The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old March 17, 2018, 01:18 PM   #1
pnac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2008
Posts: 550
It begins. Florida man has guns taken

Florida man has guns taken and involuntarily committed to a mental facility for a psychiatric exam. What I got from the article is, that if you live in Florida, you are fair game for any family member or LEO that could benefit from having you committed under the new law.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...n-control-law/

After scrolling past all the ads where the article continues (the modern equivalent of the old "continued on page 19F), or whatever) it appears that I might have jumped the shark in this case. This guy seems to really be a nutcase, although I stand by my original contention that the potential for abuse is a problem.

My apologies for any confusion.
__________________
In my hour of darkness
In my time of need
Oh Lord grant me vision
Oh Lord grant me speed - Gram Parsons

Last edited by pnac; March 17, 2018 at 02:09 PM. Reason: Clarification
pnac is offline  
Old March 17, 2018, 01:55 PM   #2
SSA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2010
Posts: 641
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/br...316-story.html

From the article:

Quote:
He had some prior arrests in Pennsylvania, records show.

Police were called after the man turned off the main electrical breakers to the condo building in Lighthouse Point, court records show. The South Florida Sun Sentinel is not identifying the man because of his medical condition.

The man told officers he “was being targeted and burglarized by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and a neighbor who lives in [his] building,” the judge wrote in his order. “[He] could not describe the neighbor but stated that the neighbor [can] ‘shape shift, he can change heights and I’m not sure where he comes from’ and ‘to be honest, he looks like Osama Bin Laden.’”

He also told officers that he had to turn off the electrical breakers because “they are electrocuting me through my legs.”
His neighbors might be glad he's separated from his guns.
SSA is offline  
Old March 17, 2018, 01:57 PM   #3
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 21,664
"...issued the state’s first order temporarily removing guns from a person..."

"...he was “taken to a hospital for involuntary psychiatric treatment.”...

he man told officers he “was being targeted and burglarized by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and a neighbor who lives in [his] building,” the judge wrote in his order. “[He] could not describe the neighbor but stated that the neighbor [can] ‘shape shift, he can change heights and I’m not sure where he comes from’ and ‘to be honest, he looks like Osama Bin Laden.’”

He also told officers that he had to turn off the electrical breakers because “they are electrocuting me through my legs.”
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/br...316-story.html

I haven't read the law so I don't know all the details of how it changes things, but frankly, if the information I quoted above is accurate, I don't see a big problem here. I think it's always been possible to confiscate the guns of a person who is a danger to themselves or others.

Also, I'm not opposed to temporarily confiscating guns from a person who has lost touch with reality.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old March 17, 2018, 02:06 PM   #4
NoSecondBest
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 7, 2009
Location: Western New York
Posts: 2,008
pnac,
It's a waste of everyone's time if you only supply half a story trying to make a point that isn't valid. This is the meaning of "fake news". You can't win any arguments going about it this way. Sounds like someone who shouldn't have guns....at least for a while.
NoSecondBest is offline  
Old March 17, 2018, 02:06 PM   #5
In The Ten Ring
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2018
Posts: 382
Looks like FL has just gotten back to the days of "guys in white coats" and state mental hospitals.
In The Ten Ring is offline  
Old March 17, 2018, 02:10 PM   #6
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 11,036
Quote:
The man was also taken to a hospital for involuntary psychiatric treatment under the state’s Baker Act. But the civil ruling removing his access to guns and ammunition was granted under the new legislation — which permits confiscating guns from people who have not been committed but are deemed a potential risk to themselves or others, according to the order signed by Broward’s Chief Judge Jack Tuter.
As usual, everything you see in the media is true unless you have first-hand knowledge of the facts. (Which I don't.)

The guns were taken temporarily. If I understand it, Florida's Baker Act is not a commitment (and the article mentions that the new law allows removing guns from people who have not been committed) for treatment, it's an admission for evaluation. I think all states have provision for this, and it doesn't result in the person being prohibited unless the evaluation leads to an involuntary commitment.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old March 17, 2018, 02:19 PM   #7
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,069
Quote:
Originally Posted by In The Ten Ring View Post
Looks like FL has just gotten back to the days of "guys in white coats" and state mental hospitals.
Works for me.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old March 17, 2018, 02:20 PM   #8
pnac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2008
Posts: 550
You are correct No Second Best, I should have dug deeper into the article. My sincere apologies. On the bright side, maybe I can get a job at CNN, I ought to qualify!
__________________
In my hour of darkness
In my time of need
Oh Lord grant me vision
Oh Lord grant me speed - Gram Parsons
pnac is offline  
Old March 17, 2018, 02:39 PM   #9
SSA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2010
Posts: 641
CNN? That story came from Breitbart.
SSA is offline  
Old March 17, 2018, 02:49 PM   #10
pnac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2008
Posts: 550
The reference to CNN is that I only reported part of the story. It was sarcasm and I was giving CNN the benefit of doubt that they don't make up ALL their "facts". Sheesh!
__________________
In my hour of darkness
In my time of need
Oh Lord grant me vision
Oh Lord grant me speed - Gram Parsons
pnac is offline  
Old March 17, 2018, 04:04 PM   #11
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 7,594
The sad story is there are thousands of guys just like this one who are not even charged, let alone reported to NICS. Most of them are harmless; but that one who isn't hoses all of us.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old March 17, 2018, 05:01 PM   #12
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 11,036
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
The sad story is there are thousands of guys just like this one who are not even charged, let alone reported to NICS. Most of them are harmless; but that one who isn't hoses all of us.
To be clear, though -- this guy hasn't yet progressed to where he should be reported to NICS. His firearms have been taken temporarily. He has been admitted for evaluation (not for treatment as reported in the article) under the Baker Act. Unless the evaluation period results in an involuntary commitment, he will not be a prohibited person.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old March 17, 2018, 05:28 PM   #13
peterg7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2017
Posts: 178
How quickly we forget, this nation was founded by crazy men with guns, when a government tried to take them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
peterg7 is offline  
Old March 17, 2018, 06:04 PM   #14
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 7,594
Quote:
To be clear, though -- this guy hasn't yet progressed to where he should be reported to NICS. His firearms have been taken temporarily. He has been admitted for evaluation (not for treatment as reported in the article) under the Baker Act. Unless the evaluation period results in an involuntary commitment, he will not be a prohibited person.
There is actually a circuit split on this issue. Some circuits (5th) take the view that only involuntary commitments count. Others (1-3) take the view that "adjudicated mentally defective" covers a much broader category and that "other lawful authority" covers not only courts; but even just the opinions of emergency room doctors at treatment centers.

To my knowledge, the 11th Circuit has not yet addressed that issue; but it isn't crazy to say a Baker Act could permanently make you a prohibited person even if you are later released and have no problems.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old March 18, 2018, 02:49 AM   #15
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 18,439
No one can argue that dangerously unstable people should have guns. They shouldn't. Nor should they have knives, fire, chainsaws, or functional motor vehicles, or voting rights, among other things.

The trap is, who gets to decide that, before they actually do some harm???

We have a process in law to do that. The standard, since the law was passed, was that the process had to be completed, BEFORE rights were legally denied.

The new "red flag" laws make it legal to "temporarily" remove guns before the legal process even begins. There are, absolutely, cases where doing so is the best thing for public safety. HOWEVER, one cannot really know it was the best thing until after the legal process works its way through, and a judgement is made. SO, we all get tarred with the same brush, just in case.

The big risk we all face is, who decides who is, and isn't dangerously crazy, before the authorities get involved??? Just as is the case with restraining orders, the potential for abuse via false accusation is huge.

And, it doesn't even need to be a deliberately false accusation. There are people today, and in ever increasing numbers, that believe you and I are dangerously crazy just because you HAVE guns. That alone is enough reason for them to call the cops, and they think they are doing the right thing by doing it!

This isn't just a double edged sword, its a double edged sword without guard, quilions, or even a grip. Can it be wielded without injury? Yes, but one must be extremely careful, and to date, there is no evidence that the authorities will be any more careful with it than they are with any other laws...
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.06739 seconds with 8 queries