Which bolt action milsurp rifle should I buy?

Rustle in the Bushes · June 5, 2011, 05:58 AM

Hey firing line. Im looking to pick up a nice bolt action milsurp rifle. I am biting the bullet pun intended and getting into reloading as i know most older milsurp is pretty dry up here in Canada especially. keeping that in mind, and that I dont really like mosins, these are my options

Schmidt-Rubin/ k31- There are 2 rubins in a local store here and they look great. Hear amazing things but from what i hear reloading components might be hard to find/expensive?

Lee Enfield- Gorgeous IMO but have heard mixed reviews on quality, plenty available in canada. might have an easier time finding components?

mauser- available. reloading components hard to find?

ability to find reloading components is a big factor here so if anyone has experience trying to find components for these? am i missing your favorite?

tobnpr · June 20, 2011, 12:09 PM

What is intended use of the rifle?

There are many Mauser variations, and many calibers available.

I'm thinking about picking up an M/96 in 6.5 x 55 Swiss to build another long-range target rifle.

Curious...
What is it about Mosin Nagants you don't like? My "project" rifle (91/30) shoots 1.5 MOA (with handloads, of course)- not bad for an old MN.

Navy joe · June 20, 2011, 01:23 PM

K-31. For reloading, it uses .308 bullets, not .311 or whatever like a mosin. Probably the widest bullet selections there. The GP-11 surplus is still around, but get it now. Brass is available, Grafs does runs from time to time, I bought a bunch, lots of commercial ammo on the market now to get brass from.

the rifleer · June 20, 2011, 01:24 PM

Just get whichever you like best. You can reload for all of them. The k31 would be easy because it is just a .308 bore. My understanding is the .303 is difficult to find ammo for. Both the 8mm and 7.5mm are still available in surplus. You can also buy commercial 8mm ammo.

The k31 is going to be the best in terms of accuracy. They are all reliable, its just a matter of which one you want.

carguychris · June 20, 2011, 02:49 PM

Quote:

There are many Mauser variations, and many calibers available.

+1; answering the questions "should I buy a Mauser" is difficult to answer unless we know which Mauser you want to buy.

Newer Mauser variants are usually chambered in 6.5x55, 7x57, or 8x57 (aka 7.92x57), all of which are fairly commonplace and easy to handload. The Swedish 6.5x55 rifles are generally considered to be at the top of the heap in terms of out-of-the-box accuracy.

OTOH some of the older rifles are chambered in 7.65x53 aka 7.65 Argentine or 7.65 Belgian; this cartridge is a good deal less common than the others and harder to handload.

Although I'm not sure of the situation in Canada, numerous Spanish Mausers recently imported to the USA were rechambered from 7x57 to 7.62x51mm NATO by the Spanish government for use by guards and reserve units from the 1950s onwards. Although this is theoretically a Very Good Thing for a handloader, the safety and durability of these converted rifles is a matter of widespread and contentious debate. 7.62x51 is a higher pressure cartridge than 7x57- not a lot higher, but higher nonetheless. Since I do not find comfort in the thought of a bolt flying back in my face, my opinion is that these guns are best avoided if you intend to use factory ammo, but OK if you keep your powder loads well short of the MAX column.

TCL · June 20, 2011, 06:52 PM

You can't really go wrong with any of them, but if I were Canadian, I'd have to go with a Lee-Enfield produced at the Long Branch Arsenal. (For that matter, I'm not Canadian but I still want a Long Branch...)

kenno · June 20, 2011, 07:03 PM

The Schmit Rubbin is a great rifle, made like a Swiss watch and will have been well cared for, about 60 rounds fired per year and CLEANED each time! Ammo cost about $.60 per round. Probably shoots 2" @100 yards
The SMLE,,,,Queen of the battlefield! probably shoots 2-6" @100 depending on rifle, lots of spare parts, even new barrels,,,. ammo might be cheaper in Canada, even down to .30 a round???
Decide how much ammo you can afford for either rifle, like gas for a car it aint the initial purchase, it's the fuel and add-ons!
Make a Critical Thinking list: What do you want the rifle to do? What is your budget? Include things like ammo availablity and spares (lifespan)

Ignition Override · June 21, 2011, 11:27 PM

Rustle:
Have you had the chance to shoot any of the guns at the top of your wish list?

I'm always curious as to how many Loonies you guys pay for twenty rds. of ammo.
Whether it has Boxer or Berdan primers was not an issue for me until learning to reload in early '10.

Keep in mind that many Enfield #4/Mk 1s with really nice 2-groove bores often can not handle Boat Tail bullets at 100 yards or so.
Even a fraction of those built in England during WW2 have only 2-grooves, but most of those do not.

This is the only drawback to these excellent rifles that I'm aware of, assuming that ammo costs are reasonable.

madcratebuilder · June 22, 2011, 06:48 AM

Being Canadian you should look at the Long Branch No4 Enfield. If you are going to reload you have solved the ammo availability problem.

Scouse · June 22, 2011, 08:15 AM

A good Lee Enfield gets my vote. Should be easy to find in your part of the world and relatively inexpensive.

Best battle bolt action hands down. Mauser would be a better choice on paper for a hunter, it can handle higher pressure ammo and is theoretically more accurate and won't have long term headspacing issues the way the Lee Enfield might. However, the Lee Enfield is superbly ergonomic and its action is smoother and shorter than all its competitors, it holds ten rather than five. .303 British shouldn't be too hard to find in Canada, particularly if you reload. The Lee Enfield is accurate enough for any reasonable application you will put it to and unless you regularly put hundreds of rounds per session through it, it will last as long as any other rifle . . . and spare bolts will not be hard to come by if headspacing issues do arise.

A Mk III with volley sights has a great history behind it; a good Long Branch No.4, with its excellent sights is a great Canadian rifle and highly practical. . . and they just have soul, they shoot like a dream.

Good luck with your search!

Rustle in the Bushes · June 22, 2011, 02:17 PM

After a while searching I was able to find a really nice k31. The brass I ordered comes in next week!! But surprise, I still want an enfield. its between that and a remington 870 right now hmmm....

bumnote · June 23, 2011, 11:56 PM

Congrats on the K31! I bought myself one for Christmas, and it can easily do 1" or better at 100yrds if I do my part...recoil on these rifles is also very mild. Max pressure is something like 45K for the caliber. I bought about 200 rounds of Pri...the Serbian ammo to get brass, it was my only option at the time...fairly inexpensive ammo too. I don't know if you know about the dies, Redding's are made for the K31, the other brand(s?) will work as well. Since I'm already loading for 308 & 30-06 all I needed was brass. I can use the same powders I already use in 308/30-06, Varget and IMR 4320. 500 175gr FMJ-BT's from Wideners runs $90. All in all these rifles are a bargin for their quality. I cured my Mauser jones with an FN Model 1950 Mauser, it was the only Mauser originally chambered for 30-06, so I've been able to keep reloading costs down, that way I can save up a few bucks and shoot more.

I'm going to drop this one into a sporter stock I bought from Boyds and buy a second K31 to keep as is. I've come to like this rifle so much, I wouldn't mind owning 2 or 3.
Over in the Swiss rifle forum you can find links to all dates of manuf., proof codes, an English translation of the manual, and look under the buttplate most have a tag w/ the previous owners name and outfit in the Swiss army. Unfortunately mine didn't have one since it was an arsenal refurbish.
Enjoy the new rifle, I think you'll love it as much as I do mine.

Usertag · June 23, 2011, 11:59 PM

I am not going to explain much. But definetly recommend the Lee Enfield. It's the most accurate of the bunch, And the .303 is unique, powerful, and relativly cheap. But the gun itself is sort of expensive.

Ideal Tool · June 24, 2011, 12:55 AM

How about a Ross..can't get more MapleLeaf than that!

Wildalaska · June 24, 2011, 01:35 AM

adrians · June 24, 2011, 08:42 PM

mauser////enfield.
Enfield///mauser ,i love em both .
EITHER ONE IS A GOOD CHOICE BUT FOR ME I WOULD GO 51% ENFIELD,,, 49% MAUSER,.
HUMMMM SO WHY DO I OWN MORE MAUSERS THAN ENFIELDS????

Winchester_73 · June 25, 2011, 12:08 PM

Duplicate thread

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=453327

Ideal Tool · June 28, 2011, 12:55 AM

1896, 0r 1898 Krag. Smoothest bolt you can find.

Ignition Override · June 29, 2011, 01:06 AM

Mr. Rustle...:

Have you really compared ammo both in shops and with Canuck Internet distributors for surplus and comm. prices between all three rifles?
You might have done so weeks ago. How about the recent price trends?

Keep in mind that on average, the Enfield #4s (ROF, "F", Maltby or Shirley) built in England mostly have four, five or six-groove rifling, and should do much better with BT bullets than some Longbranch or Savage types.

I have the book on the #4/#5, by Charles Stratton in case you have a question.

pak75 · July 19, 2011, 07:48 AM

Have you considered a India RFI Enfield 2A1? It is uses the classic Enfield No1 MkIII action but has much better steel and chambered for 7.62 NATO. Ammo would be around for a long time and it will safely shoot the cheaper Russian steel case ammo.

Also consider a US M1917, 1903 or 1903A3. Not the most available or cheapest milsurp out there but the ammo (30.06) is available anywhere in North America. No worries about shooting commercial ammo in them. Just be aware there are some low serial numbered 1903 rifles out there that are not recommended as shooters.

tobnpr: Where do you find M/96 6.5 X 55 SWISS rifles and ammo?

**Mike Irwin** · July 19, 2011, 09:38 AM

Just noticed that this one is a duplicate, and many of the answers seem to be replicated across both threads, so I'm closing this one.

June 5, 2011, 05:58 AM	#1
Rustle in the Bushes Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2011 Location: Canada- West Posts: 175	Which bolt action milsurp rifle should I buy? Hey firing line. Im looking to pick up a nice bolt action milsurp rifle. I am biting the bullet pun intended and getting into reloading as i know most older milsurp is pretty dry up here in Canada especially. keeping that in mind, and that I dont really like mosins, these are my options Schmidt-Rubin/ k31- There are 2 rubins in a local store here and they look great. Hear amazing things but from what i hear reloading components might be hard to find/expensive? Lee Enfield- Gorgeous IMO but have heard mixed reviews on quality, plenty available in canada. might have an easier time finding components? mauser- available. reloading components hard to find? ability to find reloading components is a big factor here so if anyone has experience trying to find components for these? am i missing your favorite?

June 20, 2011, 01:23 PM	#3
Navy joe Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2001 Location: VA, USA Posts: 1,804	K-31. For reloading, it uses .308 bullets, not .311 or whatever like a mosin. Probably the widest bullet selections there. The GP-11 surplus is still around, but get it now. Brass is available, Grafs does runs from time to time, I bought a bunch, lots of commercial ammo on the market now to get brass from. __________________ FY47012

June 22, 2011, 02:17 PM	#11
Rustle in the Bushes Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2011 Location: Canada- West Posts: 175	got a k31 After a while searching I was able to find a really nice k31. The brass I ordered comes in next week!! But surprise, I still want an enfield. its between that and a remington 870 right now hmmm....

June 23, 2011, 11:56 PM	#12
bumnote Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2008 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 407	Congrats on the K31! I bought myself one for Christmas, and it can easily do 1" or better at 100yrds if I do my part...recoil on these rifles is also very mild. Max pressure is something like 45K for the caliber. I bought about 200 rounds of Pri...the Serbian ammo to get brass, it was my only option at the time...fairly inexpensive ammo too. I don't know if you know about the dies, Redding's are made for the K31, the other brand(s?) will work as well. Since I'm already loading for 308 & 30-06 all I needed was brass. I can use the same powders I already use in 308/30-06, Varget and IMR 4320. 500 175gr FMJ-BT's from Wideners runs $90. All in all these rifles are a bargin for their quality. I cured my Mauser jones with an FN Model 1950 Mauser, it was the only Mauser originally chambered for 30-06, so I've been able to keep reloading costs down, that way I can save up a few bucks and shoot more. I'm going to drop this one into a sporter stock I bought from Boyds and buy a second K31 to keep as is. I've come to like this rifle so much, I wouldn't mind owning 2 or 3. Over in the Swiss rifle forum you can find links to all dates of manuf., proof codes, an English translation of the manual, and look under the buttplate most have a tag w/ the previous owners name and outfit in the Swiss army. Unfortunately mine didn't have one since it was an arsenal refurbish. Enjoy the new rifle, I think you'll love it as much as I do mine. __________________ "And remember, Abraham Lincoln didn't die in vain, he died in Washington D.C." - Firesign Theatre Last edited by bumnote; June 24, 2011 at 12:04 AM.

June 24, 2011, 01:35 AM	#15
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,172	The best military bolt action rifle ever made was the Enfield. WildgetoneofthemAlaska ™©2002-2011

June 20, 2011, 12:09 PM	#2
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	What is intended use of the rifle? There are many Mauser variations, and many calibers available. I'm thinking about picking up an M/96 in 6.5 x 55 Swiss to build another long-range target rifle. Curious... What is it about Mosin Nagants you don't like? My "project" rifle (91/30) shoots 1.5 MOA (with handloads, of course)- not bad for an old MN.

June 20, 2011, 01:24 PM	#4
the rifleer Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2008 Location: Sunny California Posts: 1,281	Just get whichever you like best. You can reload for all of them. The k31 would be easy because it is just a .308 bore. My understanding is the .303 is difficult to find ammo for. Both the 8mm and 7.5mm are still available in surplus. You can also buy commercial 8mm ammo. The k31 is going to be the best in terms of accuracy. They are all reliable, its just a matter of which one you want. __________________ There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid people.

June 20, 2011, 06:52 PM	#6
TCL Member Join Date: April 5, 2011 Posts: 78	You can't really go wrong with any of them, but if I were Canadian, I'd have to go with a Lee-Enfield produced at the Long Branch Arsenal. (For that matter, I'm not Canadian but I still want a Long Branch...)

June 20, 2011, 07:03 PM	#7
kenno Junior member Join Date: November 3, 2008 Posts: 180	The Schmit Rubbin is a great rifle, made like a Swiss watch and will have been well cared for, about 60 rounds fired per year and CLEANED each time! Ammo cost about $.60 per round. Probably shoots 2" @100 yards The SMLE,,,,Queen of the battlefield! probably shoots 2-6" @100 depending on rifle, lots of spare parts, even new barrels,,,. ammo might be cheaper in Canada, even down to .30 a round??? Decide how much ammo you can afford for either rifle, like gas for a car it aint the initial purchase, it's the fuel and add-ons! Make a Critical Thinking list: What do you want the rifle to do? What is your budget? Include things like ammo availablity and spares (lifespan)

June 21, 2011, 11:27 PM	#8
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,887	Rustle: Have you had the chance to shoot any of the guns at the top of your wish list? I'm always curious as to how many Loonies you guys pay for twenty rds. of ammo. Whether it has Boxer or Berdan primers was not an issue for me until learning to reload in early '10. Keep in mind that many Enfield #4/Mk 1s with really nice 2-groove bores often can not handle Boat Tail bullets at 100 yards or so. Even a fraction of those built in England during WW2 have only 2-grooves, but most of those do not. This is the only drawback to these excellent rifles that I'm aware of, assuming that ammo costs are reasonable.

June 22, 2011, 06:48 AM	#9
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	Being Canadian you should look at the Long Branch No4 Enfield. If you are going to reload you have solved the ammo availability problem.

June 22, 2011, 08:15 AM	#10
Scouse Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2011 Posts: 133	A good Lee Enfield gets my vote. Should be easy to find in your part of the world and relatively inexpensive. Best battle bolt action hands down. Mauser would be a better choice on paper for a hunter, it can handle higher pressure ammo and is theoretically more accurate and won't have long term headspacing issues the way the Lee Enfield might. However, the Lee Enfield is superbly ergonomic and its action is smoother and shorter than all its competitors, it holds ten rather than five. .303 British shouldn't be too hard to find in Canada, particularly if you reload. The Lee Enfield is accurate enough for any reasonable application you will put it to and unless you regularly put hundreds of rounds per session through it, it will last as long as any other rifle . . . and spare bolts will not be hard to come by if headspacing issues do arise. A Mk III with volley sights has a great history behind it; a good Long Branch No.4, with its excellent sights is a great Canadian rifle and highly practical. . . and they just have soul, they shoot like a dream. Good luck with your search!

June 23, 2011, 11:59 PM	#13
Usertag Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2011 Location: Louisville Posts: 261	I am not going to explain much. But definetly recommend the Lee Enfield. It's the most accurate of the bunch, And the .303 is unique, powerful, and relativly cheap. But the gun itself is sort of expensive.

June 24, 2011, 12:55 AM	#14
Ideal Tool Junior member Join Date: October 6, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,080	How about a Ross..can't get more MapleLeaf than that!

June 24, 2011, 08:42 PM	#16
adrians Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2010 Location: mountain view ,ar. Posts: 184	mauser////enfield. Enfield///mauser ,i love em both . EITHER ONE IS A GOOD CHOICE BUT FOR ME I WOULD GO 51% ENFIELD,,, 49% MAUSER,. HUMMMM SO WHY DO I OWN MORE MAUSERS THAN ENFIELDS????

June 25, 2011, 12:08 PM	#17
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	Duplicate Duplicate thread http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=453327 __________________ Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west

June 28, 2011, 12:55 AM	#18
Ideal Tool Junior member Join Date: October 6, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,080	1896, 0r 1898 Krag. Smoothest bolt you can find.

June 29, 2011, 01:06 AM	#19
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,887	Mr. Rustle...: Have you really compared ammo both in shops and with Canuck Internet distributors for surplus and comm. prices between all three rifles? You might have done so weeks ago. How about the recent price trends? Keep in mind that on average, the Enfield #4s (ROF, "F", Maltby or Shirley) built in England mostly have four, five or six-groove rifling, and should do much better with BT bullets than some Longbranch or Savage types. I have the book on the #4/#5, by Charles Stratton in case you have a question. Last edited by Ignition Override; June 29, 2011 at 01:14 AM.

July 19, 2011, 07:48 AM	#20
pak75 Junior Member Join Date: May 20, 2011 Posts: 6	India RFI Enfield 2A1 Have you considered a India RFI Enfield 2A1? It is uses the classic Enfield No1 MkIII action but has much better steel and chambered for 7.62 NATO. Ammo would be around for a long time and it will safely shoot the cheaper Russian steel case ammo. Also consider a US M1917, 1903 or 1903A3. Not the most available or cheapest milsurp out there but the ammo (30.06) is available anywhere in North America. No worries about shooting commercial ammo in them. Just be aware there are some low serial numbered 1903 rifles out there that are not recommended as shooters. tobnpr: Where do you find M/96 6.5 X 55 SWISS rifles and ammo? Last edited by pak75; July 19, 2011 at 08:01 AM.

July 19, 2011, 09:38 AM	#21
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Just noticed that this one is a duplicate, and many of the answers seem to be replicated across both threads, so I'm closing this one. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.