Extreme Penetrator Bullets--Good for hunting?

stagpanther · September 23, 2018, 06:22 PM

The 300gr Lehigh extreme penetrator bullets are some of the most accurate bullets out of my 458 socom AR build. Lehigh says they perform some kind of wound damage enlarging the would channel to equal that of a conventional expanding bullet.

I've read some net wisdom that claims this is false and it's not a good hunting bullet. Point is--I'd like to use it for deer inside of 200 yds since it performs so well out of my AR--but don't know if it's up to the task of a quick ethical kill (assuming I do my part). Part of me says "what the heck--even if it doesn't expand a nearly half inch hole is still pretty big."

opinions/suggestions?

Dufus · September 23, 2018, 08:00 PM

Go to the hobby or craft store and buy your self a block of clay. I used to use duxseal.

Form it into a long rectangular block and crank a round or two into it. Reshape the block after each shot.

BUT, with a sharp knife, after each shot, split the block down the middle gently.

This will allow you to inspect a simulated wound channel.

I use Bentonite for all my tests. Wally World has it in 5 lb bags but I buy it in 50 lb bags at farm & ranch stores.

wv109323 · September 23, 2018, 08:18 PM

A bullet is designed for performance at a certain velocity. I would go to the manufacturer and ask about the bullet. I am guessing it is meant for large animals such as in Africa. I doubt you get much expansion but you should not need it for deer. To lessen meat damage I would not want much expansion.
Where people get in trouble is when they use a pistol bullet at rifle velocities or vice versa.

taylorce1 · September 23, 2018, 08:34 PM

A .45 Caliber hole through a deer is going to kill it in short order. However, what is the game laws in your state? Most require an expanding bullet, your description of the bullet in question makes it sound like it wouldn't be legal.

stagpanther · September 23, 2018, 09:45 PM

There is no prohibition against the use of the bullet in Maine. I only want to use it because it performs very well in the 458 socom--at least mine. I thought about testing it--but was hoping someone could say either "yep--bang flop for me" or "I got a complete pass-through with no blood trail."

Many 458 bullets are obviously designed for big-bore dangerous game cartridges--but many are also designed for 45-70 velocities--which the 458 socom emulates at moderate loads.

Mobuck · September 24, 2018, 06:44 AM

Here's my take: Yes, a .45" hole through a critter might be a killer BUT unless the bullet has some sort of meplat or flat point, tissue damage may be inadequate. African hunters use FMJRN bullets for all sorts of game BUT from my reading of the "old timers" books, they often aimed to hit bone(shoulder, spine, skull) on the lighter game animals. A broken shoulder sends shards of bone through the chest cavity and a critter with a broken shoulder doesn't run far so the professional trackers soon find them.
I'm suggesting that anything labelled "penetrator" isn't likely to produce a suitable wound track when delivered to a deer's lungs.

stagpanther · September 24, 2018, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Here's my take: Yes, a .45" hole through a critter might be a killer BUT unless the bullet has some sort of meplat or flat point, tissue damage may be inadequate. African hunters use FMJRN bullets for all sorts of game BUT from my reading of the "old timers" books, they often aimed to hit bone(shoulder, spine, skull) on the lighter game animals. A broken shoulder sends shards of bone through the chest cavity and a critter with a broken shoulder doesn't run far so the professional trackers soon find them.
I'm suggesting that anything labelled "penetrator" isn't likely to produce a suitable wound track when delivered to a deer's lungs.

The videos I've seen show the "Phillips head" design of the penetrator does create a large wound channel up to the point it starts tumbling in ballistic gel. It's a monolithic bullet of a brass/copper mix apparently. The bullet also features something akin to driving bands which for some reason that I can't figure out work extremely well in the bore of my gun--much better than the barne's tsx or ttsx's. If I do my part I can sometimes put bullets through the same hole on successive shots--but that takes a lot of concentration and work keeping the gun steady, it puts out quite the bang for an AR.

Your concern about a boiler room shot is the same one I have.

FrankenMauser · September 24, 2018, 10:38 AM

I bought some for the .458 SOCOM and for the .475 Tremor (even meaner looking, since they're intended for revolvers and have a massive meplat).
But I have not, yet, used any.
Past experience with other bullets has made me wonder the same as you: Will it be a quick enough kill?

I don't question whether or not it will kill - just whether it will be quick enough.

Grey_Lion · September 24, 2018, 10:08 PM

I'm surprised no-one seems to bring up safety first.
You have to be a lot more careful with a round designed to penetrate as it will likely pass through the animal and continue on.
I believe that the states requiring an expanding round do so for two reasons - one is to take down the game which an expanding round will more reliably do quickly and another is to prevent a round from traveling half a mile or more if you only graze the animal or miss entirely.

So I'd ask you - what is it that you are hunting that might need a round designed strictly for it's penetration qualities? This isn't something I'd think you'd use for deer. Seems like more something you'd use for large trophies. Moose maybe, definitely bear, or on safari. I'd think a penetrator round would be to pass through deep fat layers and / or think bone.

I'd recommend you keep looking for regular ammo for your weapons until you find or make a load it "likes" :-)

stagpanther · September 24, 2018, 10:58 PM

Quote:

I'm surprised no-one seems to bring up safety first.
You have to be a lot more careful with a round designed to penetrate as it will likely pass through the animal and continue on.
I believe that the states requiring an expanding round do so for two reasons - one is to take down the game which an expanding round will more reliably do quickly and another is to prevent a round from traveling half a mile or more if you only graze the animal or miss entirely.

So I'd ask you - what is it that you are hunting that might need a round designed strictly for it's penetration qualities? This isn't something I'd think you'd use for deer. Seems like more something you'd use for large trophies. Moose maybe, definitely bear, or on safari. I'd think a penetrator round would be to pass through deep fat layers and / or think bone.

I'd recommend you keep looking for regular ammo for your weapons until you find or make a load it "likes" :-)

Interesting observation--in the 458 socom the EP projectile runs out of gas pretty quickly--I wouldn't use it on anything outside of 150 yds probably. I'm not sure how much more or less lethal it would be compared to other monolithic designs in a "long range miss". It is very accurate in my AR--that is why I like it.

FrankenMauser · September 25, 2018, 11:44 AM

Quote:

I'm surprised no-one seems to bring up safety first.
You have to be a lot more careful with a round designed to penetrate as it will likely pass through the animal and continue on.

That would be covered by rule #4:
Be sure of your target and what's beyond it.

The shot shouldn't be taken with any bullet, if a full pass-through is risking harm to someone or something else.

stagpanther · September 25, 2018, 12:09 PM

Quote:

That would be covered by rule #4:
Be sure of your target and what's beyond it.

The shot shouldn't be taken with any bullet, if a full pass-through is risking harm to someone or something else.

I thought that goes without saying--but thanks for saying it anyway.

T. O'Heir · September 25, 2018, 12:16 PM

"...unless the bullet has some sort of meplat or flat point..." Like a muzzle loader's round ball?
"...the "Phillips head" design..." Is marketing nonsense. The Lehigh Extreme Penetrator bullet is just another solid copper bullet that will do exactly the same thing any other like solid copper bullet(like Barnes') will do. A 300 grain, .458" bullet at ~ 1700 to 1800 FPS, placed correctly, will drop anything you care to hunt. Hunting regs aside. Not that you should ignore them.
"...Moose maybe, definitely bear..." Neither require extreme penetration. A regular SP will kill either one of 'em with no fuss.
Nice of Lehigh to have load data on their site.

stagpanther · September 25, 2018, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Nice of Lehigh to have load data on their site.

Wow--their charges go WAY past what I've tried!

Bottom Gun · September 25, 2018, 01:53 PM

The videos I’ve seen of both the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator and Xtreme Defense bullets have been impressive. They have outperformed everything else tested in ballistics gel.
Personally, I think the Lehigh bullets make good sense and I’ve started using them in .357 Sig for woods carry.

stagpanther · September 25, 2018, 03:03 PM

Quote:

The videos I’ve seen of both the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator and Xtreme Defense bullets have been impressive. They have outperformed everything else tested in ballistics gel.
Personally, I think the Lehigh bullets make good sense and I’ve started using them in .357 Sig for woods carry.

I've searched high and low on the net and can't find any actual anecdotal "I shot my deer with an EP out of my 458 socom and..."

std7mag · September 25, 2018, 03:32 PM

Check your game laws. A lot of states use wording such as "bullet meant to expand".
This would eliminate the use of the EP right there.

Bottom Gun · September 25, 2018, 03:45 PM

Quote:

I've searched high and low on the net and can't find any actual anecdotal "I shot my deer with an EP out of my 458 socom and..."

So you can be the first to field test them and write a review. I certainly wouldn’t balk at using them simply because somebody else hasn’t done it yet. In absolute worst case, they should work at least as well as a cast or solid bullet.
I have enough confidence in them to rely upon them in my carry loads. I used to carry Gold Dots but I now feel these Lehigh bullets are superior.

In addition to Underwood, Black Hills is selling ammo loaded with these bullets now. They call it their Honey Badger line. They must feel confident the bullets will work as intended too.

I’ve noticed a lot of negative posts on certain items from people who have never tried them but have heard someone else slamming the item so they feel the need to jump on the negative bandwagon. Then there is the “if it isn’t hard cast with a large meplat, it’s worthless” mindset.
I wonder how many experts who are saying these bullets won’t work have actually used them?

I also get quite a few negative comments on the .357 Sig as my choice of carry round. The popular consensus is that since the Sig round won’t launch a heavy bullet quite as well as a .357 magnum, it’s a vastly inferior cartridge and I would be better off carrying almost anything else, even a 9MM. These opinions also mostly come from people who have never used the round.
Frankly, I prefer to do my own thinking.

stagpanther · September 25, 2018, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Check your game laws. A lot of states use wording such as "bullet meant to expand".
This would eliminate the use of the EP right there.

Already addressed that above.

stagpanther · September 25, 2018, 04:08 PM

Quote:

So you can be the first to field test them and write a review. I certainly wouldn’t balk at using them simply because somebody else hasn’t done it yet. In absolute worst case, they should work at least as well as a cast or solid bullet.
I have enough confidence in them to rely upon them in my carry loads. I used to carry Gold Dots but I now feel these Lehigh bullets are superior.

In addition to Underwood, Black Hills is selling ammo loaded with these bullets now. They call it their Honey Badger line. They must feel confident the bullets will work as intended too.

I’ve noticed a lot of negative posts on certain items from people who have never tried them but have heard someone else slamming the item so they feel the need to jump on the negative bandwagon. Then there is the “if it isn’t hard cast with a large meplat, it’s worthless” mindset.
I wonder how many experts who are saying these bullets won’t work have actually used them?

I also get quite a few negative comments on the .357 Sig as my choice of carry round. The popular consensus is that since the Sig round won’t launch a heavy bullet quite as well as a .357 magnum, it’s a vastly inferior cartridge and I would be better off carrying almost anything else, even a 9MM. These opinions also mostly come from people who have never used the round.
Frankly, I prefer to do my own thinking.

+1

Gold dots are legendary--and I have thousands of them--but I'll be darned if I ever got them to shoot more accurately than other pistol bullets. LOL Their hot cors, on the other hand do extremely well in some cartridges inclined towards shorter flat-based style bullets.

briandg · September 25, 2018, 04:56 PM

To my knowledge, these things are still literally unproven. You would think that the internet would just be flooded with information from hog hunters, deer hunters, people who have shot actual living game and not only observed the effects but then did a full necropsy and documented it. dressing a deer in a garage and taking a video isn't good enough, we need dozens. The big makers have always sent people out in the field to do testing, and these bullets were just put in the hands of youtube shooters.

Maybe they will prove themselves to be more deadly than smallpox. Time will tell. Until I find a lot of information I'm going to put them in a category of "i wouldn't trust my life or a deer's life on it". I suggest that you also use a more traditional round.

The argument that it can't be any worse than a solid lead, or other round that fails isn't valid, all that says is that if it fails, well, lots of other things fail as well, and we should just let it go at that. Shooting a deer with a .45 musket ball will kill it, but for over a century we have spent billions of dollars and millions of hours improving on that lead musket ball, and that lead musket ball can only claim superiority to a glass marble or steel ball bearing.

Working in gel isn't the same as working in live game. If lehiegh had put dozens of men in the field with an organized hog hunt and done a scientific breakdown of the results, I'd call it good and pretty much accept the results.

My thoughts are "no" simply because you are about to drop as much as $100 maybe getting enough to sight in and test them, then go out for game. You don't really know what will happen. What you do know is that you can get good results from any of a dozen or more traditional rounds that have been proven by time.

A while back I went to my range, there were three of those things scattered on the ground, unfired, up at the twenty foot mark. WTH? Those weren't accidentally dropped, nobody loads a .380 magazine up at the targets when a range is otherwise occupied. Sure, you can walk up and fire a magazine, but it's unlikely that someone will allow you to take the range over completely for the time it takes to test a box of ammo.

The impression that I have of the event is that the gun failed to work with them. The guy didn't even bother to pick them up.

Again, this is practically meaningless in any real sense, but it does raise questions for me. Who walks away from several dollars worth of ammo, and why?

I've often wondered why they cnc machine them. We swage lead, and with sufficiently powerful equipment those things could be easily swaged from bronze or brass, or even straight copper. They could have been done by powder metallurgy. But that doesn't sound as good, and there are other reasons, I'm sure, but they went to a great amount of effort that wasn't truly necessary.

stagpanther · September 25, 2018, 05:52 PM

Well, found one account on FB about a 357 mag EP dropping a pretty big bear (right here in the state I live in, no less).

https://www.facebook.com/underwoodammo/

scroll down to the 400 lb + black bear.

briandg · September 25, 2018, 09:46 PM

Well, here we have a single report of a man who dropped a black bear dead on the spot with a single round from a 357. Why would I give much credibility to that? Because it was on facebook? because there were pictures?

As I said, one account means nothing. two, ten, twenty, all single events, posted casually, maybe untruthfully, a scattered bunch of unconfirmed anecdotal statements isn't something to judge it on. Trust these at your own risk.

When these companies go on managed hunts with observers, and kill a good number of living critters and show me the results I might believe in them. Until then, I don't have to buy them, and I also still have the right to express my doubts based on the lack of evidence.

September 23, 2018, 06:22 PM	#1
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	Extreme Penetrator Bullets--Good for hunting? The 300gr Lehigh extreme penetrator bullets are some of the most accurate bullets out of my 458 socom AR build. Lehigh says they perform some kind of wound damage enlarging the would channel to equal that of a conventional expanding bullet. I've read some net wisdom that claims this is false and it's not a good hunting bullet. Point is--I'd like to use it for deer inside of 200 yds since it performs so well out of my AR--but don't know if it's up to the task of a quick ethical kill (assuming I do my part). Part of me says "what the heck--even if it doesn't expand a nearly half inch hole is still pretty big." opinions/suggestions? __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!* Last edited by stagpanther; September 23, 2018 at 06:27 PM.

September 23, 2018, 09:45 PM	#5
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	There is no prohibition against the use of the bullet in Maine. I only want to use it because it performs very well in the 458 socom--at least mine. I thought about testing it--but was hoping someone could say either "yep--bang flop for me" or "I got a complete pass-through with no blood trail." Many 458 bullets are obviously designed for big-bore dangerous game cartridges--but many are also designed for 45-70 velocities--which the 458 socom emulates at moderate loads. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

September 24, 2018, 10:38 AM	#8
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	I bought some for the .458 SOCOM and for the .475 Tremor (even meaner looking, since they're intended for revolvers and have a massive meplat). But I have not, yet, used any. Past experience with other bullets has made me wonder the same as you: Will it be a quick enough kill? I don't question whether or not it will kill - just whether it will be quick enough. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

September 25, 2018, 12:16 PM	#13
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...unless the bullet has some sort of meplat or flat point..." Like a muzzle loader's round ball? "...the "Phillips head" design..." Is marketing nonsense. The Lehigh Extreme Penetrator bullet is just another solid copper bullet that will do exactly the same thing any other like solid copper bullet(like Barnes') will do. A 300 grain, .458" bullet at ~ 1700 to 1800 FPS, placed correctly, will drop anything you care to hunt. Hunting regs aside. Not that you should ignore them. "...Moose maybe, definitely bear..." Neither require extreme penetration. A regular SP will kill either one of 'em with no fuss. Nice of Lehigh to have load data on their site. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

September 25, 2018, 01:53 PM	#15
Bottom Gun Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 1998 Location: Arizona Territory Posts: 1,092	The videos I’ve seen of both the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator and Xtreme Defense bullets have been impressive. They have outperformed everything else tested in ballistics gel. Personally, I think the Lehigh bullets make good sense and I’ve started using them in .357 Sig for woods carry. __________________ NRA Life Member Mechanical engineers have their moments.

September 23, 2018, 08:00 PM	#2
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,965	Go to the hobby or craft store and buy your self a block of clay. I used to use duxseal. Form it into a long rectangular block and crank a round or two into it. Reshape the block after each shot. BUT, with a sharp knife, after each shot, split the block down the middle gently. This will allow you to inspect a simulated wound channel. I use Bentonite for all my tests. Wally World has it in 5 lb bags but I buy it in 50 lb bags at farm & ranch stores.

September 23, 2018, 08:18 PM	#3
wv109323 Member Join Date: December 1, 2012 Posts: 18	A bullet is designed for performance at a certain velocity. I would go to the manufacturer and ask about the bullet. I am guessing it is meant for large animals such as in Africa. I doubt you get much expansion but you should not need it for deer. To lessen meat damage I would not want much expansion. Where people get in trouble is when they use a pistol bullet at rifle velocities or vice versa.

September 23, 2018, 08:34 PM	#4
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,249	A .45 Caliber hole through a deer is going to kill it in short order. However, what is the game laws in your state? Most require an expanding bullet, your description of the bullet in question makes it sound like it wouldn't be legal. __________________ NRA Life Member

September 24, 2018, 06:44 AM	#6
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	Here's my take: Yes, a .45" hole through a critter might be a killer BUT unless the bullet has some sort of meplat or flat point, tissue damage may be inadequate. African hunters use FMJRN bullets for all sorts of game BUT from my reading of the "old timers" books, they often aimed to hit bone(shoulder, spine, skull) on the lighter game animals. A broken shoulder sends shards of bone through the chest cavity and a critter with a broken shoulder doesn't run far so the professional trackers soon find them. I'm suggesting that anything labelled "penetrator" isn't likely to produce a suitable wound track when delivered to a deer's lungs.

September 24, 2018, 10:08 PM	#9
Grey_Lion Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2018 Location: Baton Rouge - Louisiana Posts: 407	I'm surprised no-one seems to bring up safety first. You have to be a lot more careful with a round designed to penetrate as it will likely pass through the animal and continue on. I believe that the states requiring an expanding round do so for two reasons - one is to take down the game which an expanding round will more reliably do quickly and another is to prevent a round from traveling half a mile or more if you only graze the animal or miss entirely. So I'd ask you - what is it that you are hunting that might need a round designed strictly for it's penetration qualities? This isn't something I'd think you'd use for deer. Seems like more something you'd use for large trophies. Moose maybe, definitely bear, or on safari. I'd think a penetrator round would be to pass through deep fat layers and / or think bone. I'd recommend you keep looking for regular ammo for your weapons until you find or make a load it "likes" :-)

September 25, 2018, 03:32 PM	#17
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	Check your game laws. A lot of states use wording such as "bullet meant to expand". This would eliminate the use of the EP right there. __________________ When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...

September 25, 2018, 04:56 PM	#21
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	To my knowledge, these things are still literally unproven. You would think that the internet would just be flooded with information from hog hunters, deer hunters, people who have shot actual living game and not only observed the effects but then did a full necropsy and documented it. dressing a deer in a garage and taking a video isn't good enough, we need dozens. The big makers have always sent people out in the field to do testing, and these bullets were just put in the hands of youtube shooters. Maybe they will prove themselves to be more deadly than smallpox. Time will tell. Until I find a lot of information I'm going to put them in a category of "i wouldn't trust my life or a deer's life on it". I suggest that you also use a more traditional round. The argument that it can't be any worse than a solid lead, or other round that fails isn't valid, all that says is that if it fails, well, lots of other things fail as well, and we should just let it go at that. Shooting a deer with a .45 musket ball will kill it, but for over a century we have spent billions of dollars and millions of hours improving on that lead musket ball, and that lead musket ball can only claim superiority to a glass marble or steel ball bearing. Working in gel isn't the same as working in live game. If lehiegh had put dozens of men in the field with an organized hog hunt and done a scientific breakdown of the results, I'd call it good and pretty much accept the results. My thoughts are "no" simply because you are about to drop as much as $100 maybe getting enough to sight in and test them, then go out for game. You don't really know what will happen. What you do know is that you can get good results from any of a dozen or more traditional rounds that have been proven by time. A while back I went to my range, there were three of those things scattered on the ground, unfired, up at the twenty foot mark. WTH? Those weren't accidentally dropped, nobody loads a .380 magazine up at the targets when a range is otherwise occupied. Sure, you can walk up and fire a magazine, but it's unlikely that someone will allow you to take the range over completely for the time it takes to test a box of ammo. The impression that I have of the event is that the gun failed to work with them. The guy didn't even bother to pick them up. Again, this is practically meaningless in any real sense, but it does raise questions for me. Who walks away from several dollars worth of ammo, and why? I've often wondered why they cnc machine them. We swage lead, and with sufficiently powerful equipment those things could be easily swaged from bronze or brass, or even straight copper. They could have been done by powder metallurgy. But that doesn't sound as good, and there are other reasons, I'm sure, but they went to a great amount of effort that wasn't truly necessary. __________________ None.

September 25, 2018, 05:52 PM	#22
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,789	Well, found one account on FB about a 357 mag EP dropping a pretty big bear (right here in the state I live in, no less). https://www.facebook.com/underwoodammo/ scroll down to the 400 lb + black bear. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

September 25, 2018, 09:46 PM	#23
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	Well, here we have a single report of a man who dropped a black bear dead on the spot with a single round from a 357. Why would I give much credibility to that? Because it was on facebook? because there were pictures? As I said, one account means nothing. two, ten, twenty, all single events, posted casually, maybe untruthfully, a scattered bunch of unconfirmed anecdotal statements isn't something to judge it on. Trust these at your own risk. When these companies go on managed hunts with observers, and kill a good number of living critters and show me the results I might believe in them. Until then, I don't have to buy them, and I also still have the right to express my doubts based on the lack of evidence. __________________ None.