Did the Indians on the Plains recover Spent Brass & Why???

[thallub]

FYI, the Benet inside primed .45-70 and .45-cal. handgun cartridges that were used by US troops in 1876 were NOT considered to be reloadable in the field, nor were they returned to Frankford Arsenal for reloading.

Yep. They just threw the cases away.

Later they tossed the brass cases. At the site of an abandoned fort i found large quantities of Benet primed copper cases and Boxer type primed .45 Colt and .45 Government brass cases in near pristine condition in an old cellar.

[Mike Irwin]

Starting around 1885-1887 or so the military started recovering cartridge casings that had been fired during training and sent them back for reloading and reissue (as training ammo) to make the parsiminous allocations given them by Congress go farther.

In fact, recycling of cases fired during training is how the military discovered that mercury in the primers would destroy cartridge brass.

Upon adoption of the Krag, reloaded cases began failing at an extremely high rate. It had never been noted with the brass .45-70 cases, apparently because of the much lower pressures generated by black powder, and the powder fouling tended to bind up most of the mercury and keep it from reaching the brass.

[Bill Akins]

This is the best analysis of Custer's defeat at Little Big Horn that I have ever read. It goes into the weapons and calibers used on both sides and explains very well what happened.

http://www.historynet.com/battle-of-...ing-factor.htm




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[Dan_D]

I would say that while they were scavenged for decoration (I believe I have seen metal cones which were a common decoration reported to have been made from cartridge cases..but I can't remember the exact source), I believe reloading to be the primary reason. Metallic cartridges were often a prohibited trade item, especially after Congress authorized President Grant in August '76 "to prevent such special metallic ammunition being conveyed to such hostile Indians". That did not stop metallic ammunition being used by Native Americans as Colonel Richard Irving Dodge stated that: "Every male Indian who can buy, beg, borrow, or steal them, has now firearms of some kind....The trade in arms is entirely illicit. The trader slips into the Indiand country, now here, now there, and not knowing beforehand the caliber of the ammunition required, takes that which is most commonly in use. Some guns of a band were almost always out of use on this account, but necessity....has so stimulated the ordinary uninventive brain of the Indian, that if he can only procure the moulds for a bullet that will fit his rifle, he manages the rest by an ingenious method of reloading his old shells peculiar to himself. He buys from the trader a box of the smallest percussion caps....forces the cap [into the cartridge casing] until it is flush. Powder and lead can always be obtained from the traders; or in default of these, cartridges of other calibers are broken up, and the materials used in reloading his shells. Indians say that the shells thus reloaded are nearly as good as the original cartridges, and that the shells are frequently reloaded 40 or 50 times"
I hope this helps,
Dan

[indy1919]

Mike that is a wonderful photo, many thanks for sharing that... And as a side note the line of questioning was not to determine Reno's skirmish line But to determine if a lack of shells in the area of Custer's Companies was proof of a route of Custers men or because the Indians picking up the shells...

Infact at one point it was stated that the shells would be picked up to fit the carbine

Page 282 - 283

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi...y.Reno&isize=M

[indy1919]

Bill Akins.. That is a great article..

And it seems to be so overlooked was the Horrible marksmanship of the 7th that day... My heavens they had 25,000 rounds of ammo, they fought a running battle for 2 days, They were the aggressors, They shot into the Indian encampment for at least 15 mins and all they can account for is about 50 KIAs..

Also we can never overlook the fact the Indians decided not to play by the Army's assumptions and Run.. Instead they played by new rules..

But looking at even a couple of things as why the battle went the way it did is like worrying about why the Transmission is slipping while the car goes over the cliff..

There were so many fails in this case..

- Everyone assumed the Indians would run from Terry on down
-The battle was to take place in the winter when the Indians were the weakest
- The army did not try to readjust their tactics after the Disaster at the Rosebud
- The Indians had had enough pushing and wanted to get some
- The Indians reservations were a disaster of graft and cheating..
- Reno's loss of command & control

ON and On the list goes.. Some are more important then others but they all add up to what happen..

[Locoweed]

A few years ago I lived on the Navajo Indian Rez and, knowing I was into reloading, a Navajo on duty with the National Guard approached me with thirty .50 BMG cartridge cases that he wanted deprimed so they could use them as jingle-bobs on their dancing regalia. I knocked the primers out and ran them through my case tumbler and they looked nice and the Indian was delighted. He gave me ten cases for my trouble. So, yes, cartridge cases were probably worn by the old time Indians for decorations and they would pick them up when encountered. At the same time, the shooting ranges on the Rez were gold mines of discarded brass so the attraction certainly didn't appeal to all present day Indians.

[Double Naught Spy]

If used as I think based on your description, your buddy was using the cases as "brass tinklers." That is really what they are called. They were usually handmade from scaps and pieces of brass, copper, and other metal, but were worn on the clothing in such a way as to provide decoration and to bang together to produce the "tinkle" noise.

http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth31007/
http://books.google.com/books?id=UCZ...inkler&f=false

[indy1919]

1st off thanks to thallub again for the link to The Cartridge Collector wed site.. I know sometimes in the 21st century the term "This is a goldmine of information" can get used to much .. But this place is that gold mine...

It seems that the Benet Primed cases could be reloaded. Or the fear was that they were being reloaded, was realized by the army in early 1876...


http://www.oldammo.com/april04.htm


Rather it is fact or fiction, This would explain the Indians wanting to keep the correct shell cases with the carbine as per the court transcript...

[thallub]

It seems that the Benet Primed cases could be reloaded.

i seriously doubt that many were ever reloaded by native Americans. The black marketeers and arms peddlers traded ammo and guns for buffalo robes, pelts, etc. Traders at some of the Indian agencies sold guns and ammunition to native Americans. Guns and ammunition were sometimes handed out as "annuities" by the government.

Off topic:

In 1869 the Quakers went to president Grant and obtained permission to "manage" the native Americans under the Peace Policy. They were going to make farmers of the Kiowas and Comanches

The US Army was not allowed to go after the Indians unless they were caught in the act of raiding. Some of the Indian agencies became sanctuaries for raiding and collecting scalps. Fort Sill was the worst.

In 1874 generals Sheridan and Sherman came up with a plan to subdue the Indians. The plan was blessed by Grant. The Army chased the Cheyennes, Kiowas, Comanches and some smaller tribes all over what is now western OK, western TX south of the Red River and the TX panhandle. At that time the area was called Llano Estacado (the staked plains). It's part of the area formerly known as the Great American Desert.

When an Indian encampment was found it was burned and the food stuffs destroyed. Many thousands of horses were captured and shot or sold at auction. Within a period of four months the Indians were subdued.

Suggested reading: The Carbine and the Lance, The Story of Old Fort Sill by Col. W. S. Nye.

BTW: The US Army employed members of the Tonkawa tribe as scouts: The Tonkawa were cannibals and were despised by the other tribes.