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Old October 11, 2019, 06:11 PM   #51
Nanuk
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Quote:
Not interested in your anecdotes. They're irrelevant. The same could be said about bullet XXX in the 45. Again, irrelevant.

It's a general issue about the recoil of a 40 versus a 45. As well explored in the link I posted, they're roughly equal.
They are equal if you are using the same weight bullet at the same velocity in the same weight/design of gun. If not they are not. A bullet that produces 469 FPE will recoil more than a bullet producing 369 FPE in the same gun. I am not naming loads I am stating a fact.

Similar is not equal.

What anecdote?
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Old October 11, 2019, 09:03 PM   #52
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Well, people can talk about the 9mm all they want, but unless one is loaded with really good top level hollow points, I don't have a lot of confidence in them as far as stopping powered goes. But I carry a 9mm shield sometimes when I don't want to carry a bigger gun.
But I have far more confidence with 40 and 45 caliber so I usually carry something bigger, like a G22 in 40cal or my favorite a Lightweight commander in 45ACP.

I do think those 3 calibers are base line, and I will carry smaller calibers like the .380 when I just don't want to carry anything bigger, but I do so, knowing I am compromising myself, if I really needed it, but it's still better then a 45 left at home in the safe. Any gun is better then no gun, but I hope to heck, if I actually needed one, I will be carrying a 40 or 45 on that day. Hopefully, that day doesn't ever come.
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Old October 11, 2019, 09:24 PM   #53
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This discussion is about the highly subjective decision of where/when to decide that a particular cartridge is "too much" for effective use as a self defense loading. The question is obviously subjective, because a cartridge that one person may have no trouble controlling and shooting accurately may not be accurate or controllable for a different shooter.

This obviously means that most responses are going to be based on personal experience and personal perception.

Since we should all recognize that going into the discussion, there is no reason or justification for personal attacks in the course of this (or any) discussion. So ...

COOL YOUR JETS!
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Old October 11, 2019, 10:02 PM   #54
74A95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
They are equal if you are using the same weight bullet at the same velocity in the same weight/design of gun. If not they are not. A bullet that produces 469 FPE will recoil more than a bullet producing 369 FPE in the same gun. I am not naming loads I am stating a fact.

Similar is not equal.

What anecdote?
Okay, so you didn't understand that article. I won't ask you to read it a third time.

Muzzle energy and recoil force are not the same. The are calculated with different formulas.

More muzzle energy does not mean more recoil force, except when you're shooting the same weight bullet in the same caliber in the same gun with the same gunpowder. When you look at different calibers and different bullet weights, things get more complicated.

Let's do some math. Recoil force was calculated for a 2.5 pound gun.

40 S&W, 180 grain bullet, 1000 fps, 6.6 grains of Power Pistol gunpowder*.
= 400 ft lbs of muzzle energy. 4.58 ft lbs of recoil force.

45 ACP, 230 grain bullet, 850 fps, 6.7 grains of Power Pistol.
= 369 ft lbs of muzzle energy. 5.28 ft lbs of recoil force.

The 40 S&W produces more muzzle energy (31 ft lbs), but the 45 produces more recoil (0.7 ft lbs).

Now lets look at the same gun, since you brought that up. Let's stay with the 45 and compare published data for 230 and 185 grain bullets. I'm going to use Remington data with their BJHP bullets, though I'll drop the gunpowder weight since that's unknown.

230 gr @ 875 fps = 5.14 ft lbs recoil, 391 ft lbs ME.
185 gr @ 1015 fps = 4.47 ft lbs recoil, 423 ft lbs ME.

So, same deal. The 185 grain bullet produces more ME, but produces less recoil force.



You don't have to take my word for it. Go to this link and plug numbers in to get the answer: http://kwk.us/recoil.html


Also, the article at that link shows that if you push the same bullet to the same speed in different calibers, such as a 200 grain bullet to 825 fps (165 power factor) in the 45 Auto and the 40 S&W, the 45 Auto produces more recoil. Since I said I wouldn't ask you to read the same article again, I'll tell you why - it's because the 45 requires more gunpowder.


*I include the weight of the gunpowder because it contributes to recoil force. Numbers come form Hornady Loading manual 10th edition.

The actual numbers you end up with will depend on the specific ammo tested. In the linked article, the 45 Auto ammo was a little slower than usual. That's fine, and when looking at that comparison, it was clear that the recoil from the 40 and 45 is about the same. Change the numbers, depending on whose ammo is tested, and the relative amounts of recoil can change.

Last edited by 74A95; October 11, 2019 at 10:11 PM.
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Old October 12, 2019, 12:31 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca
Since we should all recognize that going into the discussion, there is no reason or justification for personal attacks in the course of this (or any) discussion. So ...

COOL YOUR JETS!
Some folks need to understand what "hint" means.

Since people still can't play well with others in caliber wars ... CLOSED.
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