Weak extractor in Argentine '09 .308 conversion?

Calfed · March 13, 2016, 06:39 PM

A few months back I glommed this '09 Argentine Mauser that has been converted to .308W. It is very passably accurate, but I'm having problems with the extractor. When I extract the case after firing, the case slips of the extractor after I've pulled the bolt back an inch or so. I then have to pick the case out by hand.

Is this because the extractor was designed for a different case or is the extractor likely just weak?

Thanks for any assistance.

Mobuck · March 13, 2016, 07:39 PM

Mausers are designed to be manipulated like you're trying to break them. What may have be done to your rifle is some altering of the extractor to allow easier single shot loading. M-98 extractors are available and relatively cheap and don't require much effort to swap.

Wyosmith · March 13, 2016, 07:41 PM

It is possible to let the extractor come into the bolt face deeper on Mausers.
You need to have a Drimel wheel that you have spun down against a grinder to match the radius of the inside raised tongue and then another wheel that will fit inside the hook itself.

Grind the tongue about .005" and try it. If the hook still lets go paint the side of the bolt nose to see if the extractor is dragging. (I use dykem blue)
If the hook lets go of the shell keep taking it down until it holds or until the inside of the hook drags. It the hook drags then you have to start taking metal off each one each time
But eventually you can close the gap. You have about .030" to work with on an average Mauser extractor.

James K · March 13, 2016, 07:49 PM

The 7.65 has the same rim diameter (.470") as the .308, .30-'06, 8mm Mauser, etc, so that is not the problem. Normally, the extractor holds the case against the projection on the opposite side of the bolt head, keeping the case from falling until it is kicked out by the ejector.

There could be other problems, but a common one is that someone "smoothed up" the extractor to more easily slip over a chambered round in single shot firing and got the hook reduced too much.*

The only feasible solution is a new extractor; fortunately, the M1909 is a standard length Mauser 98 action, so extractors are available at reasonable prices. Try www.gunpartscorp.com.

*There is a myth that the 98 Mauser was made so it will feed only from the magazine and that single loading is meant to be impossible. That is not true, and any properly made 98 Mauser should single load with only moderate effort.

Jim

Calfed · March 14, 2016, 11:31 PM

Thanks, guys.

I'll order a new extractor and hope for the best.

Calfed · March 14, 2016, 11:55 PM

I think that a "ground extractor" may be the trouble.

I've got several other '09 Argentines, including one that was drilled and tapped, but is still in 7.65 x 53 and has never had an issue with the extractor.

I took pics of the bolt face from the problem Argentine and the one that never gives me trouble....see if you can see which one is from the .308W Argentine that the cases slipping from during extraction...

Scorch · March 15, 2016, 12:50 AM

Looks like someone tried to smooth out a feeding issue by reshaping the extractor (not uncommon with the 308 due to sharper shoulder and less body taper). A new extractor is fairly cheap.

Calfed · March 15, 2016, 09:31 AM

If I buy an extractor from Numerich or Sarco, will it likely just need to be installed, without any additional fitting?

Scorch · March 15, 2016, 03:10 PM

If you buy a commercial extractor, you might need to fit it, but that is fairly simple.

Calfed · March 16, 2016, 12:24 AM

Sarco is selling as new extractors that supposedly are originally for the 7x57 1908 Brazilian Mausers. Thinking of giving one of those a try.

Mobuck · March 16, 2016, 07:09 AM

If the present extractor was ground in an attempt to ease a feeding problem, this problem may return when a new extractor is installed.
The way the present part was ground off may be causing the issue due to the thickness of the edge of the extractor that grabs the case rim. As shown in the picture, this area is way too thick in my opinion. Tapering this edge back and restoring a sharper edge may help w/o the need to replace but I will add that a lot has been taken off the present part so quite possibly even thinning the edge may not fully fix the issue.
I have several Mausers re-barrelled to .308 based cartridges. Most of them suffer some degree of dropping cases on top of the mag rather than ejecting- especially if not manipulated "briskly". This may be due to the smaller neck diameter and shorter (51mm vs 57mm) case length coming free of the chamber too early in the bolt cycle. I don't see this with the 257 Roberts(57mm case length) M-98 I have. Just a thought.

James K · March 16, 2016, 12:04 PM

Replacing the extractor is easy. To remove the old one, pry it up at the front until the little lug clears the groove in the bolt, then pull it forward. Do NOT remove the extractor collar that goes around the bolt. Put the new extractor in place and line it up with the collar, then push it back while pulling up and out on the front. It will slip into place and you are done.

Jim

F. Guffey · March 17, 2016, 04:52 PM

I have no fewer than 30 Mauser bolts; I would not remove the extractor, I would simply change bolts. Then there is that thing about how much difference there is between bolts. I purchased 4 suspect rifles for $25.00 each. I removed the barrel and tested all 4 receivers with one bolt and one barrel. There was not more than .001” difference in the length of all 4 chambers. I sorted through 30 06 Springfield bolts and could not find .002” difference in the effect each bolt made on the length of the chamber.

I have custom bolts for Springfield 03A3 receivers that were used when chambering a barrel.

F. Guffey

James K · March 17, 2016, 08:27 PM

I and several friends once got about 25 Mauser 98 rifles together. They were made in at least four different countries and in several different calibers (7x57, 8x57, 7.65x53, .30-'06, .270). We began swapping bolts and checking headspace. I am sure we didn't cover every possible combination (if we did we would still be there), but every one we checked came in with acceptable headspace using field gauges. The only one that failed the field gauge check with its own and other bolts was a rifle put together by a custom gunsmith who was supposed to be the best in the area.

Jim

HankC1 · March 19, 2016, 07:15 AM

I would first bend the extractor to see if it hold the case better.

F. Guffey · March 24, 2016, 07:44 AM

Quote:

I and several friends once got about 25 Mauser 98 rifles together. They were made in at least four different countries and in several different calibers (7x57, 8x57, 7.65x53, .30-'06, .270). We began swapping bolts and checking headspace. I am sure we didn't cover every possible combination (if we did we would still be there), but every one we checked came in with acceptable headspace using field gauges. The only one that failed the field gauge check with its own and other bolts was a rifle put together by a custom gunsmith who was supposed to be the best in the area.

I had friends like that, now they no longer ask me to get involved unless they are in a 9 line bind. When they needed a bolt they would order a bucket of bolts hoping one would fit. Anyhow, it would have taken me just over an hour to check all of the bolts.

Acceptable head space using a field gage? I am not sure closing a bolt on a head space gage is acceptable (all of them?). Most gun owners would require theory after discovering their rifle had a filed reject length chamber. I would adjust the length of the case with an increase of .011" between the shoulder and head of the case to get the magic .002" clearance.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · March 24, 2016, 07:54 AM

Quote:

A few months back I glommed this '09 Argentine Mauser that has been converted to .308W. It is very passably accurate, but I'm having problems with the extractor. When I extract the case after firing, the case slips of the extractor after I've pulled the bolt back an inch or so. I then have to pick the case out by hand.

I do not know the history of the rifle. I hear phrases like “all you gotta do is etc.”. There is a chance the extractor was fitted to a rifle with a belted magnum chamber. Then there was my friend that had 5 case head separations out of the first 10 cases he attempted to fire form.

I told him he should have known that would happen before he left the shop. I told him I could have corrected the problem at the range just long enough for him to fire his cases.

F. Guffey

Calfed · April 1, 2016, 08:17 PM

Thanks, Guffey...I ordered a new extractor from Sarco. I'll post the results.

Calfed · April 4, 2016, 11:51 PM

The Sarco extractor arrived. I installed it and it works much better.

The Sarco extractor appears to be from a contract 1908 Brazilian Mauser and is in like new condition.

March 13, 2016, 06:39 PM	#1
Calfed Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Posts: 295	Weak extractor in Argentine '09 .308 conversion? A few months back I glommed this '09 Argentine Mauser that has been converted to .308W. It is very passably accurate, but I'm having problems with the extractor. When I extract the case after firing, the case slips of the extractor after I've pulled the bolt back an inch or so. I then have to pick the case out by hand. Is this because the extractor was designed for a different case or is the extractor likely just weak? Thanks for any assistance.

March 15, 2016, 12:50 AM	#7
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Looks like someone tried to smooth out a feeding issue by reshaping the extractor (not uncommon with the 308 due to sharper shoulder and less body taper). A new extractor is fairly cheap. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

March 15, 2016, 03:10 PM	#9
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	If you buy a commercial extractor, you might need to fit it, but that is fairly simple. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

March 17, 2016, 04:52 PM	#13
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	I have no fewer than 30 Mauser bolts; I would not remove the extractor, I would simply change bolts. Then there is that thing about how much difference there is between bolts. I purchased 4 suspect rifles for $25.00 each. I removed the barrel and tested all 4 receivers with one bolt and one barrel. There was not more than .001” difference in the length of all 4 chambers. I sorted through 30 06 Springfield bolts and could not find .002” difference in the effect each bolt made on the length of the chamber. I have custom bolts for Springfield 03A3 receivers that were used when chambering a barrel. F. Guffey Last edited by F. Guffey; March 19, 2016 at 12:08 PM. Reason: change 03 to 06

March 13, 2016, 07:39 PM	#2
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	Mausers are designed to be manipulated like you're trying to break them. What may have be done to your rifle is some altering of the extractor to allow easier single shot loading. M-98 extractors are available and relatively cheap and don't require much effort to swap.

March 13, 2016, 07:41 PM	#3
Wyosmith Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Location: Shoshoni Wyoming Posts: 2,713	It is possible to let the extractor come into the bolt face deeper on Mausers. You need to have a Drimel wheel that you have spun down against a grinder to match the radius of the inside raised tongue and then another wheel that will fit inside the hook itself. Grind the tongue about .005" and try it. If the hook still lets go paint the side of the bolt nose to see if the extractor is dragging. (I use dykem blue) If the hook lets go of the shell keep taking it down until it holds or until the inside of the hook drags. It the hook drags then you have to start taking metal off each one each time But eventually you can close the gap. You have about .030" to work with on an average Mauser extractor.

March 13, 2016, 07:49 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The 7.65 has the same rim diameter (.470") as the .308, .30-'06, 8mm Mauser, etc, so that is not the problem. Normally, the extractor holds the case against the projection on the opposite side of the bolt head, keeping the case from falling until it is kicked out by the ejector. There could be other problems, but a common one is that someone "smoothed up" the extractor to more easily slip over a chambered round in single shot firing and got the hook reduced too much.* The only feasible solution is a new extractor; fortunately, the M1909 is a standard length Mauser 98 action, so extractors are available at reasonable prices. Try www.gunpartscorp.com. *There is a myth that the 98 Mauser was made so it will feed only from the magazine and that single loading is meant to be impossible. That is not true, and any properly made 98 Mauser should single load with only moderate effort. Jim

March 14, 2016, 11:31 PM	#5
Calfed Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Posts: 295	Thanks, guys. I'll order a new extractor and hope for the best.

March 14, 2016, 11:55 PM	#6
Calfed Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Posts: 295	I think that a "ground extractor" may be the trouble. I've got several other '09 Argentines, including one that was drilled and tapped, but is still in 7.65 x 53 and has never had an issue with the extractor. I took pics of the bolt face from the problem Argentine and the one that never gives me trouble....see if you can see which one is from the .308W Argentine that the cases slipping from during extraction...

March 15, 2016, 09:31 AM	#8
Calfed Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Posts: 295	If I buy an extractor from Numerich or Sarco, will it likely just need to be installed, without any additional fitting?

March 16, 2016, 12:24 AM	#10
Calfed Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Posts: 295	Sarco is selling as new extractors that supposedly are originally for the 7x57 1908 Brazilian Mausers. Thinking of giving one of those a try.

March 16, 2016, 07:09 AM	#11
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	If the present extractor was ground in an attempt to ease a feeding problem, this problem may return when a new extractor is installed. The way the present part was ground off may be causing the issue due to the thickness of the edge of the extractor that grabs the case rim. As shown in the picture, this area is way too thick in my opinion. Tapering this edge back and restoring a sharper edge may help w/o the need to replace but I will add that a lot has been taken off the present part so quite possibly even thinning the edge may not fully fix the issue. I have several Mausers re-barrelled to .308 based cartridges. Most of them suffer some degree of dropping cases on top of the mag rather than ejecting- especially if not manipulated "briskly". This may be due to the smaller neck diameter and shorter (51mm vs 57mm) case length coming free of the chamber too early in the bolt cycle. I don't see this with the 257 Roberts(57mm case length) M-98 I have. Just a thought.

March 16, 2016, 12:04 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Replacing the extractor is easy. To remove the old one, pry it up at the front until the little lug clears the groove in the bolt, then pull it forward. Do NOT remove the extractor collar that goes around the bolt. Put the new extractor in place and line it up with the collar, then push it back while pulling up and out on the front. It will slip into place and you are done. Jim

March 17, 2016, 08:27 PM	#14
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I and several friends once got about 25 Mauser 98 rifles together. They were made in at least four different countries and in several different calibers (7x57, 8x57, 7.65x53, .30-'06, .270). We began swapping bolts and checking headspace. I am sure we didn't cover every possible combination (if we did we would still be there), but every one we checked came in with acceptable headspace using field gauges. The only one that failed the field gauge check with its own and other bolts was a rifle put together by a custom gunsmith who was supposed to be the best in the area. Jim

March 19, 2016, 07:15 AM	#15
HankC1 Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 531	I would first bend the extractor to see if it hold the case better.

April 1, 2016, 08:17 PM	#18
Calfed Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Posts: 295	Thanks, Guffey...I ordered a new extractor from Sarco. I'll post the results.

April 4, 2016, 11:51 PM	#19
Calfed Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Posts: 295	The Sarco extractor arrived. I installed it and it works much better. The Sarco extractor appears to be from a contract 1908 Brazilian Mauser and is in like new condition.