Optic advice (plus, I'm an idiot...)

[Carmike]

Hello all,

I recently purchased a Mossberg MVP rifle in 308. I *thought* I was buying the Scout model (with open sites), which I wanted because I prefer plinking with open sites, and where I hunt, the longest possible shot is less than 100 yards, so an optic isn't necessary. Turns out I bought the Predator model, which doesn't come with open sites.

Anyways, the guy sent me plenty of photos and in correspondence correctly identified the model of the gun. I don't know how I missed it, but I did. Ultimately, he drove many miles to meet and since I had given him my word that I would purchase the gun, I felt it only right that I stick to my word and buy it.

I now have a gun in a caliber I wanted (.308), but that I had intended to use as a fun plinker that I wouldn't have to worry about getting a little dinged or scratched up. It would've come on some deer drives with me and been used as a loaner/back-up at deer camp (or I'd use it and loan out my (scoped) 7mm-08 to any kids/new guys).

I'd still like to use it for that purpose, but I'm not sure the best way to go about that. I do not want to put a scope on it, though if it's the only option, I'd settle for one of very low (or even no) magnification. If it isn't obvious by now, I should also add that I'm not all that experienced with the ins and outs of optics, so forgive any ignorance. Any suggestions?

[mehavey]

I do not want to put a scope on it.

Without a front sight on the barrel.... It's optics time.
Put a slimline 1x4 on it. http://www.reloaderaddict.com/best-1...-optic-review/

[std7mag]

A red dot is always an option.

[eastbank]

I would put a 2x7 of your choice on it. I have killed a pile of deer with a 2x7 on 308,s and 3006,s.

[jmr40]

Put a 1-4X20 or 2-7X32 scope on there and you'll never go back to iron sights. A decent 2-7X can be bought for less money if a few dollars is that important to you. At 2X they are pretty fast, but the difference between 2X and 1X on the low end is pretty dramatic up close. Plus the 1-4X's can be pretty light. If you do need to shoot farther than 100-150 yards the ability to go up to 7X is a plus so it depends on which is more important to you.

[zukiphile]

I recommend a fixed power 2.5x20 for your use. Several manufacturers have sold them through the years. Barska makes one you can buy for less than $50. I have some Tascos that are good too if you like a bold shotgun reticle. I have a BSA which has a thinner reticle and less eye relief. I do not have a Sun Optics or Leupold, both of which are pricier.

The Barska lists at 10 ounces, 7.5 inches long, a six inch eye relief. I use them on ARs in 22lr and 5.56 from 25 to 100 yards. Ignore their ad copy; it isn't a pistol scope. https://www.barska.com/2-5x20mm-comp...pe-barska.html

They are robust, clear at close distance and low enough in magnification that the wobble isn't distracting in the standing position. The eye relief is great enough that you will see a considerable amount of unmagnified field of view. Nothing on it is electronic, so you won't worry about batteries.

[Don Fischer]

I've got 2 3/4x, 1-4x and 2-7x scopes. The 2 3/4x is a great hunting scope, it's on my 30-06. The 2-7x's are on a 6.5x55 and a 243. I don't need anymore than that and they don't make the rifles they are on look like scope with a rifle mounted on it. They are very fast to use with wide field of view. the 1-4x is on my 308 and all I shoot with it are cast bullet's these day's, great scope! All of these scope's are Redfield but I've been a Redfield fan a lot of years. the 2 3/4x and the 1-4x re both old Denver scope's. The two 2-7x's are Leopold made scopes.

[JeepHammer]

Carmike,
Go DIRECTLY to a QUALIFIED gunsmith and have a front sight dovetail BLOCK mount installed on the barrel.
This will be a flat spot machined on the top of the barrel (not deep) and a dovetail block SILVER SOLDERED onto the barrel.
This is cheap & easy for any Qualified & equipped gunsmith.

This will give you a windage adjustable front sight that's easily removable if you choose optics later on.
Military snipers have this arrangement, doesn't weaken the barrel, doesn't snag on things, allows for attaching a wide variety of match grade iron sights to the barrel any time you want.

Since you are ONLY removing material for a flat spot, instead of digging in to cut a dovetail in the barrel, you remove very little material,
With electrical induction heating, silver soldering the lug on the barrel won't screw up the finish (most times, some of that cheap spray on coating blisters).

This arrangement allows you to use a wide variety of front sight, and get the front sight up off the barrel for shooting comfort & getting up off a hot barrel.
This allows you to use ANY style of front 'Blade' (blade, post, dot, cross hair, aperture, ect.) in any height you choose.

A second choice, if the barrel is thick enough, is cutting a dovetail in the barrel (crossways) to allow for windage adjustment. See any of the older thick barrel .22 LR rifles.
I consider this a second choice since it makes a thin spot in the barrel.
This is cheap to do, a standard 60* cutting tool is about $30 and about any machine shop can make the cut on a head mill.
Since the front sight is staked into place, this doesn't take a lot of hand fitting to do.
Front sights run anywhere from $20 to over $100, but are usually blade type.

A third choice is a 'half round' or 'Ramp' mount with blade sticking up. These require drilling & tapping the barrel for screws which is simple for a gunsmith, but machine shops hate blind holes so they drill through into the bore, and they don't often have a vertical tapping table to get threading correct.
These are small parts, tool & die maker and gunsmith tools, common machine shops don't often have tapping tables.
You can substitute a tapping table, using a head mill to stright tap the holes, but common machine shops don't like doing that either.

In my shop a silver soldered or brazed dovetail block would run under $100, and I might have an old national match front sight laying around...
NM sights are .500" wide, 60* dovetail, but some dovetails are 3/8" instead of 1/2", and for a .308 I would recommend 1/2" dovetail like NM uses.

Brownells has a HUGE selection of sights, but I haven't seen the solder on base in a long time. It's not hard to make the 60* dovetail, 1/2" wide for the base, it's literally common stock with sides cut for 60* dovetail, really simple basic machining that allows you to use any of the NM sights you want.

[Carmike]

Ok, so I'm gathering there's no easy way to just glue on a front site and rear sight?

[zukiphile]

There are some clamp-on front sights, but they are pricey and not the rugged sort of arrangement you seem to seek.

[eastbank]

I have found any scope with 20mm bell to be not to good at dawn or at dusk, s you may need all the light you can get then. one of the best scopes I have found has been the 2.5x8-36 leupold scope for early or late shooting.

[JeepHammer]

NOW YOU WANT A REAR SIGHT TOO!

Honestly, mounting front & rear sights/optics mounts are gunsmith's bread & butter!
Less than an hour usually (if you have the proper gunsmith tools) and a snap to do.
This is why I say a QUALIFIED gunsmith, not common machine shop or some goof at a gun store.
Crusty OLD gunsmiths have all the tools, know short cuts and do exactly what is required for excellent results...

One short cut that EXACTLY centers the barreled action is to use centers on a long head mill bed.
Takes about two minutes to line up front & rear sights directly with the BORE (not outside profile of barrel or receiver) and allows for milling/drilling PRECISELY with the bore.
This isn't anything that a general machinist would be set up for, and the gun shop goof wouldn't have the tools to do.

This isn't a big deal, and it won't break the bank to fix. You will have to shell out some bucks, but it's not the budget buster you might think...

[JeepHammer]

Eastbank,
You are correct about small objective lense optics, but you can go too far the other way also, too large of objective which doesn't do you any good either.

The amount of light transmission depends on three things,
1. Size of objective lense.
2. Magnification, lower magnification will appear brighter.
3. Number of lenses in the optic. The more 'Gadgets' built into the optic, the more lenses it will have.
Each lense will reduce light transmission.

Objective lense over 40mm does you no good at all. The lense doesn't 'Collect' light (as some wild manufacturers/retailers claim), it simply transmits the REFLECTED light coming from the target.
Anything you see is REFLECTED light off the object you are seeing, and that light has to be reflected in your direction.
Light reflected in different directions does you no good, and the objective doesn't jump out and round up light reflected in different directions.

Your eye pupal is about 6mm in diameter, OCULAR output larger than 6mm does you zero good since your eye can't accept it.

The higher the magnification, the SMALLER the ocular output, so high magnification reduces the light column delivered to your eye.

While the latest lenses transmit light better, they aren't anywhere near 100%.
The more lenses in the optic, the more light will hit impurities, defects, etc and be reduced.
Vairable magnification optics have a BUNCH of lenses, double those lenses if the reticle is 'Scalable'.
While common vairable magnification optics can change focal plane 6 times, a scalable reticle can have twice as many focal plane changes and twice as many lenses, all reducing transmitted light.

There is a reason I recommend FIXED power optics in reasonable magnification for hunting or fixed range target shooting...
Fixed power means a lot more light transmission, fixed power means a lot less internal adjusting parts that can't go wrong, making the optic more rugged, the price is MUCH cheaper, the list goes on...

For hunting, field of view is a big deal! You want to get on target, and be able to track that target...
When you are looking through a bar drink swizzle stick, it's real hard to find the target & nearly impossible to track the target.
Really clear optics help on those cloudy days, at day break or dusk.
Without a dozen adjustments, you are on target FAST, you can see the target, you can track the target, and you don't have to worry *IF* all the adjustments are correct or not...

With today's "Internet Experts" it's hard to get common sense through to people, it won't fit on a bumper sticker or facebag meme, and it's boring since you have to read/learn something, but for those willing to educate themselves, it will save a ton of time & money, and means satisfaction with what you have instead of chasing the 'Next Big Thing'...

[Carmike]

Thanks for the advice re: getting a front site installed. We have a few gunsmiths in town...I'm not sure how old and crusty they are, but I can give them a call.

I've never used a red dot before. I assume they're rugged enough to handle the random encounter with branches, cattails, etc.?

[JeepHammer]

Some are $30 and are pretty much battery sucking crap.
Some are less than 3 MOA but start out about $100 and go up to over $1,000
I'd look for one that is 'Water Resistant to 50 or 100 meters', they are usually fairly well built.

Since there aren't any moving lenses, they are inherently rugged, not much to knock loose.
The cheap ones will knock lenses loose with .308 recoil over time, so be aware of that.
It's $30 several times or $150-300 once, and no shooting days ruined.

One tip is to get one with a dot brightness that will turn DOWN.
Saves battery & reduces the dot size that can hide your target.
With a barely visible 'Dot' your groups get smaller.

Another tip is to put a label on your ammo box reminding you to turn the thing OFF when you are done!
Yup, been there, done that, had to leave the range to get batteries...

I suggest a version that uses common batteries... Some of the batteries are hard to find, usually made in 'China' and can leak even when they aren't dead. Ask me how I know that...

The better units that use common AA batteries aren't particularly cheap, but they are long lived and get you on target really quickly with a little practice.
I still recommend iron sights for every application short of a dedicated bench rifle, optics of any kind fail and iron sights keep the hunt/range day on track...

[fredvon4]

I managed this same screw up some few years back

Put a want ad on several sites for a trade explained why

Took a few mis steps to iron out cross state FFL and right of refusal... both of us

BUT in the end...cost of mail and transfer got me what I wanted and he what HE wanted...win win... and taught me to be MUCH more careful on what I decide to BUY

[jamaica]

I hate to say it, but as you age the ol eyes lose something too. I am going to suggest that you put a scope on that rifle. A 4 power would do fine for deer sized critters. If you are using it for varmints a 6 power is better. You will love it once you get the hang of it.

[T. O'Heir]

Not many commercial hunting rifles come with iron sights any more. Of all the cf rifles Mossberg sells, only their 'Patrol' and the daft 'Scout' has iron sights. And they're not great as iron sights go.
A scope will give you about a half hour more shooting time at dawn and dusk. Lets you see the target better so you can place the shot better too. You must decided on a budget for optics first.
A red dot is usually too big for accurate shooting at 100 yards. A 2 or 3 MOA dot will cover the entire black on a standard sighting target.
A front sight dovetail BLOCK requires there be enough barrel to cut the dovetail(that requires a milling machine to do right.). A good smithy will tell you if there is enough. A crappy smithy will just cut and possibly ruin the barrel. Just be advised that good smithy's are very busy guys and just installing a sight of any kind can take a fair bit of time.

[Carmike]

Thanks for all the input, guys. I guess one thing is I just enjoy shooting with iron sights more than I do with scopes. Dunno why--it's certainly not because I'm more accurate with them.

Most of my shooting is just for fun out on the back 40, terrorizing old two liters and empty paint cans, so that's why I was hoping to get a "fun gun" that I wouldn't have to worry about too much (this rifle isn't exactly top of the line that might also get used in deer camp from time to time when we're pushing deer. For sitting in a stand, my primary hunting rifle does have a scope, so I understand the improved vision during low light periods.

[dgludwig]

Thanks for all the input, guys. I guess one thing is I just enjoy shooting with iron sights more than I do with scopes.

Nothing wrong with that-plus, any rifle "handles" better sans an optic. You might want to consider installing a receiver (peep aperture) sight-much faster to acquire a good target image with a peep than with conventional irons.

[blackwidowp61]

I believe that Williams has a set of sights (peep or otherwise) that you can mount on a pic rail. Gives you options...

[tobnpr]

If you're determined to have open sights, good suggestions above. I like Williams fiber optic ones, but keep in mind that having quality sights furnished/installed will run north of $150 and likely won't increase the value of the rifle since so few people use them anymore.

A red dot or holographic sight (red dots are much less expensive) is probably the path of least resistance and cost here.

[mehavey]

Without a front sight (bare barrel), Williams' ain't gonna work.

Also, a Red Dot on a bolt action 308 Winchester is really kinda under underwhelming -- even for a plinker
BTW: (308 <==> Plinker ... uuuuhhh...NOT )

'Still recommend that slim-line 1x4.
Then you have 'mission' options.

[Don Fischer]

I have a 1903 Springfield built by Paut Jaeger in 1945, It has open sight's and the front sight is a post on a steel tube that slides on over the barrel. Pretty sure it is silver soldered on. Can't tell you how it works as I have never used it.



I'm thinking your a young man. Young men have good eye's, old men have 2 3/4x scopes!

[tobnpr]

Without a front sight (bare barrel), Williams' ain't gonna work.

Which is why you'd install a Williams front sight....

https://williamsgunsight.com/product...s-shorty-ramp/