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Old October 15, 2019, 12:53 PM   #26
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Other shotguns (like the Win 97) can do it as well if they do not have a trigger disconnector.
I have Model 12s that will do it. I don't think any of the early pump guns had disconnectors. Not sure, but I think the Rem 870 was the first, or at least the first to make it an advertised feature. Pretty sure the last series of Win Model 12s (trap guns, made in the 60s) were fitted with disconnectors, but I know none of the pre WWII ones were.

As far as getting an ATF letter, no, its not a "get out of jail free" card, in the end its always YOUR responsibility to follow the law. What the letter does is prove that you made a good faith attempt to follow the law. Might not matter, but sometimes the courts recognize a difference between accidental and intentional violations of law.
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Old October 15, 2019, 03:59 PM   #27
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I have a couple shockwaves. If they change the laws it is 200 bucks for a form 1 and about a month if filed electronically. I think ??

No big deal.
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Old October 15, 2019, 06:49 PM   #28
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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't smoothbore handguns considered "sawed off shotguns or maybe AOW?" Seems like I read that somewhere, probably in my collection of American Rifleman magazines from 1936 to date.
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Old October 15, 2019, 08:16 PM   #29
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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't smoothbore handguns considered "sawed off shotguns or maybe AOW?
These are not classified as handguns, they are “firearms”. Neither handguns or long guns, just “firearms”.
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Old October 16, 2019, 07:44 AM   #30
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I sort of thought I understood the convoluted laws as to which combination of barrel length, number of hands used, etc applied. But please explain to me why they went to the trouble of putting shallow rifling in the Taurus Judge and other 410s when they could have just called it "other firearm"? I was under the impression they had to rifle it specifically to keep it from being a SBS.
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Old October 16, 2019, 08:47 AM   #31
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But please explain to me why they went to the trouble of putting shallow rifling in the Taurus Judge and other 410s when they could have just called it "other firearm"?
That has to do with “overall length” regulations. The Mossburg Shockwave guns are over 26” in length. They only make that length with the birds head grip installed. You cannot legally put a standard pistol grip on them. They would be under 26” and therefore fall into NFA territory.
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Old October 16, 2019, 09:32 AM   #32
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So the determining factors are it can have a short barrel if it's OAL is over 26" and is designed to be fired one handed? That leaves me puzzled too. The second link in the OP shows it being fired from the shoulder. Is that just some incidental use of the wrist brace that happens to look a lot like a shoulder stock? I don't think the gun is more dangerous than any other 26" plus gun, it just seems such an obvious skirting of the law that it invites legal trouble.
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Old October 16, 2019, 12:47 PM   #33
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44 AMP
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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't smoothbore handguns considered "sawed off shotguns or maybe AOW?"
They are.

HOWEVER, you need to grasp the somewhat Byzantine system used in "classifying" a firearm.

When a receiver is made, the maker registers it, and the classes are rifle (shotgun), Handgun, and "other".
Nope.
A receiver is just a receiver, not a handgun, not a long gun, just a "firearm".
A firearm receiver is not a handgun, rifle, shotgun, SBR, SBR, AOW UNTIL ASSEMBLED AS SUCH. Even if it can only be assembled as a rifle or assembled only as a handgun.....it remains a firearm receiver until assembled.


Quote:
Once this designation is made, the receiver is, from then on, legally a rifle. a handgun, or other. This determines what can, and cannot legally be done with the receiver, and what laws & regulations apply.
Wholly and completely incorrect and the reason why has been covered on this forum dozens if not hundred of times.



Quote:
Handguns are required to be rifled. If the receiver (or frame) the seril# part is designated as a handgun, it is forever after a handgun.
Nope.
It is perfectly legal to take a handgun, add 16" barrel and a shoulder stock to make a rifle. You can then reassemble into a handgun by removing the shoulder stock. Handgun>rifle>handgun>rifle can be reassembled as often as you want. The US Supreme Court ruled on this in 1992 and ATF issued a Ruling in 2011: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ru...stols/download



Quote:
Since its a handgun and handguns have to be rifled, fitting a smooth bore barrel to it makes it a 'Sawed off shotgun" under the NFA law.
Again, wrong.
A handgun with a smooth bore is an AOW, "Any Other Weapon". It does not meet the definition of "Short Barrelled Shotgun".


Quote:
HOWEVER, if the receiver is originally registered as "other" (which is neither a rifle or a handgun) it can be made into something "handgun sized" with a smooth bore, and is legal (assuming it meets other specific criteria) because its is classed as a "firearm" and not a "handgun".
There is so much wrong with this paragraph I'm just going to pretend its not here.

Quote:
It gets confusing, but there are certain things you can do to a "firearm" and remain legal and unregulated, but doing the exact same things to a "rifle" or "handgun" (and all three could be using the exact same receiver design) that turn it into a restricted regulated NFA weapon.
True.

Quote:
Clear as mud now?
You aren't helping.



Quote:
44 AMP...... The Mossberg 500 with only a pistol grip is a shotgun....
No, it not a shotgun, its a "firearm". Transfers on the Form 4473 as "Other Firearm".
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Old October 16, 2019, 10:35 PM   #34
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Thank you for correcting me, I have removed the incorrect information.
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Old October 17, 2019, 07:29 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by mag1911 View Post
They're following the same route as the companies that make the mare's leg rifles. If the receiver wasn't originally manufactured for a "rifle" they can configure it as something else.

That said, I believe the mare's legs and short shotguns will suffer the same fate as bump stocks the first time one is used in a highly publicized crime.
They don't change rules. They change their "interpretation" of the law.
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Old October 17, 2019, 08:37 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mag1911 View Post
They're following the same route as the companies that make the mare's leg rifles. If the receiver wasn't originally manufactured for a "rifle" they can configure it as something else

That said, I believe the mare's legs and short shotguns will suffer the same fate as bump stocks the first time one is used in a highly publicized crime.
They don't change rules. They change their "interpretation" of the law.
First, understand what ATF (and any government agency) is required to do:
Congress passes a law, President signs it.
-The government agency that has regulatory authority writes regulations to implement that law.
- the regulation is usually far more detailed than the law, but must be guided by the law. (example: The law may say "firearm", but gives the regulatory agency the authority to further define "firearm")
- the regulation is supposed to reflect the original intent of Congress.
-To implement a new regulation or change an existing one, the agency must publish the change and allow a public comment period before implementation.
-Since humans are involved, opinions as to Congressional intent, court rulings, new laws.......all have an effect on regulations.

So yes, "rules" CAN change.

What kind of "rules":
-Regulations. While not the law, they carry the weight of law.
-Rulings. When the law is unclear or needs clarification, the agency can issue a ruling on a definition, a regulation or how a procedure may have changed.
-Opinion & Determination Letters. "Is this a gun?" You ask, ATF may answer. The opinion IS NOT LAW, but merely opinion. While technically the letter only applies to that question or that item only, often it is looked on as a change to regulations........and they aren't. Opinion or Determination Letters are not law, but merely the opinion of a staff attorney as to the applicability of the law AT THAT TIME.

As seen in the "can I shoulder an arm brace?".....those opinions can change.
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Old Yesterday, 01:57 PM   #37
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