I need a better understanding of lead bullets .

[USSR]

Quote:
Metallurgy has two 'l's', same as 'metallic'. Sorry, couldn't help myself.

...I wonder how my spelling correction program missed that.

Ah, technology. Reminds me of when myself and a co-worker where in Atlanta for training. We took a cab to a restaurant, and after eating we decided to walk back to the hotel. We knew the hotel was located west of the restaurant, but she decided to use GPS to tell us which way to go. It said to turn left from the restaurant. Since it was early evening, I looked up in the sky and saw that turning right was in the direction of the setting sun. We went right.

Don

[Metal god]

Is there a general rule from bullet weight and hardness to powder charge all else being equal ? This goes back to me seeing same weight lead bullets with very different minimum to maximum charge weights . Are those charge differences more to do with bullet profile or lead hardness ?

[USSR]

Metal_god,

Several factors in play here. First, some (most) of the manuals assume you are using swaged lead bullets and intentionally keep the velocities well below what cast bullets are capable of. Second, the data in reloading manuals (if it's even their own data) is simply where they started and where they stopped. I once called Sierra and spoke with a technician regarding what they listed as a "Maximum Load". I was told "That's simply where we decided to stop". I highly recommend the Lyman Reloading Manual and Lyman Cast Bullet Manual for lead bullet load data.

Don

[Real Gun]

With the Lyman manual I found I had to pay close attention to the alloy listed. If it says "Linotype", that is very hard and indicated for hotter loads, magnums, and such.

[USSR]

Linotype is simply the alloy Lyman used. The bullets cast from that alloy will weigh less, but nothing wrong with using the load data with a somewhat softer alloy if we are talking typical handgun rounds. Remember, Elmer Keith cast his .44 Magnum bullets using an alloy with a BHN of 11, as opposed to the BHN of 22 for linotype. Fit is King.

Don

[Real Gun]

Linotype appears to be more than "just the alloy Lyman used". They specify either #2 or Linotype, with the latter always associated with higher performance, magnums in particular.

[USSR]

Real Gun,

Those were simply the commonly used alloy of the day. Newspapers and print shop were not creating computer generated print. My dad was a printer, and when I was a kid he took me into the print room at the newspaper where he worked. The room was filled with humongous machines which were fed pigs of linotype and produced "line-o-type" that was later covered with ink and pressed against the newsprint paper to print a page of a newspaper. While you have to use a reasonable hardness of alloy depending upon the load, you are not required to use linotype simply because Lyman did in their load development from many years ago. Again, fit is king.

Don

[Real Gun]

That is not my understanding. Linotype is quite hard, Brinell 22, and its composition is stated on page 23 of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook; 86 lead, 3 Tin, 11 antimony. It can be duplicated rather than (s)melted from actual printing scrap. The word is used to refer to a grade of hardness. It is indicated for high velocity loads, while something quite that hard may not be necessary. It seems best not to ignore the bullet material indicated in Lyman load data.

[USSR]

That is not my understanding. Linotype is quite hard, Brinell 22, and its composition is stated on page 23 of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook; 86 lead, 3 Tin, 11 antimony. It can be duplicated rather than (s)melted from actual printing scrap. The word is used to refer to a grade of hardness.

No Real_Gun, linotype is an actual material that was used in the printing industry, not just the name given to a grade of hardness. Guys casting bullets use all sorts of alloys, and are not locked in to using the exact alloy used in any particular reloading manual.

Don

[rodfac]

No Real_Gun, linotype is an actual material that was used in the printing industry, not just the name given to a grade of hardness. Guys casting bullets use all sorts of alloys, and are not locked in to using the exact alloy used in any particular reloading manual.

Yep, this is absolutely true. And I'll add that I have no problem with using a different alloy for any bullet mold that listed in the handgun section of Lyman's manuals.

The weight tells the story, with heavier indicating an alloy richer in lead than in Lyman's use. For the most part, I use straight wheel weights with just a minimal amount of tin added to facilitate good mold fill out, and I've found that air cooled, this will allow handgun muzzle velocities up to 1200 fps if the dia. of the bullet matches the throats of the cylinder, or up to 0.002" larger.

It's the cylinder throats that matter, given a reasonable match with the groove (not bore) dia. of the barrel. The barrel's groove dia. must be equal to or less than the cylinder throat dia. or you'll get leading and alloy hardness, beyond that of straight, air cooled wheel weights, in my experience, is distant secondary factor to correct sizing.

Given the above, (correct sizing with at least a WW alloy hardness (about 12 in my use), and a forcing cone that is not completely hopeless, leading should not be a problem. This assumes that a lube is applied that is at least as good as the old NRA formula (50-50 alox/beeswax).

For good, accurate cast bullets, there are other factors: the absence of a reduced dia. at the barrel thread, a good mold that throws bullets that are circular and of adequate dia. to fill the cylinder throatsr, and muzzle velocities commensurate with the strength of the alloy and the lube's ability to do it's work are a few worth mentioning.

But...all that said, I rarely attempt to push the velocities of my cast bullets beyond 1200 fps and rarely beyond 1100. This allows me to use cheap wheel weights and avoid leading issues, while attaining gilt edge accuracy that is important. With well inspected bullets, using the above guidelines, and a suitable powder charge, I expect less than 2" groups from my better handguns at 25 yds, and all of my S&W's.

HTH's Rod

[Real Gun]

No Real_Gun, linotype is an actual material that was used in the printing industry, not just the name given to a grade of hardness. Guys casting bullets use all sorts of alloys, and are not locked in to using the exact alloy used in any particular reloading manual.

Don

We aren't disagreeing, in that I didn't dispute whether Linotype occurs as an actual material from printing. It does have a composition though and is indeed indicated by name when a hard bullet is recommended. I presume a bullet caster could duplicate the Linotype formula if desired. Again, I find that Lyman clearly indicates the very hard "Linotype" for high pressure and velocity loads. Otherwise they indicate "Lyman #2. Whether one agrees with Lyman is another discussion.

[reddog81]

The pressure in the round will be the same whether Linotype or Lyman's #2 is used. The bullet will take up the same amount of space and the difference between a bullet weighing 195 grains or 205 grains is irrelevant. Either way they are much softer than a jacketed bullet. Reloading manuals note which components they used, but rarely does anyone use the exact same brass, primer, and bullet combo as the manual.

Many of the mold manufacturers have varied their molds over the years and there are tons of slight variations of the common molds. These would have a small impact on the pressure of rounds but still irrelevant unless pushing the limits on some hot loads.

[USSR]

I presume a bullet caster could duplicate the Linotype formula if desired. Again, I find that Lyman clearly indicates the very hard "Linotype" for high pressure and velocity loads. Otherwise they indicate "Lyman #2. Whether one agrees with Lyman is another discussion.

Uh, no. How are you going to get the antimony into the lead? Lead melts at about 620 degrees while antimony melts at about 1170 degrees, well above bullet casting temperatures. You don't cast, do you? Guys who cast typically take existing linotype metal and alloy it with some other form of lead to make an alloy that works at the pressure level and velocity they are looking for.

Don

[Real Gun]

The pressure in the round will be the same whether Linotype or Lyman's #2 is used. The bullet will take up the same amount of space and the difference between a bullet weighing 195 grains or 205 grains is irrelevant.

I don't know that anyone is disputing that.

Either way they are much softer than a jacketed bullet.

Which is why one should use data for as close as possible for the same type of bullet.

Reloading manuals note which components they used, but rarely does anyone use the exact same brass, primer, and bullet combo as the manual.

But if it says "Linotype", one should acknowledge that a hard bullet is being implied as a recommendation.

Many of the mold manufacturers have varied their molds over the years and there are tons of slight variations of the common molds. These would have a small impact on the pressure of rounds but still irrelevant unless pushing the limits on some hot loads.

Yes, we often extrapolate from a load that is close to what we want to do.

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by Real Gun

So what is a better, concise term than smelting for the process of extracting lead from wheel weights and the like?

Melting.

My oldest unabridged Websters limits smelting specifically to melting accompanied by a chemical change. So when you melt the alloy off the wheel weights, melting is all you are doing. However, when you add flux to the resulting melt to reduce the surface tin and lead and antimony oxides back to metal before casting your bullets or ingots, that is smelting as the chemical compound changes. So, by that definition, the bullet caster does some of both melting and smelting.

Some descriptions you find include having the metal coming out in its purest form, and not as an alloy, but I think we can safely say that when the bullet caster fluxes, he reduces tin, lead, and antimony oxides back to their pure metals first, and then they redissolve into the alloy, so the reduction was still smelting.

[Real Gun]

Uh, no. How are you going to get the antimony into the lead? Lead melts at about 620 degrees while antimony melts at about 1170 degrees, well above bullet casting temperatures. You don't cast, do you? Guys who cast typically take existing linotype metal and alloy it with some other form of lead to make an alloy that works at the pressure level and velocity they are looking for.

Which would explain why Lyman leaps to "Linotype" instead of a moderate hardness.

I am equipped to cast bullets but bought my alloy from Missouri Bullet as Lyman #2, which contains antimony. It is interesting to learn that only a foundry could accomplish that alloy.

[USSR]

I am equipped to cast bullets but bought my alloy from Missouri Bullet as Lyman #2, which contains antimony.

Good. Just be aware that you are NOT restricted to cast bullet load info where they used Lyman #2 alloy. While Lyman #2 would be a good alloy for, say, full velocity .357 Magnum loads, Lyman #2 alloyed 50/50 with some pure or nearly pure lead will serve you better for lower velocity/pressure .38 Special loads with the same bullet. It ain't rocket science, but you do have to use your head.

Don

[Real Gun]

Good. Just be aware that you are NOT restricted to cast bullet load info where they used Lyman #2 alloy. While Lyman #2 would be a good alloy for, say, full velocity .357 Magnum loads, Lyman #2 alloyed 50/50 with some pure or nearly pure lead will serve you better for lower velocity/pressure .38 Special loads with the same bullet. It ain't rocket science, but you do have to use your head.

Don

Just yesterday I reordered 38 Special bullets for CAS loads from Missouri and selected my usual Brinell 12 instead of the optional 15. That 12 level also works better (less leading) in my 357 Magnum loads, none of which are full power but they aren't 38 Special either.

I don't cast those bullets because I now want them coated, mostly for safer handling when placing bullets by hand for seating. I have the materials for coating but would rather buy bullets at this point. I have never actually casted but am equipped to do it, only going that far in case I wasn't able to buy bullets for some reason. I do rely on electricity for the pot though and think my small generator would work in a pinch.

[reddog81]

Originally Posted by Real Gun

But if it says "Linotype", one should acknowledge that a hard bullet is being implied as a recommendation.

That's a reasonable assumption. I'm not sure pure Linotype would be very good in many applications, but with some hot rifle loads it might be appropriate. If your loads are closer to the minimum loads listed you'll probably have better luck with a softer alloy.

If reloading manuals got into the nitty gritty details of how they selected every load, why the starting loads were selected, why the max loads with lead often times don't get close to pushing the limits with cast bullets, why certain powders were left out, etc it would provide us with lots of useful information but would become much more in depth and detailed then many people would want to know.

[USSR]

I'm not sure pure Linotype would be very good in many applications, but with some hot rifle loads it might be appropriate. If your loads are closer to the minimum loads listed you'll probably have better luck with a softer alloy.

Yep. The reason it was used years ago is it was readily available. Now, not so much. Only thing I use it for without alloying it with pure lead is, .30 Carbine at about 1800fps.

Don

[Paul B.]

Real Gun said, "I don't cast those bullets because I now want them coated, mostly for safer handling when placing bullets by hand for seating. I have the materials for coating but would rather buy bullets at this point. I have never actually casted but am equipped to do it, only going that far in case I wasn't able to buy bullets for some reason."

The health hazard is in my opinion greatly exaggerated especially currently by the state of California. To them, everything has lead in it.

I have been casting bullets since 1954 for handgun and rifle. Periodically I've been checked for lead levels in my body. Everything checks out just fine. I've cast bullets for myself and friends and even did it working for a commercial bullet caster for several years. All the violations regarding hazardous stuff would have given OSHA heart failure. Not going into detail on that but one thing has stood out during all these year casting bullets. I'm kind of freaky about drinking orange juice. (OJ) I love the stuff. Seems OJ chelates lead and other bad stuff from your body. It most likely the reason my lead levels are as low as they are. Just wash your hands after casting, and no eating or drinking while casting. Do that and you'll eliminate 80 percent or more with any problems from using casting and loading lead bullets.
I don't want to take this too far OT but felt it needed mentioning.

Hard bullets, soft bullets what's best? My current alloy is a real wizard's mix but casts air cooled bullets to 11 BHN and when water dropped, to 20 BHN. Take that same bullet and bake in an over for a few hours and then water drop and you get 32 BHN. I use a toaster oven I calibrated and bake at 425* F. Usually about two hours. I just do those for rifle bullets for target use.

Made a huge mistake a while back and cast a bunch of Lyman #358156 using the wrong alloy. Bullets were only 8 BHN. About that time a friend traded me a bunch of reloading stuff he didn't need for a box of my .357 Mag. handloads. (14.0 gr. A2400/ 158 gr. cast SWC) I loaded them with those too soft bullets. I told him if they leaded his barrel badly, bring the gun over and I'll do the chore of getting the lead out. Next time I saw him he told me they were the most accurate bullets he's ever shot. No leading in the barrel. I'm wondering what happened as that's a bout 1200 to 1300 FPS load depending on the gun. I loaded up a box and sure enough, more accurate that I can shoot and no leading. His gun a Ruger Blackhawk and mine an S&W M28. The only thing I can figure is the bullet size must have been exactly right for those two guns.
Paul B.

[USSR]

I loaded them with those too soft bullets. I told him if they leaded his barrel badly, bring the gun over and I'll do the chore of getting the lead out. Next time I saw him he told me they were the most accurate bullets he's ever shot. No leading in the barrel.

Kinda puts the lie to the commercial caster's spiel that you need their super hard bullets. As they say, fit is king.

Don

[Metal god]

This thread is really cooking with gas now , lots of good info guys thanks !

Kinda puts the lie to the commercial caster's spiel that you need their super hard bullets. As they say, fit is king.

I plan to slug and or cast my bore , leade/forcing cone and cylinder throats in the next few days to a week . I'll post those numbers as well as the diameter of the 158gr X-treme bullets I have .

[Reggie Perrin]

Since we're getting pedantic about language here, and most of us seem to agree that words mean things and that using the correct ones is important, I'll air one of my personal pet peeves since the offense has been committed in this very thread.

The words Affect and Effect do not mean the same thing, and seem to be used incorrectly by a good 95%+ of internet forum posters, including many right here on TFL, so pay attention and maybe you'll learn something.

Affect 1. To act on, to produce an effect or a change in: the composition of the alloy affects its hardness 2. to impress or move (in mind or feelings): mikld's use of the word "smelting" affected dahermit deeply .

Effect 1. That which is produced by some agency or cause; a result; a consequence: heating pure lead beyond 621 degrees produces the effect of melting 2. power to produce results; efficacy; force; validity; weight: the bullets were undersized, therefore increasing hardness was of no effect in eliminating leading 3. a mental impression produced, as by a painting, speech, etc. mikld said "smelting" and the effect upon dahermit was to lock him up and drive him to--uh, nevermind. I shouldn't have done that. I'm sorry.

Effect refers to something produced by an action or cause. Two common effects of firing undersized cast bullets are leading of the bore and poor accuracy.

Affect and Effect agree in the idea of exerting influence. To Affect is to concern, be of interest or importance to; to produce an effect in or upon something: adding antimony will affect the hardness of the alloy by increasing it. To Effect is to accomplish or bring about something: to effect a harder alloy, add antimony.

[Metal god]

OK Reggie , you just hurt my brain a little bit .

FWIW In the threads I start , I don't care if a word is misspelled or out of place . If I understand what you're saying , that's all that matters . Some may find this hard to believe but some people aren't as smart as others and there spelling is not all that good . This does not make those people stupid !!! It just means you know how to do something better then they can . I'm thinking they can do just as many other things better then you . This does not make any of us better then the other , just different . Get over your selves , your not that special !!!!