308

4runnerman · October 14, 2011, 04:25 PM

Hey all.Serious question here and need help. Looking for any one that has a formula for 308 loads. What i need is a MV or 2830 with a Serria 175 match bullet.
I tried 45.2 gn's of Varget and got 2730 but was leaving extractor marks on brass.
Maybe someone has another powder or something. I am starting to wonder if i can throw it that fast.

**Unclenick** · October 14, 2011, 04:35 PM

What barrel length and what kind of action and what brand of case and what COL? If it's not a gas gun, Reloader 17 in Winchester cases will probably get you as far as you're going to go.

4runnerman · October 14, 2011, 04:56 PM

24 inch barrel COL is 2.81. Bolt Action, Winchester and Nosler Brass.. Hello Nick. Don't ask why I need 2830 ok.

black mamba · October 14, 2011, 05:27 PM

I don't think that velocity is possible with a 24" barrel and 2.81" OAL within prudent pressure limits. The Hornady Superformance with 165 gr BT is loaded to 2840 fps, but that is with non-cannister powder unavailable to the public.

4runnerman · October 14, 2011, 05:53 PM

Black Mamba.. Im thinking same as you. I don't think a different powder is going to do it either,but i had to ask. Might need to step down to 155 or 168 to get there. Superformance is a compressed load to the max. Normal press will not load it. I have heard good things about the ammo though.

mehavey · October 14, 2011, 06:01 PM

QuickLoad couldn't find anything that wasn't in the mid-high 60's for pressure.

But best velocity/performance for Max'd out pressures and still capable of getting stuffed in the case's volume was found using:

Vihtavuori N550
Hodgdon H414
Winchester 760
Alliant Reloder-17

Personally, I'd run trials w/ the latter to start.

GeauxTide · October 14, 2011, 09:58 PM

You'd need an '06 to get that velocity in 24". I could get 2800 with 180s in the '06. 2600-2650 is what you can expect from 175s.

4runnerman · October 15, 2011, 07:24 PM

My results are in. Im going back to RL-15 and GM210M primers again. Lower charge and a faster MV. Not to mention more accurate than Varget and cheaper to buy

. Thanks to all for the input and advice, This is a great forum and lots of good advice and knowledge in here.

PawPaw · October 16, 2011, 08:24 AM

Have you tried Alliant's 2000MR? I bought a pound of it to play with this summer and got some really interesting velocities with 150 grain bullets in a Remington 700.

I'm a fan of Reloder 15 in the .308, but I load for several rifles and I've settled on one load that seems to shoot very well in all the rifles my family uses. I push 165/168 bullets to about 2650 with RL15 and I'm very happy with that load. However, those experiments this summer with 2000MR were very interesting in regards to velocity. That powder seems to flatten the pressure curve a little bit, put sustain it longer. Hence, much better velocity.

Jimro · October 16, 2011, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Maybe someone has another powder or something. I am starting to wonder if i can throw it that fast.

You can't throw it that fast, not without a longer barrel. You might be able to get a 155gr PALMA bullet up to 2900 but that would be a very hot loading as well (like many PALMA shooters load). A 155gr Scenar would be your next best choice for a long range option.

Jimro

PawPaw · October 16, 2011, 03:44 PM

I think that he could do it with Power Pro 2000MR. I'm getting 2950 with a 150 grain bullet from my bone stock Remington 700.

Western Shooter reports over 2950 fps with a 178 Hornady A-Max, but he cautions that he was shooting a Model 12 F/TR with a 30" barrel.

golfnutrlv · October 16, 2011, 07:03 PM

My 26" barrel powers a 175 MK over 44.5 gr Varget, 2.90", Lapua brass, 210M to approximately 2,650 fps.

Getting that bullet to 2800 fps is more like a 300 win mag.

Try the Hodgdon reloading data center here: Data.

I find it to be pretty good data.

**Unclenick** · October 16, 2011, 09:08 PM

PawPaw,

I've not tried that powder, but QuickLOAD says Reloader 17, compressed 105%, can get a 150 to 2990 fps in a 24" tube if you seat it out far enough to make room for the powder. That's at near to 60,000 psi. But RL 17 can't get the 175 to 2830 fps in the same computer model. The problem is the longer bullet is eating up too much of the powder space beneath it. So, energy density of the powder is apparently a big part of the performance story.

So, that leads me to my question: do you know how full the case is with your load of MR2000? That may turn out to be the performance key. About how far below the case mouth is the charge before you put the bullet over top of it?

PawPaw · October 17, 2011, 08:54 AM

Honestly, Nick, I don't recall. I was using Hornady Match brass, a WLR primer and a 150 grain Hornady Interlock bullet to work up a hunting load. I recall looking down the case neck and saw that the powder wasn't going to be compressed as it was below the neck, but above the shoulder. Let's call it 90% or better.

I'm shooting that load in a 1983 model Remington 700 ADL. It's a bone-stock hunting rifle that I haven't done anything to but shoot it. It wears a 3X9 Leupold VX1 scope. It's a standard Fudd hunting rifle.

When I got the powder, I loaded some cartridges at 0.3 grain intervals and found the best accuracy at 51.1 grains, well below max. When I put it over the chronograph, I was startled to see that I was getting 2947 fps from that load. No pressure signs at all. Primers nicely rounded, bolt lifted easy. That rifle has the longest lede in the history of long ledes. When I seat the bullet one caliber into the case neck, it's nowhere near the rifling. If I seat it to touch the rifling, the bullet falls out of the case. Lots of jump on that load.

Yesterday I was tuning up grandkids for the upcoming deer season, having them shoot at 8" paper plates. Not a real small target, but one that approximates a whitetail deer's vitals. I took that rifle and propped my elbows on the hood of the pickup and let three shots fly at one of those plates. Two shots touched and the third opened it up to an inch, centered in the plate.

**Unclenick** · October 17, 2011, 09:35 AM

The charge weight you used alone tells me the powder has higher bulk density than Reloader 17, so you can get more of it in. Sounds like you hadn't maxed it out either.

Well, darn. Now I'm going to have to get some to play with. Higher sustained pressure down the bore won't be appropriate for gas guns, but it sounds like a good bolt gun powder. Have to try it in the tac rifle and see if it's 1000 yard potential with 175's is improved any.

Big Yac · October 17, 2011, 09:52 AM

I'm not going to post my exact charge (not because its over the max or anything but just incase something happens) but ever try IMR 4895? I use the same bullet, 180gr Sierra Match HPBT in my 308 and 30-06 with this powder and get great accuracy. This is using Winchester brass and Winchester primers. All brass is trimmed, deburred, etc before loading. I've never tried the 175gr bullets but I think 4895 seems to be a good powder for the heavier bullets.

**Unclenick** · October 17, 2011, 10:10 AM

IMR 4895 is a good powder, but according to Hodgdon it max's out at about 2704 fps with the 175 grain bullet in a 24" barrel. It is too bulky and, like any single base powder, will be too low on energy content to get to the 2830 fps number the OP is after. Paw Paw's powder suggestion of 2000 MR looks like it might come closer, but 4895 definitely won't get there at safe pressures.

Jimro · October 17, 2011, 11:21 AM

Alliants website maxes out velocity with 2000mr from a 24 inch barrel 110 fps slower than what the OP is looking for. However it lists plenty of loads in the 150gr range in excess of 2900 fps.

One guy at snipershide is really hotloading his rounds with 2000mr and not experiencing pressure signs. So maybe it could be done, but my bet is that you would start seeing excess pressure signs around 2750 fps with a 175 SMK.

Jimro

**Unclenick** · October 17, 2011, 04:57 PM

I don't think Alliant's site maxes any of its loads. It just tries to provide universal recipe loads. It even calls them recipes. Finding a SAAMI max, if that's what you want, will take buying a Pressure Trace or similar tool, and actually trying to measure it. Otherwise, you just have to work up while watching for pressure signs and see where you land.

Big Yac · October 18, 2011, 03:02 PM

I realized that the bullet weight (180gr) and powder (IMR 4895) would not produce the mv which was wanted. I was just throwing that combo out there since my 308 (Remington 700) loves it at long ranges. I do have a question though, how did the original poster comes up with this mv? Was a loading software used? I've never used any reloading software, just published manuals. I assume reloading software can have different variables plugged in to help figure point of impact of a certain load? Thanks.

mehavey · October 18, 2011, 03:22 PM

There was a very high decibel discussion about 18 months ago as to whether even a standard/24" 30-06 could reach the mid 2,800's with a 180 grainer.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...1&postcount=34

Let's just say its smaller 308Win cousin really isn't going to get anywhere near that regime without more than a bit of risk. (Not that an elk is going to ever know the difference at 200+ yards)

October 14, 2011, 04:25 PM	#1
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	308 Hey all.Serious question here and need help. Looking for any one that has a formula for 308 loads. What i need is a MV or 2830 with a Serria 175 match bullet. I tried 45.2 gn's of Varget and got 2730 but was leaving extractor marks on brass. Maybe someone has another powder or something. I am starting to wonder if i can throw it that fast. __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional Last edited by 4runnerman; October 14, 2011 at 04:34 PM.

October 14, 2011, 04:35 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	What barrel length and what kind of action and what brand of case and what COL? If it's not a gas gun, Reloader 17 in Winchester cases will probably get you as far as you're going to go. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 14, 2011, 04:56 PM	#3
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	24 inch barrel COL is 2.81. Bolt Action, Winchester and Nosler Brass.. Hello Nick. Don't ask why I need 2830 ok. __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

October 14, 2011, 05:53 PM	#5
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	Black Mamba.. Im thinking same as you. I don't think a different powder is going to do it either,but i had to ask. Might need to step down to 155 or 168 to get there. Superformance is a compressed load to the max. Normal press will not load it. I have heard good things about the ammo though. __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

October 14, 2011, 06:01 PM	#6
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,885	QuickLoad couldn't find anything that wasn't in the mid-high 60's for pressure. But best velocity/performance for Max'd out pressures and still capable of getting stuffed in the case's volume was found using: Vihtavuori N550 Hodgdon H414 Winchester 760 Alliant Reloder-17 Personally, I'd run trials w/ the latter to start. Last edited by mehavey; October 14, 2011 at 08:34 PM.

October 14, 2011, 05:27 PM	#4
black mamba Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2011 Location: SW Florida Posts: 890	I don't think that velocity is possible with a 24" barrel and 2.81" OAL within prudent pressure limits. The Hornady Superformance with 165 gr BT is loaded to 2840 fps, but that is with non-cannister powder unavailable to the public.

October 14, 2011, 09:58 PM	#7
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,423	You'd need an '06 to get that velocity in 24". I could get 2800 with 180s in the '06. 2600-2650 is what you can expect from 175s.

October 15, 2011, 07:24 PM	#8
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	My results are in. Im going back to RL-15 and GM210M primers again. Lower charge and a faster MV. Not to mention more accurate than Varget and cheaper to buy. Thanks to all for the input and advice, This is a great forum and lots of good advice and knowledge in here. __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

October 16, 2011, 08:24 AM	#9
PawPaw Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Location: Central Louisiana Posts: 3,137	Have you tried Alliant's 2000MR? I bought a pound of it to play with this summer and got some really interesting velocities with 150 grain bullets in a Remington 700. I'm a fan of Reloder 15 in the .308, but I load for several rifles and I've settled on one load that seems to shoot very well in all the rifles my family uses. I push 165/168 bullets to about 2650 with RL15 and I'm very happy with that load. However, those experiments this summer with 2000MR were very interesting in regards to velocity. That powder seems to flatten the pressure curve a little bit, put sustain it longer. Hence, much better velocity. __________________ Dennis Dezendorf http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com

October 16, 2011, 03:44 PM	#11
PawPaw Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Location: Central Louisiana Posts: 3,137	I think that he could do it with Power Pro 2000MR. I'm getting 2950 with a 150 grain bullet from my bone stock Remington 700. Western Shooter reports over 2950 fps with a 178 Hornady A-Max, but he cautions that he was shooting a Model 12 F/TR with a 30" barrel. __________________ Dennis Dezendorf http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com

October 16, 2011, 07:03 PM	#12
golfnutrlv Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 1,347	My 26" barrel powers a 175 MK over 44.5 gr Varget, 2.90", Lapua brass, 210M to approximately 2,650 fps. Getting that bullet to 2800 fps is more like a 300 win mag. Try the Hodgdon reloading data center here: Data. I find it to be pretty good data. __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ VIGILIA PRETIUM LIBERTATIS "The price of liberty is vigilance" America is at an awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.

October 16, 2011, 09:08 PM	#13
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	PawPaw, I've not tried that powder, but QuickLOAD says Reloader 17, compressed 105%, can get a 150 to 2990 fps in a 24" tube if you seat it out far enough to make room for the powder. That's at near to 60,000 psi. But RL 17 can't get the 175 to 2830 fps in the same computer model. The problem is the longer bullet is eating up too much of the powder space beneath it. So, energy density of the powder is apparently a big part of the performance story. So, that leads me to my question: do you know how full the case is with your load of MR2000? That may turn out to be the performance key. About how far below the case mouth is the charge before you put the bullet over top of it? __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; October 17, 2011 at 10:11 AM. Reason: typo fix

October 17, 2011, 08:54 AM	#14
PawPaw Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2010 Location: Central Louisiana Posts: 3,137	Honestly, Nick, I don't recall. I was using Hornady Match brass, a WLR primer and a 150 grain Hornady Interlock bullet to work up a hunting load. I recall looking down the case neck and saw that the powder wasn't going to be compressed as it was below the neck, but above the shoulder. Let's call it 90% or better. I'm shooting that load in a 1983 model Remington 700 ADL. It's a bone-stock hunting rifle that I haven't done anything to but shoot it. It wears a 3X9 Leupold VX1 scope. It's a standard Fudd hunting rifle. When I got the powder, I loaded some cartridges at 0.3 grain intervals and found the best accuracy at 51.1 grains, well below max. When I put it over the chronograph, I was startled to see that I was getting 2947 fps from that load. No pressure signs at all. Primers nicely rounded, bolt lifted easy. That rifle has the longest lede in the history of long ledes. When I seat the bullet one caliber into the case neck, it's nowhere near the rifling. If I seat it to touch the rifling, the bullet falls out of the case. Lots of jump on that load. Yesterday I was tuning up grandkids for the upcoming deer season, having them shoot at 8" paper plates. Not a real small target, but one that approximates a whitetail deer's vitals. I took that rifle and propped my elbows on the hood of the pickup and let three shots fly at one of those plates. Two shots touched and the third opened it up to an inch, centered in the plate. __________________ Dennis Dezendorf http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com

October 17, 2011, 09:35 AM	#15
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	The charge weight you used alone tells me the powder has higher bulk density than Reloader 17, so you can get more of it in. Sounds like you hadn't maxed it out either. Well, darn. Now I'm going to have to get some to play with. Higher sustained pressure down the bore won't be appropriate for gas guns, but it sounds like a good bolt gun powder. Have to try it in the tac rifle and see if it's 1000 yard potential with 175's is improved any. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 17, 2011, 09:52 AM	#16
Big Yac Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 422	I'm not going to post my exact charge (not because its over the max or anything but just incase something happens) but ever try IMR 4895? I use the same bullet, 180gr Sierra Match HPBT in my 308 and 30-06 with this powder and get great accuracy. This is using Winchester brass and Winchester primers. All brass is trimmed, deburred, etc before loading. I've never tried the 175gr bullets but I think 4895 seems to be a good powder for the heavier bullets. __________________ "...and that's the bottom line, because Big Yac said so."

October 17, 2011, 10:10 AM	#17
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	IMR 4895 is a good powder, but according to Hodgdon it max's out at about 2704 fps with the 175 grain bullet in a 24" barrel. It is too bulky and, like any single base powder, will be too low on energy content to get to the 2830 fps number the OP is after. Paw Paw's powder suggestion of 2000 MR looks like it might come closer, but 4895 definitely won't get there at safe pressures. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 17, 2011, 11:21 AM	#18
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Alliants website maxes out velocity with 2000mr from a 24 inch barrel 110 fps slower than what the OP is looking for. However it lists plenty of loads in the 150gr range in excess of 2900 fps. One guy at snipershide is really hotloading his rounds with 2000mr and not experiencing pressure signs. So maybe it could be done, but my bet is that you would start seeing excess pressure signs around 2750 fps with a 175 SMK. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

October 17, 2011, 04:57 PM	#19
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	I don't think Alliant's site maxes any of its loads. It just tries to provide universal recipe loads. It even calls them recipes. Finding a SAAMI max, if that's what you want, will take buying a Pressure Trace or similar tool, and actually trying to measure it. Otherwise, you just have to work up while watching for pressure signs and see where you land. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 18, 2011, 03:02 PM	#20
Big Yac Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 422	I realized that the bullet weight (180gr) and powder (IMR 4895) would not produce the mv which was wanted. I was just throwing that combo out there since my 308 (Remington 700) loves it at long ranges. I do have a question though, how did the original poster comes up with this mv? Was a loading software used? I've never used any reloading software, just published manuals. I assume reloading software can have different variables plugged in to help figure point of impact of a certain load? Thanks. __________________ "...and that's the bottom line, because Big Yac said so."

October 18, 2011, 03:22 PM	#21
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,885	There was a very high decibel discussion about 18 months ago as to whether even a standard/24" 30-06 could reach the mid 2,800's with a 180 grainer. http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...1&postcount=34 Let's just say its smaller 308Win cousin really isn't going to get anywhere near that regime without more than a bit of risk. (Not that an elk is going to ever know the difference at 200+ yards) Last edited by mehavey; October 18, 2011 at 03:27 PM.