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Old October 9, 2018, 06:56 PM   #1
Moloch
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45-70 N130 medium loads

Hey!

Does anybody have any loads with N130 and the 45-70 with 405 grain SP's?

I recently bought a Browning 1886 Winchester extra-light in 45-70, and with 44 grains of N130, the lowest factory load in the Vhitavuori loading guide, and a 405 soft point it kicks the snot out of me. I chrono'ed this load at 1800 fps! Out of a 7.5 lbs rifle!

I went as low as 40 grains but it still kicks quite a lot, but I'm afraid pressure might drop too much to get a clean burn below 40. I'd love to get velocities around 1600 fp/s. Does anybody have experience with N130 and the 45-70?
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Old October 9, 2018, 07:13 PM   #2
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I use Accurate 5744 for my Sharps rifle but at 11 pounds recoil is less. You could consider using black powder the recoil is different, more of a shove than a kick. But this is only my perception. You could also try using 300 grains or 350. But a 45/70 will kick like a mule from a light rifle.
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Old October 9, 2018, 07:22 PM   #3
Moloch
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Thanks! I have a lot of N130 so thats what I have to get working in my 45-70. Once I had a Pedersoli Sharps and shot it with black powder but due to the fouling I would not want to shoot it in a lever action. Taking apart the 1886 is really hard and absolutely not practical after each session.

I'm used to shooting shotguns with slugs and buckshot but my 1886 extra light is a whole nother level in terms of recoil, it is more than I'm willing to tolerate. 20 shots on the range standing and my shoulder turns blood red, forget shooting it sitting supported. As I said, getting velocity down from 1800+ to 1600fps should do the trick but such load is not listed with said powder, hence my question.
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Old October 9, 2018, 08:15 PM   #4
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I think you should forget the N130 and go with IMR 4198. You can go up and down with no problems using it. I use it in most of my straight wall cartridges.

Either that or sell the 1886 Extra Light and get something heavier such as a Henry H010CC.

You can also get recoil reducers to place in the stock. I have 2 of those in my 460.
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Old October 9, 2018, 08:24 PM   #5
mikejonestkd
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H4895 reduces well, I have been using it in an 1873 trapdoor and 300 gr bullets. IIRC I am only using 38gr of H4895, and it is pretty soft shooting.
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Old October 9, 2018, 08:31 PM   #6
NoSecondBest
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Hard to believe someone would beat themselves up simply because they have a lot of one kind of powder. You can get a pound of 5744, 4198, or RL7 and get much milder loads that will still shoot through any deer in N. America from any angle. I have an 1886 in 45-70 and it shoots great groups and doesn't kick the snot out of me when I shoot it. It's also killed several deer....along with my High Wall and Sharps in 45-70. Save twenty bucks and take a beating? Not me.
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Old October 10, 2018, 07:44 AM   #7
Moloch
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Well the rifle already came with the powder and components so naturally I want to make it work with those components. Cannot really use the N130 for any other of my calibers as its too fast.

Selling the rifle is a no-go, absolutely love it. The Handling and size is excellent and my god, craftsmanship is outstanding.

Guess I'll have to try it myself, work my way down from 44 grains and see how low I can go without producing too much unburned powder and powder blow back. Since 44-45 grains gives me a solid 1800 fp/s with the 405's I guess 38 grain would drop velocity to 1700 or so, which decreases recoil by roughly 13%, which is a good start. In addition I'll get a limb saver.

Just so you now, I am not recoil shy by any means but I do not take the rifle to the occasional hunting trip where I shoot 3 rounds or less, I plan on shooting ~30 rounds every once in a while on the range and for that, 405's at 1800 in a 7.5 lbs rifle is pretty nasty.
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Old October 10, 2018, 08:41 AM   #8
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I know your are using 405 grain bullets but from that light rifle you should consider giving up on the 405 grain and go with a 300 grain bullet that can be loaded to 1400 fps using your powder with 33.1 grains . It will definitely make for a lot more enjoyable shooting out of a lever action. Sometime we just need to suck it up and except our limitations or endure the pain.
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Old October 10, 2018, 08:47 AM   #9
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Try selling the powder to someone else and buying something else to use in your gun. Trying to make the 45-70 a flat shooting gun is a waste of effort and a ton of abuse. There are many other calibers that are much flatter shooting and will kill just as effectively. I have, and have had, a good number of 45-70 rifles. They are quite effective on any game animal in N. America at a very moderate 1300-1500 fps. My Miroku mfg. Winchester 1886 will shoot five shot groups at a measured 114 yards (my deck to backstop) under 1.5". Besides that, I can shoot the gun for an extended range session without getting the stuffing beat out of me. I'm not recoil sensitive either, but I know enough to not take a beating when I don't need one either. See if you can get someone to give you a bit of 4198 or Rel 7 to try in your gun. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised at the results.
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Old October 10, 2018, 05:58 PM   #10
Moloch
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@ ms6852

300 and 350 grainer are definitely worth investigating, though I have heard the 1886's like the heavy bullets due the twist rate. Problem is I probably have to use a lot of N130 to get a good load density. I think speer makes some 300 and 350 grainers, I'll check those out.
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Old October 10, 2018, 06:16 PM   #11
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If you insist on VN-130 (as opposed to any of a half-dozen better-suited powders) . . .

QUICKLOAD: (Use as a lower bound as determined by your own work-down)
34.5gr_VN-130/Speer 400FN/17,000psi/1,400fps/22" barrel
85% burn, which is on par w/ Lyman's VN-135 Min load
At 73% load density, it will be somewhat position sensitive

Walk away . . . . .



.

Last edited by mehavey; October 10, 2018 at 06:27 PM.
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Old October 10, 2018, 09:32 PM   #12
ms6852
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moloch View Post
@ ms6852

300 and 350 grainer are definitely worth investigating, though I have heard the 1886's like the heavy bullets due the twist rate. Problem is I probably have to use a lot of N130 to get a good load density. I think speer makes some 300 and 350 grainers, I'll check those out.
I consider a 300 or 350 grain bullet a heavy bullet. Deer or elk won't know the difference.
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Old October 11, 2018, 08:34 AM   #13
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300 and 350g bullets are light bullets in the 45-70. They're shorter for the diameter and in trying them in seven different rifles I've never found them to shoot as well as heavier bullets. Heavier would be 400g and up.
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Old October 11, 2018, 01:48 PM   #14
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It's the "extra light" 7.5 lbs. rifle part that's kicking you. Not the bullet weight itself. 70 grains of BP with a cast 405 out of a TrapDoor Carbine just hurts to shoot.
Use the 400 grain data on Vihtavuori's site. 44 grains of N130 is .7 below minimum for a jacketed bullet too.
"...went as low as 40 grains..." That is an exceedingly unsafe thing to do. Below minimum loads can be as dangerous as above Max loads.
https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading.../?cartridge=57
A 405 grain bullet at 1330 FPS out of a 7.5 pound rifle has 18.7 ft-lbs of recoil energy according to Chuck Hawks(sounds light to me. Dunno where he got those numbers. There's no smokeless load that comes close to 1330 FPS. Unless it's the original BP load.). Compared to a 350 grain at 1900 FPS that has 37.9 out of a 7 pound rifle. The 405 at 1800 FPS will be similar to the lighter bullet.
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Old October 11, 2018, 02:09 PM   #15
NoSecondBest
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Quote:
There's no smokeless load that comes close to 1330 FPS. Unless it's the original BP load
I can't follow this the way it's written. Did you mean to say something else?
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Old October 12, 2018, 03:56 PM   #16
Moloch
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I think I'll be relatively save with loads below the advertised min load of 44 grains on Vitahvuoris website. They say with 44.7 grains I get 1600 fp/s which would be great, but I had a shooting buddy chronograph my load out of my 1886 and it shoots 1837 average 5 shots string. I'm using Starline brass, a PRVI 405 grain jacketed softpoint and 44 grain N130 flat with CCI primer and get nearly 240 fp/s more, powder measured on a manual scale.
And before anyone says I fail at handloading, I've been reloading several different calibers for 10 years now with great success, and my loads were always within +/- 50 fps of the advertised load data. Not sure what the heck is going on with the N130 data.

According to the recoil calculator - http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp - the 240 fps extra increase recoil by 7 ft/lbs and recoil speed of 2 fps. Thats a significant difference, 7 ft/lbs is 1/3 of a 30-06 out of a 1903.

I made loads ranging from 44 grains down to 40 in 1-grain increments and see what happens.
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Old October 12, 2018, 07:24 PM   #17
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The Lee manual has reduced load for the 45/70 using 4895 powder, nice soft loads !!!
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Old October 12, 2018, 08:25 PM   #18
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I use 12gr unique with a 330gr lead bullet. Recoil is much more manageable.wish i owned a chronograph.

Last edited by joeanybody; October 12, 2018 at 08:47 PM. Reason: Misstype
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Old October 12, 2018, 09:06 PM   #19
Dano4734
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35.5 grains of imr4198 will tack nails with my 405 grain hardcast and won’t blow apart my shoulder like my high loads did

Last edited by Dano4734; October 12, 2018 at 09:17 PM.
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