockets get guns fitted.
common people adapt to the gun.
kudos on not touching it.
even if youre rich....don't touch it.

with a little trial and error, id bet a dollar to a donut there are more people in America that (can) shoot a gun (better) without having it fitted.

I train in an area where gun fit wouldn't fit in a family budget. I specialize in learning ANY gun handed to you, and learn to make it perform.

I get a kick out of how fit is the first thing people say MUST BE DONE. BUNK.
here ya just spent a few hard earned coins on a gun...and now you got to spend more?
LOL.

enjoy your gun 44. just the way it is.

[darkgael]

rich people with deep pockets get guns fitted.

Nah. That is just not true....at least not only rich people. I am far from having deep pockets. Most of the shotguns that I have are used. The few that arent were inexpensive. I wanted to have myself fitted so that I could get the best out of what I had. So I saved up and went to Orvis’ Sandanona and had it done. I was able to apply what I learned to the guns that I had....mostly LOP and cast and drop

[Don Fischer]

Only one advantage of a SxS I can see to an O/U. SxS doesn't open as far so easier to open and add shells in a duck blind! :-) Actually I think the preference is maybe two things. Looks and sighting plane. Other than the SxS guns every gun we look at and use has a single sight plane. Most people I know when first trying a SxS want to know which barrel fires first so they know which barrel to sight over. SxS doesn't work that. You sight down between the barrels. I prefer SxS's and I'm pretty sure it's mostly I just like how they feel and look better and of course there's a bit of snob appeal!:-) I've had a few O/U and by far my favorite was a Savage, don't recall the model number. Had a Browning Citori but just never warmed up to it so it went down the road. Very good gun though, personal thing! I also like double trigger's but three of my SxS's are single trigger guns. I can get by with either. Lot of people run into a wall with double trigger's and maybe I did early on, don't recall. Nothing like pulling the trigger for a second shot and nothing happens! Front trigger works the right barrel and rear trigger the left barrel. In actual practice between the SxS and O/U, or any other for that matter, Once you adjust to the gun there is no real difference other than in your own mind. SxS is totally a preference thing with me based on looks.

[FITASC]

rich people with deep pockets get guns fitted.
common people adapt to the gun.

Not necessary to fit yourself to a gun; lots of ways to make it fit without a custom stock from Wenig or similar.

[Wag]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

I have a number of other shotguns, which are mine and can mod them if I wish, but that gun is HIS and will be HIS as long as i am alive to remember him.

This is probably the most profound thing I've ever read on TFL, bar none.

Very well said.

--Wag--

[stuckinthe60s]

guns have been fired very well w/o being fitted for generations....
and will continue to be fired in factory condition very well by those that can master a guns quirks.
fitting is just a ploy to keep gunsmiths employed by those that can afford it.
even in the days of expensive sbs's of old, the rich had them fitted, as they would a suit and hat. thus why so many guns of that period have so many different lop's and drops.
but I venture to say that every gun then was fitted by those that could afford it, most likely used it to compete.
I would also say that historically there were/are more shooters that can point and shoot a cheap gun better than a person with a fitted gun.
I see it all the time.
just like boxers in small gyms who have what it takes to be great...just never get the break or are recognized. the world may have champs with fitted guns when it comes to clay sports. but id venture to say there are more (better)shots in the back hills of the Ozarks than on the sanctioned stage of clay competition.
especially when a miss means someone goes hungry.
ive been shooting my stock m12 for decades.
care to go up against me? ;>
this is why at my range I have 5 different games as part of my match.
someone good at one game is usually lousy at another.
yet, more little guys with hardware store guns who can eye a bird w/o technology, win more of my matches, than ata/nssa/nsca pros.

[Jim Watson]

W.W. Greener said the Under-Over (That's the English term and represents the order of the barrels firing in most cases.) was well suited to the sportsman with small hands because the foreend only need span the bottom barrel.

When you are dealing with dangerous game, a side by side express rifle is preferable because it does not have to gape as far to reload. Which would apply to the Biden Tactical Special.
An OU rifle will average more accurate because most of its regulation is done in one plane.

And, as said, Mr Browning designed the Superposed because designing guns was his business and livelihood.

[darkgael]

An OU rifle will average more accurate because most of its regulation is done in one plane.

I wonder about that. Maybe so. I have a Rizzini 90L Express rifle; it is an O/U in .30-06.
The first shot, irons or scope, is dead on. The second shot deviates high and left at 100 yards. At 50, the holes are an inch apart if I am using the right ammo.

[stinkeypete]

I've heard it said that the over and under has a stronger action than the side-by-side.

In these days of CAD design and modern materials, maybe.. maybe not. But a skeet gun might shoot thousands and thousands of rounds a year... and if you look at the Olypics, ain't no one shooting a side by side.

I would pick up a nice side by side in a heart beat if it was light and pretty. Just for sunny day pheasant hunts.