The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 7, 2018, 02:42 PM   #1
Green Lantern
Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2017
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 95
Trigger pull

I understand that trigger pull is a part of accuracy.

What is a good trigger pull?

Noticed the Ruger SR9 is 6.5 lbs striker fired. It's listed as double action only. Interesting how odd triggers can be called by different names.
Green Lantern is offline  
Old January 7, 2018, 02:51 PM   #2
xandi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2015
Location: ga
Posts: 287
A good trigger has a crisp and clean break every time
xandi is offline  
Old January 7, 2018, 03:20 PM   #3
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,481
Quote:
What is a good trigger pull?
Quote:
A good trigger has a crisp and clean break every time
Add minimum take-up, short travel, short reset, not over 4 lbs. and very consistent to that and you have an excellent trigger.

That is a tall order .......... You'll be hard pressed to find that outside the 1911 family .....
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 7, 2018, 03:32 PM   #4
Green Lantern
Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2017
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 95
Being just a one year old gun guy, I have not pulled to many triggers. I do like the Ruger 22/45 MarkII trigger. Best I've found so far.
Green Lantern is offline  
Old January 7, 2018, 03:37 PM   #5
dontcatchmany
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 19, 2010
Posts: 280
What does crisp and clean mean?????
dontcatchmany is offline  
Old January 7, 2018, 03:38 PM   #6
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,481
Quote:
I do like the Ruger 22/45 MarkII trigger. Best I've found so far.
I'ts got to be better than my MkIII .... I am told that the magazine disconnect thingy is at fault and fixable ....
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 7, 2018, 03:43 PM   #7
Green Lantern
Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2017
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontcatchmany View Post
What does crisp and clean mean?????
To me, crisp and clean means smooth to the firing point. No gritty feel before your get the point the gun fires. The firing point being quickly, not drawn out lengthy.
Green Lantern is offline  
Old January 7, 2018, 03:47 PM   #8
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,481
Quote:
What does crisp and clean mean?????
It means you feel even, steady resistance and then snap, you don't. Some have likened it to the breaking of a thin glass rod, like the ones us old guys used last century in HS chemistry class ....
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 7, 2018, 03:53 PM   #9
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 18,177
Quote:
What does crisp and clean mean?????
It means that the trigger pull does not "drag", feel "mushy", or "gritty", that it is the same weight and feel throughout the full length of the pull.

The most often used term for the desired best release is "like a glass rod, breaking", which means there is no change to the feel, of the pull until the weapon fires.

The actual weight of the trigger pull is the least important part. A gun with an 8lb pull but a clean and crisp "glass rod break" can be fired more accurately than one with a 4lb pull where the trigger feels like its being dragged through the dirt.

Quote:
Add minimum take-up, short travel, short reset, not over 4 lbs. and very consistent to that and you have an excellent trigger.
This is an opinion, and quite valid, but not universally held by all.

Quote:
That is a tall order .......... You'll be hard pressed to find that outside the 1911 family .....
This is another opinion, however this one isn't as valid. I have dozens of revolvers, single shots, and even some non-1911 family semi autos that meet those trigger pull requirements. It's not JUST 1911s that have good/great triggers.

(and this IS the General Handgun forum, so all types apply)
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old January 7, 2018, 03:58 PM   #10
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,481
Oftentimes I wonder if the popularity of the cheap plastic wundernines is not based on the fact that the largest part of the buyers of these things don't know any different ..... this thread is confirming that theory....
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 7, 2018, 04:04 PM   #11
Nathan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2001
Posts: 4,221
Basically trigger pulls generally involve a mechanism that must slide a sear off some hammer/striker surface to fire.

Therefore, there are 4 parts of the pull: takeup, pull, overtravel and reset. In theory, you want 0 takeup, 0 pull length, 0 overtravel and 0 reset at a light weight of pull. On the practical side of things, usually 0 isn't best.

In a combat handgun, I like some ~1mm or 1-2 lb takeup, a 4-6 lb pull with no creep feeling and just a smidge of overtravel with a short tactile reset.

Or.....the shooter can adapt to he gun. This is generally the better way....most shooters can adapt to mat popular guns with some training. The benefit is you get full safety and economy of a stock trigger.
Nathan is offline  
Old January 7, 2018, 04:15 PM   #12
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,481
Quote:
A gun with an 8lb pull but a clean and crisp "glass rod break" can be fired more accurately than one with a 4lb pull where the trigger feels like its being dragged through the dirt.
Not by me .... 8 pounds is a bit much force to apply with one's index finger and still keep the rest of the hand from moving at all, especially if one must pull that 8 lbs through an arc of 1/2 and inch or more ...... and for all the praise that tuned S&W revolvers get as being "buttery smooth and cracker crisp", some of them have DA pulls well above 10 pounds ..... but anything can be compensated for with enough training .... I just thinks it's a fool's errand when there are easier learning curves out there.... That is definitely my opinion.

Quote:
I have dozens of revolvers, single shots, and even some non-1911 family semi autos that meet those trigger pull requirements. It's not JUST 1911s that have good/great triggers.
Excepting the single shots, the word "consistent" in my criteria DQ's most of the rest .... I did not say it was impossible to find a good trigger outside of the 1911 family .... just not easy.
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 7, 2018, 05:25 PM   #13
Green Lantern
Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2017
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 95
You guys talk of the "1911 family". Which one?

A lot of companies make a 1911. Are they all the same trigger?

Edit : Went to look on a buying site and 23 companies make the 1911.
Green Lantern is offline  
Old January 7, 2018, 05:34 PM   #14
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,481
Quote:
A lot of companies make a 1911. Are they all the same trigger?
They are all roughly the same design ..... John Moses Browning was a Genius.

Different companies execute the design with varying degrees of success ..... but I have a Charles Daly 1911 (made in the Phillipines by what I believe is now called ARMSCOR) that I paid less than $400 ..... no it's not as good as my Springfield EMP, but by my criteria poste above, it still beats any plastic gun's trigger ....
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 7, 2018, 05:39 PM   #15
reddog81
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 16, 2014
Location: Iowa
Posts: 966
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbob86 View Post
Not by me .... 8 pounds is a bit much force to apply with one's index finger and still keep the rest of the hand from moving at all, especially if one must pull that 8 lbs through an arc of 1/2 and inch or more ...... and for all the praise that tuned S&W revolvers get as being "buttery smooth and cracker crisp", some of them have DA pulls well above 10 pounds .....

Excepting the single shots, the word "consistent" in my criteria DQ's most of the rest .... I did not say it was impossible to find a good trigger outside of the 1911 family .... just not easy.
Almost every new revolver has a double action trigger pull over 10 lbs. My new S&W 929 Jerry Miculek had an 11 lbs pull out of the box and its supposed to be a custom tuned performance center model. The single action pull was right around 4 pounds. A 4 lbs single action trigger pull is an easy target for any quality revolver with a little work. Replacing the trigger return spring lowered each of these numbers considerably.

There are tons of other guns 4 lbs trigger pulls or less. Just looked in my safe and I have 2 Colts woodsman's, a Hi Standard Sportking, Star model B, a CZ 75B that all have under a 4 lbs trigger pull. This is over half the semi-autos that I own that aren't 1911's. Most of my 1911's don't have a 4 lbs trigger pull. Colt Delta Elite-5 lbs, Colt GCNM-4.5 lbs with a 17 lbs mainspring, Kimber TLE-4.5 lbs. I have a couple of 1911's with under 4 lbs triggers but they have all had work done to get them that low. 1911's are nice but there are plenty of other guns out there that have triggers as good or better.

If an 10 lbs double action trigger pull on a revolver is too much, than you need to spend some time dry firing the gun.
reddog81 is offline  
Old January 7, 2018, 06:01 PM   #16
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,481
Quote:
2 Colts woodsman's, a Hi Standard Sportking, Star model B, a CZ 75B
All SA, with the exception of the CZ75b (which can be carried C&L so it gets a pass ....) so they have consistent trigger pull on every shot .... the Browning Hi-Power can be great, as well ..... but as I said above, they are not not an easy thing to find, unless you go with a the ubiquitous 1911: the Star has been out of production for a quarter century, and the remaining two centerfire guns don't exactly constitute "plenty of options" .... granted, there are many .22 cal SA target guns with very nice light triggers out there ..... but to me those are not serious handguns.
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 7, 2018, 06:11 PM   #17
reddog81
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 16, 2014
Location: Iowa
Posts: 966
I was just looking at what's in my safe...

My point is that plenty of guns have as good of or better triggers than a 1911. Most striker fired guns don't have trigger pulls in the 4 lbs range but than again most factory 1911's don't either.
reddog81 is offline  
Old January 7, 2018, 06:20 PM   #18
Green Lantern
Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2017
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 95
Ok, What is too heavy a trigger for a single action?

The original post mentions the Ruger at 6.5 lbs. Hickok45 thinks it has great trigger.
Green Lantern is offline  
Old January 7, 2018, 06:30 PM   #19
reddog81
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 16, 2014
Location: Iowa
Posts: 966
Anything over 6.5 for SA in my book would be heavy. Between 6 and 7 is probably the point where you go from the moderate range to the heavy range. At least for me. But as mentioned before it depends on "the feel" of the trigger. Another consideration is how well the gun fits in you hand. Too big a gun and you're having to stretch the finger out unnaturally. Too small and you're having to contort you finger/hand to get proper contact with the pad of your finger.

Another consideration is how much experience you have shooting in general. For someone who shoots regularly a 6.5 pound trigger is still easy to get good shots off. For a new shooter it might be too much. Every person is different. Every gun is different.
reddog81 is offline  
Old January 7, 2018, 06:31 PM   #20
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,481
Quote:
Ok, What is too heavy a trigger for a single action?
You'll have to determine that for yourself.

I think 6+ is way too heavy.

But I'm spoiled.
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/

Last edited by jimbob86; January 7, 2018 at 06:39 PM.
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 7, 2018, 06:36 PM   #21
Areoflyer09
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2017
Posts: 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbob86 View Post
Not by me .... 8 pounds is a bit much force to apply with one's index finger and still keep the rest of the hand from moving at all, especially if one must pull that 8 lbs through an arc of 1/2 and inch or more ...... and for all the praise that tuned S&W revolvers get as being "buttery smooth and cracker crisp", some of them have DA pulls well above 10 pounds ..... but anything can be compensated for with enough training .... I just thinks it's a fool's errand when there are easier learning curves out there.... That is definitely my opinion.



Excepting the single shots, the word "consistent" in my criteria DQ's most of the rest .... I did not say it was impossible to find a good trigger outside of the 1911 family .... just not easy.
I think this is one best parts of the current gun culture. We can agree on certain aspects that create that perfect thing, but the exact definition of those aspects can vary from person to person and based on their use.

Generally, we will all agree that we want any movement to be smooth and the breaking point to be clean. There is less agreeement over items like acceptable travel, pull weight, etc. Part of the disagreements will come from use of the gun. The characteristics many like in a carry gun aren’t the same characteristics that one would like for a competition gun.

I can’t disagree with Jimbob over his option of a 1911 trigger characteristics, they can be fantastic. I do disagree that quality triggers are hard to find. Interestingly, the only true 1911 (RIA 22TCM) I have left at this point has the worst pistol trigger in the safe and it’s kept because I enjoy the round more than the gun itself. The top two triggers are my Tanfoglio Hunter and the Coonan, both of which meet the criteria Jim laid out.
Areoflyer09 is offline  
Old January 8, 2018, 12:58 AM   #22
BigJimP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2005
Posts: 13,197
There is a design issue in play here.

1911 triggers float in the frame of the gun and move back & forth horizontall as they break & reset. Its my opinion that a great 1911 trigger is between 3.5 and 4.5 lbs...with no creep, no slack ( no grit ) and it breaks like glass and reset is short and precise.. ( Wilson Combat makes 1911's with a trigger that good ! .../ ...many 1911 mfg's do not...). Design on all 1911's is the same...the execution of how well that trigger works or is fit to its other components that fire the gun is not the same in all mfg's .

Most other guns have a "hinged trigger" suspended from a pin & they move thru an arc as you pull them...( revolvers in double action, Sigs in DA and SA, stryker fired gjns, etc. ). Any gun with a hinged trigger will have some slack, some wobble especially on reset ...the worst of them have a lot of creep and do not break cleanly. Hinged triggers can be ok, after you get used to them...especially in Single Action if they're under 5 lbs and can be tuned to eliminate creep.

Picking what you prefer is a big deal...once you find what you like best, it will probably significantly improve your shooting. Comparing 1911 triggers to hinged triggers ...is an apple to oranges comparison / they are not the same.

Some revolvers have trigger pull weights that "stack" as you pull them ( the old Colts)...ans some don't stack ( S&W )....so a long time ago I figured out I liked the S&W triggers much better. In Single Action ...most revolvers break like glass, at light weight, no creep, no slack ...,( again very different from most semi-autos).

I am an unapologetic 1911 fan...Wilson Combat makes some of the best guns I own ...with excellent triggers...and they are my primary carry, training & range guns / all of my Wilsons break at around 4 lbs...with no slack & no creep/ they are what I compare every other gun I own to. I enjoy shooting a Sig X-5 L1 model with an adjustable trigger in it that you set between 2 - 4 lbs in SAO but its no Wilson. I enjoy shooting my S&W revolvers K, L, N frames...they are not 1911's , they're different..../...you have to figure out what you like.
BigJimP is offline  
Old January 8, 2018, 02:47 AM   #23
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 21,511
A good trigger is one that lets a shooter using proper technique fire the gun without pulling it off target in the process.

Things that really tend to cause problems are the following:

1. The combination of overtravel and a heavy trigger.

Overtravel is the movement of the trigger (usually requiring very little effort) after the shot breaks.

Even a pretty heavy trigger with no overtravel can be very shootable, but if you've been pulling hard on the trigger to overcome a stiff trigger pull and then the shot breaks and the trigger easily moves another little bit before coming to a stop against the frame of the gun, that will tend to yank the gun off target.

2. A gritty/creepy trigger.

Ideally a trigger should either move very smoothly until the gun fires, or it should move very little at all while the pressure builds against the trigger until the trigger "breaks" and the shot fires. A trigger that creeps or is gritty feeling, or moves in little skips during the time that it should be either moving smoothly, or moving very little at all, will make it difficult to shoot the gun accurately.

3. An inconsistent trigger.

If the trigger behaves one way when you pull the trigger and then the next time you fire a shot it feels very different, that will make shooting accurately difficult. I'm not talking about guns that feel one way when shooting without the hammer cocked and another way when the hammer is cocked, I'm talking about a gun that has a trigger that feels different from shot to shot even when being fired in the same mode every time.

The rest of it is preference. People like very light triggers, crisp triggers, triggers with short travel, long travel, short reset, positive reset, abrupt break, triggers that move straight back instead of pivoting, triggers that pivot, etc. Sometimes they like those things because they can mask, or partially mask issues with technique. But those things shouldn't be confused with what makes a trigger good or bad. If the trigger doesn't prevent a shooter, who is using proper technique, from shooting the gun accurately then it's a good trigger regardless of personal preference.
Quote:
Oftentimes I wonder if the popularity of the cheap plastic wundernines is not based on the fact that the largest part of the buyers of these things don't know any different...
Once a person begins to confuse personal opinions and preferences with fact, they begin looking for ways to rationalize the reality that not everyone shares their opinions and preferences. A common approach is to make the blanket assumption that anyone with differing preferences or opinions must be either poorly informed or simply wrong.

The fact is that people with equal amounts of experience and knowledge may still prefer different types of guns and have different opinions about firearms.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old January 8, 2018, 04:45 AM   #24
dontcatchmany
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 19, 2010
Posts: 280
Thanks to all of those who answered my "clean and crisp" question.

I have 8 semis ( FN, Bersa, Ruger, Glock) and all except a Shield 40 are clean and crisp. The Shield is such that the gun is pulled off target by the trigger. Travel is way too long and the engagement is gritty as heck and the reset is horrible. Right before firing the trigger is like pulling a stubborn mule.

In research on the Shield and getting older with arthritis has caused me to find several flaws in my grip and trigger pull and to understand or re-understand some of the mechanics of shooting a hand gun. My over all shooting has improved or is getting more like my younger days. However the Shield (it has made me think more about trigger pull and grip) needs a complete trigger job....or a replacement gun...lol!...wish FN made a subcompact that could be pocket carried.
dontcatchmany is offline  
Old January 8, 2018, 04:52 AM   #25
Nathan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2001
Posts: 4,221
Quote:
Oftentimes I wonder if the popularity of the cheap plastic wundernines is not based on the fact that the largest part of the buyers of these things don't know any different ..... this thread is confirming that theory....
While I kind of agree with this, I will add that we are in a golden age of factory triggers and trigger kits. Most everything made today is good enough that the other side of the equation, the shooter, can learn to be quite effective with it.
Nathan is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09662 seconds with 10 queries