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Old October 5, 2019, 10:18 AM   #51
PA-Joe
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Did you adjust the ogive seating depth on each bullet so that they were both 0.015" or did you set the seater die once and used it for both bullets?
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Old October 5, 2019, 10:34 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
My theory is gear, ammo, shooter's physical technique, endurance and experience level, oh add in a good dose of outhouse luck for the occasional holy <insert 4 letter word of choice here> ! group
That sub 2" 40-shot group back in 1971 was shot from a rifle clamped in a free recoiling accuracy cradle. Exactly like this one belonging to David Tubb.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/1278722...093714/detail/

Ten or more were made back in the 1960's for NRA high power match rifle competitors.

Last edited by Bart B.; October 5, 2019 at 10:40 AM.
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Old October 5, 2019, 10:44 AM   #53
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Did you adjust the ogive seating depth on each bullet so that they were both 0.015" or did you set the seater die once and used it for both bullets?
well Joe I used a Wilson seater without a micrometer adjustment when originally seating that batch. Once adjusted the lockscrew on the adjustment stem was tightened and never touched. When I reseated all 75 of those loads I never touched the adjustment on the die and it was still at the same adjustment used in the original seating. The only difference was I made sure I applied sufficient pressure so the seating portion of the die bottomed out on the die body every time
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Old October 5, 2019, 12:13 PM   #54
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Bart,

Someone made a rest for a time that used linear ball bearing on a couple of lengths of shafting round. The Ohio State University rifle team coach had one. I'm sorry I don't have a photo. I have no idea where he got it.
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Old October 5, 2019, 12:30 PM   #55
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Someone made a rest for a time that used linear ball bearing on a couple of lengths of shafting round. The Ohio State University rifle team coach had one. I'm sorry I don't have a photo. I have no idea where he got it.
USA military teams used similar ones using that 3 point rest design. The USN match conditioning shop used one testing Garands. 7.62 versions testing handloaded Sierra 190's got half MOA groups at 600 yards in their tests.
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Old October 5, 2019, 12:52 PM   #56
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just goes to show how the person pulling the trigger effects the rifle doesn't it... just like Jerry said. No use improving equipment until you have mastered what you already own
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Old October 5, 2019, 01:49 PM   #57
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Ogive differences , also bullet differences . One is a flat base the other a boat tail . I only shoot Sierra 168gr MK and there are differences from lot to lot . With bullet ogives the seating depths will also change , then how you size your cases from base to datum could add changes in your jump or jam settings . Doesn't surprise me that with the same ogive setting with different bullets his POI is different .
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Old October 5, 2019, 05:38 PM   #58
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just goes to show how the person pulling the trigger effects the rifle doesn't it... just like Jerry said. No use improving equipment until you have mastered what you already own
Except good equipment producing best accuracy reveals more precisely ones marksmanship abilities.

First thing to learn is how to call shots very well. One learns fastest with the least number of shots using a rifle and ammo that shoots no worse than 1/3 MOA.

They're amazed they can sight in their new rifle with 2 or 3 shots standing without a sling. And never put a bullet dead center on the bullseye.

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Old October 5, 2019, 07:23 PM   #59
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Most of the new CNC machined rifles with department store glass can get do .3 on occasion and .5's consistent. Guy at the club shoots a off the shelf Ruger Precision 6.5 CM with a scope that was part of the package and regularly shoots mid 190's in matches with an occasional clean in mid and long range.

Pretty much any off the shelf modern rifle can be turned into a sub .5 long range shooter by bedding it in a $200 Boyds stock and with the right person shooting it

Times have changed as far as equipment but the skills of guy pulling the trigger is still the major part of the equation in my opinion. If you can't read wind and mirage or jerk the trigger or can't keep a consistent cheek weld a rifle that shoots .1's won't do you any good
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Old October 5, 2019, 08:18 PM   #60
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Pretty much any off the shelf modern rifle can be turned into a sub .5 long range shooter by bedding it in a $200 Boyds stock and with the right person shooting it.
Benchrest long range aggregate record's groups won't all fit inside a half MOA.

Off the shelf rifles won't cut that mustard. That's all shots inside half MOA 800 yards and further to 1000.

Last edited by Bart B.; October 5, 2019 at 08:25 PM.
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Old October 5, 2019, 09:18 PM   #61
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I thought BR guys measured their groups with microscopes. There is one local next weekend, I might go watch it just for grins
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Old October 5, 2019, 10:10 PM   #62
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Benchrest rule books state how groups are measured. Download them from their association web sites.
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Old October 7, 2019, 12:12 PM   #63
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Thought of this thread as I loaded 30 rounds of 6.0 Creedmoor with 107 grain Sierra Match Kings. Seated with Forster micrometer die on my new Lee Turret press. I checked all 30 using a Hornady gage on Starrett 120A calipers and all 30 were within .001 base to ogive
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Old October 7, 2019, 06:46 PM   #64
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Long rang records

https://internationalbenchrest.com/a...20Harshman.pdf
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Old October 7, 2019, 08:22 PM   #65
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yeah I read the story on the 1000 yard match on another site. Even the guy who shot that .1 was amazed at that group
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Old October 7, 2019, 08:53 PM   #66
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Those 1000 yard record's 10-group aggregate sizes listed in post #64 best define the accuracy one can count on once in a while. All the other aggregate sizes that rifle and ammo shot are bigger. Largest single group in an aggregate record is typically 20% to 30% larger than the aggregate/average group size. Sometimes 40% larger.
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Old October 8, 2019, 01:35 AM   #67
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Bart I bet you could shot small group like this 1000yds.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/b...00-yard-group/
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Old October 8, 2019, 07:03 AM   #68
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Bart I bet you could shot small group like this 1000yds.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/b...00-yard-group/
I agree. One 5-shot group out of several hundred has a good chance to do that. All such groups are somewhere between zero and several inches. Smallest groups happens as often as biggest ones; once. I've no idea how many 5-shot groups Mike Wilson shot before shooting that record; nor how big his largest one is.

Last edited by Bart B.; October 8, 2019 at 07:43 AM.
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Old October 8, 2019, 07:29 AM   #69
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Last year I did a study on .22LR and their base to ogive measurements. SK Pistol Match,CCI Std Velocity, and Lapua Polar in that order always give me the best groups in my CZ.

Coincidence ?

edit

also just did some measurements on my new lot of 77SMK's. Average BTO of the bullets is .015 longer than the old lot. Seating would not be affected but case volume would be reduced by a minute amount
Attached Images
File Type: jpg .22 BTO.jpg (214.1 KB, 7 views)
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Old October 9, 2019, 07:46 AM   #70
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Bart, shooting groups will vary due to shooting condition as you know. You picked time place for your small group vs in a match.
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Old October 9, 2019, 12:25 PM   #71
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shooting groups will vary due to shooting condition as you know. You picked time place for your small group vs in a match

A very experienced and successful shooter gave me a nugget of wisdom at the end of last season. Practice under ideal conditions to show what you may possibly shoot in a match, then shoot the same rifle ammo etc when the mirage is boiling and the wind is blowing in three different directions and you will see what you will probably shoot. Matches don't always happen on a windless cool morning with a cloudy day.

my last practice day with boiling mirage and a slight tailwind. Even at 200 my twenty shot average shot grew by .5 MOA from shooting the same targets with the same rifle and ammo as I had the week before. That day had been calm and overcast and a perfect morning for shooting.

.5 or even higher 10 shot groups seem common when running with the big dogs at the major matches depending on wind and mirage

Pa World Open Relay Results

Williamsport World Open 1000-Yard Championship match writeup. Beautiful range but that terrain would make for some tricky winds.
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Old October 9, 2019, 10:06 PM   #72
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Bart, shooting groups will vary due to shooting condition as you know. You picked time place for your small group vs in a match.
Of course.

I was testing only the rifle and ammo.

Is that okay for anyone to do?

Last edited by Bart B.; October 9, 2019 at 10:16 PM.
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