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Old March 8, 2018, 08:56 PM   #1
Aguila Blanca
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Why gun bans aren't the answer

Because guns aren't the problem.

[Note: I asked permission of the mods to post this, since it isn't directly gun-related. But IMHO it does relate to the issues currently being debated about how to protect our schools, and there are people out there who seem to consider attacks on schools as all being "gun violence." To them, then, the answer is to get rid of the guns.]

I think most of us on this forum agree that there is no simple solution. President Trump has proposed arming teachers and hardening the schools, proposals that were met with ridicule and derision by the anti-gun forces.

Really?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/07...olice-say.html

Hard on the heels of the Parkland shooting, a high school student in Utah tried to take out a bunch of people in his high school. Did he use an AR-15? Nope. Maybe a Glock with "high-capacity" magazines? Nope.

He used a bomb in a backpack. Why do I think the anti-gun forces don't want the populace to know about this one, because it does two things:
  1. It puts the lie to their narrative that all violence is "gun violence."
  2. It suggests (rather strongly, IMHO) that Trump was right and that the nation needs to start looking at ways to harden schools.

The mods allowed me to post this if I promised not to make it political. Please address the issue and don't get the discussion closed by veering off into politics. This is about school safety and gun (or not gun) control.

Thank you.
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Old March 8, 2018, 10:17 PM   #2
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The real problem is neither guns, nor soft-target schools.

The real problem is that over the past 35-40 years, we have systematically destroyed what it takes to raise -- and be -- boys/young men who understand who they are, and who they ought to be.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/5747282256001/

They that sow the wind... shall reap the whirlwind (Hosea 8-7)
And boy... we've now got it in spades.



Until we recognize (much less solve) that problem, we are locked into an ever tightening spiral of the fatal fascination of the fortress.
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Old March 9, 2018, 09:02 AM   #3
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Why do I think the anti-gun forces don't want the populace to know about this one
I don't get it. Who said that anti-gun force doesn't want the populace to know about this one? Were they hiding it? Additionally, you realize this was an attempt that didn't happen? There have been over 100 threats, letters, etc in just my county alone since FL happened 2 weeks ago, should the media be blowing up each one of those that didn't pan out?

If you want to show that gun control doesn't work, look at the first world countries that are extremely strict with guns and show how its not working for them. That would at least be a case to look at although even those results are generalizable to us.
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Old March 9, 2018, 09:16 AM   #4
Aguila Blanca
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Originally Posted by adamBomb
I don't get it. Who said that anti-gun force doesn't want the populace to know about this one? Were they hiding it? Additionally, you realize this was an attempt that didn't happen?
What do you mean, it "didn't happen"? The bomb was in the school, verified by a bomb-sniffing dog, and disposed of by a bomb squad. It most certainly did happen. Fortunately, it was intercepted before the bomb detonated, but the incident happened.

If a kid brought an AR-15 into a school, tried to shoot people, and his ammo misfired, would you say there was no incident?
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Old March 9, 2018, 09:27 AM   #5
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What do you mean, it "didn't happen"? The bomb was in the school, verified by a bomb-sniffing dog, and disposed of by a bomb squad. It most certainly did happen. Fortunately, it was intercepted before the bomb detonated, but the incident happened.

If a kid brought an AR-15 into a school, tried to shoot people, and his ammo misfired, would you say there was no incident?
It was a failed attempt. There were no injuries. No deaths. As in there was a plan to kill a bunch of people and it didn't happen; I never said there was no incident; I was referring to a plan that didn't pan out. You are detracting from my point and not responding to the issues I brought up.
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Old March 9, 2018, 09:52 AM   #6
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A bomb in a school that failed to go off is a VERY different matter than a threat that's nothing more than a threat.

The point of mentioning this incident is that "gun" control won't stop attacks on schools. Remember, the primary weapon at Columbine was bombs, but they failed to detonate. Farther back in history, the worst school massacre in U.S. histry was carried out with dynamite, not guns. (1927, Bath Township, Michigan, 44 dead and 58 injured. Would have been worse but the charges under one wing of the school didn't go off.)
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Old March 9, 2018, 10:10 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamBomb
It was a failed attempt. There were no injuries. No deaths. As in there was a plan to kill a bunch of people and it didn't happen; I never said there was no incident; I was referring to a plan that didn't pan out. You are detracting from my point and not responding to the issues I brought up.
This was an unsuccessful attempt, like the underwear bomber, rather than an attempt that didn't happen. It wasn't one of hundreds of prank calls.

It seems fair to note the media reaction to it. News media tell us stories, and they are most comfortable with well worn patterns for their stories. The current story is the one being repeated about it finally being time to restrict rifle sales "sensibly". It's an easy story to tell when you can find a legislator to interview about his brave new bill banning x, y and z. The legislator gets free publicity and the medium personality gets to fill a column or a spot.

An ISIS enthusiast who arranged to kill students in a school with a bomb he made doesn't float on that wave of media enthusiasm. It may also not work with sensibilities about stirring controversy over domestic ISIS enthusiasm, or other dangers to schools that might diffuse the impact of a shooting story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca
It suggests (rather strongly, IMHO) that Trump was right and that the nation needs to start looking at ways to harden schools.
I hope this doesn't happen. I would prefer children attend school in a fairly open environment with lots of open doors on warm days and without a lot of CYA security theater. Teachers should be able to carry concealed just like any other adult, but metal detectors and locked bullet proof doors, the easiest and therefore most likely metric for someone in government having "done something" in response to a rare event seems to lack proportion.

Last edited by zukiphile; March 9, 2018 at 10:47 AM.
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Old March 9, 2018, 11:19 AM   #8
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Aren't Schools "bomb free zones"???

As long as schools still teach chemistry, you cannot stop an intelligent child, who has the will to do so, from making a bomb.

And, all the chemicals needed are already at the school, and are in nearly every home in America.
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Old March 9, 2018, 12:36 PM   #9
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The real problem is neither guns, nor soft-target schools.

The real problem is that over the past 35-40 years, we have systematically destroyed what it takes to raise -- and be -- boys/young men who understand who they are, and who they ought to be.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/5747282256001/

They that sow the wind... shall reap the whirlwind (Hosea 8-7)
And boy... we've now got it in spades.



Until we recognize (much less solve) that problem, we are locked into an ever tightening spiral of the fatal fascination of the fortress.
Agree; we already have schools that look and feel like prisons. Maybe folks will realize that objects are not the issue; bad/lack of parenting; drug epidemic (legal and illegal), and a complete breakdown of the family unit seem to be more of the CAUSES. treating after-effects and symptoms do nothing to prevent the causes
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Old March 9, 2018, 01:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
I hope this doesn't happen. I would prefer children attend school in a fairly open environment with lots of open doors on warm days and without a lot of CYA security theater. Teachers should be able to carry concealed just like any other adult, but metal detectors and locked bullet proof doors, the easiest and therefore most likely metric for someone in government having "done something" in response to a rare event seems to lack proportion.
I agree with this. In addition, all that target hardening will be money wasted. As soon as the weather is nice teachers will begin propping open those bullet proof doors. Front office staff will begin hitting the unlock button on the front gate for anyone that walks up. Metal detectors must be manned, and can quickly be defeated in the case of an armed mass murderer who will simply shoot the armed security manning the metal detector. Bullet proof doors? Are the walls simple sheetrock walls? Making an impromptu passage through a normal interior wall isn't easy, but it isn't difficult either.

All of these measures may be deterrents, and they may slow down a potential threat, but they are not all fool-proof. In addition, I would prefer schools be open. I don't want my kids feeling like they're in a prison camp.
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Old March 9, 2018, 05:13 PM   #11
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No one was left bleeding in the Utah school with the failed bomb threat. Thus no media stories are leading with it.

A characteristic that seems to be inherent in American culture is that we have an obsession with extremes at either end of the spectrum across every possible topic imaginable. We want to see the absolute best of everything and the absolute works of everything. Though we probably favor the worst over the best in most cases.

We want this in our media, be it news outlets, print, entertainment, literally everything. Mediocrity bores us to death.

We don't consciously pursue these extremes, at least not always. Some of it is definitely subconscious, and we are drawn to it like moths to a flame. I would hypothesize that there are people who are lunatics and engage in acts of violence with the hope that they will be more violent or lethal than the rest. And when they succeed, it raises the bar for the other lunatics. Probably won't be too many years before someone tops the Las Vegas massacre.

Banning guns won't cure our cultures obsession.

Theres a great song that comes to my mind, by the band Tool. Name of the song is 'Vicarious'. look it up on youtube or google the lyrincs.
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Old March 9, 2018, 10:41 PM   #12
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Kids attending school where the doors are open and the building isn't like a prison would be ideal. Like the 50's and 60's when I went to school. But, things have changed. Our grandkids attend a school that is locked. Always, unless teachers are present. Kids can only be picked by people on a list. Kids are let out of school in the back, and must walk around to the drive.

There are enough whackadoodles in the world we live in, that we aren't going to turn back the clock to that more peaceful time. I hunt and shoot on a ranch that is 35 miles from the nearest law enforcement. The school is K through 12. Some of the teachers are approved to concealed carry. The parents support the teachers being armed. Contrast this with a neice of mine that teaches in Massachusetts. She says she would quit teaching if her school had armed teachers. The culture in some regions of our great nation has changed. As one of our members stated in a post on another thread, in the future, things will change. The second ammendment is likely to be changed, probably decades from now, but changed, nonetheless.

People like most of us that like to own guns and shoot, however that looks, are the ones that stand to lose. Is the adamant stance that no matter what there will be no compromise on gun laws helping our cause? Or is it driving us towards the unthinkable situation where politically we cannot overcome gun control advocacy and are forced into a catastrophic loss of the RKBA?
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Old March 10, 2018, 05:17 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Redneck
Kids attending school where the doors are open and the building isn't like a prison would be ideal. Like the 50's and 60's when I went to school. But, things have changed.
***
There are enough whackadoodles in the world we live in, that we aren't going to turn back the clock to that more peaceful time.
I concede that the last half century has brought social changes that aren't improvements. It's also possible that our perception of those changes is exaggerated. People did terrible things then too, even to children. It might have made the local paper, even mention on the half hour newscast.

It wasn't put on a 24 hour loop on TV and radio with a nationally televised "town hall" that then itself was a subject of another week of 24 news loops.

I live in the area in which Sam Sheppard was convicted of murder and Amy Mihaljevic was abducted immediately adjacent to my daughter's current school in 1988 and murdered. We don't keep her indoors and we haven't stopped seeing doctors. It's amongst the nicest places I've lived and unusually safe; I wouldn't judge it by its national news history.

I also wouldn't judge school security by national news stories. I am not urging blindness to risk, just proportionality in response to risk.
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Old March 11, 2018, 12:24 PM   #14
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The root cause !!!

Quote:
The real problem is that over the past 35-40 years, we have systematically destroyed what it takes to raise -- and be -- boys/young men who understand who they are, and who they ought to be.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/5747282256001/
I personally believe that this is the root cause of many of our social problems. Not saying we can't address other aspects of the firearms issue but try telling "some" parents to do a better job on teaching values. ....

Be Safe !!!
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Old March 11, 2018, 01:57 PM   #15
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Born in 55.... by age 13 or 14 I knew 18 was approaching. Sooner or later I had to go out on my own, get a job and support my life.... in the late 60s early 70s I knew very few food stamp or welfare people

It was not hard for parents and teachers to make the case "You need to know this stuff"
AND there were solid options for those of us who were never going to get into collage due to ambition and grades..... Wood shop, auto shop, etc or even military...draft or enlistment

POINT is, we all had a similar motivation to some day be self supportive ..with a JOB

I see, as we have more and more citizens ...several generations now... where the parents are near 100% supported, living a non poverty life, and in many cases no Father figure...

Very hard to convince a student he needs to study, do home work, attend, and Graduate to get a job....just too many examples in his or her life of grand parents and parents that never really needed to go to WORK every day.....
Roof, food, cell phones, TV, electricity, water, cigarettes, Booze, some weed

Our welfare system is VERY generous...most needs are met and a lot of WANTS are met

No this is not entirely a welfare state cause for all problems. BUT I believe it contributes greatly to our societal problems
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Old March 11, 2018, 10:48 PM   #16
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This isn't about guns. They gun goes away, as soon as the media shows up.
If the shooter felt the gun was important, wouldn't they be hiding their face and identity, while trying to show off the gun they used? The media makes them their darling.
Then LE CODDLES them some more.

They need to see they won't become famous. Then, the coddling has to STOP. They
have to be sentenced to Life in Prison, at hard labor, with bread and water. 18 hour days.
NO air conditioning or TV.

We HAVE to remove the Gun Free Zone signs, and start allowing any qualified individual we're lucky enough to get to agree to it, to carry a gun in school.

NO MORE:
1. FAME
2. CODDLING
3. Gun Free Zones
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Old March 12, 2018, 08:50 AM   #17
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Quote:
Born in 55.... by age 13 or 14 I knew 18 was approaching. Sooner or later I had to go out on my own, get a job and support my life.... in the late 60s early 70s I knew very few food stamp or welfare people

It was not hard for parents and teachers to make the case "You need to know this stuff"
AND there were solid options for those of us who were never going to get into collage due to ambition and grades..... Wood shop, auto shop, etc or even military...draft or enlistment

POINT is, we all had a similar motivation to some day be self supportive ..with a JOB

I see, as we have more and more citizens ...several generations now... where the parents are near 100% supported, living a non poverty life, and in many cases no Father figure...

Very hard to convince a student he needs to study, do home work, attend, and Graduate to get a job....just too many examples in his or her life of grand parents and parents that never really needed to go to WORK every day.....
Roof, food, cell phones, TV, electricity, water, cigarettes, Booze, some weed

Our welfare system is VERY generous...most needs are met and a lot of WANTS are met

No this is not entirely a welfare state cause for all problems. BUT I believe it contributes greatly to our societal problems
Much different times. You are talking about a time when a job meant being able to afford rent/house, family, healthcare, pension, etc. Now a job does not mean those things. A job today means having to live with 4 other people to afford rent, especially ages 18-25. You might need two good incomes to barely buy a house and that is not the millenials fault, its the older generations who allowed our jobs to go overseas among about 50 other things. Kids have no pensions because you took them away. Healthcare is a disaster. Wages have not kept pace with inflation. Its not a fun world out there as an 18 yr old today. We say these kids have no respect but man read the twitter account from our president who is 70 yrs old and you can see where they are learning it from. We use to respect teachers but now parents/media respect the kids and teachers are always wrong. I could go on and on but its just a way different time. We can't put the blame on these kids and its not just being soft on them, its 50 different things that created the society we have today.

And our welfare system does have its problems but its not generous. Its complete poverty. Have you worked with people on welfare? I wouldn't want their life for one second, its terrible. I have never had to live like that and I hope I never do. I am not saying our welfare system doesn't need a complete overhaul but to make it sound anything but terrible is not true.
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Old March 12, 2018, 09:08 AM   #18
zukiphile
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The idea that DJT, a fellow who has held office for not much more than a year, has been a significant influence on youth culture isn't obvious.

Of what are you a professor?
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Old March 12, 2018, 09:48 AM   #19
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Wages have not kept pace with inflation.
But they HAVE kept up with the level of education - or what passes for it - of the current crop of teenagers.

Until education comes back around t actually teaching kids, things won't change. As long as it is easier to do nothing and collect a check, things won't change. As long as it is easier to abandon any and all family responsibilities, things won't change.

The folks who can send their kids to private/parochial schools or home school - for a reason. THOSE kids will be the future leaders - here's hoping they are being taught that ALL of the Amendments are important, not just the first.
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Old March 12, 2018, 12:36 PM   #20
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mehavey:
Quote:
The real problem is that over the past 35-40 years, we have systematically destroyed what it takes to raise -- and be -- boys/young men who understand who they are, and who they ought to be.
This. Absolutely this. I didn't watch the video link b/c I I've already reached this conclusion a long time ago.

The only two currencies left in the uber-culture driven by the social/broadcast media seems to be "money" and "fame."
I would not be surprised if the "Weds Walkout" inspires copy cats who think that they will never be rich, but they have another road to national fame and an enduring legacy that inspires walkouts.

Honestly, volunteering in a soup kitchen or staying up overnight with a puking child never inspired any of these jack-whacks to march and those are the types of selfless actions that truly create human (and therefore social) bonds.
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Old March 12, 2018, 12:41 PM   #21
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adamBomb

Actually I am in tune with (ONLY) the system here in Texas...

With a adult daughter and kids (dead beat dad who does NOT have the ability to pay)

I do know it is NOT an ideal or even fair system.... she never needed the food stamp program nor any of the other give away support like Obama Phone... health care qualifying is very hard...she does work and has an income.... wife and I to do the HC support....no regrets doing this except for the HIGH TAXES WE pay ....most supposedly going to the social programs....but that is another rant

We both spent years in several capacities where we interacted a lot with welfare recipients and we live in a county with more than 30% recipients of the 19,000 population....are totally supported.... I do MEAN TOTALLY

Also have many acquaintances who are Police, Parole officers, or Teachers in Dallas, San Antonio, Houston, Austin.... we frequently discuss this topic

I stand by my assertion that SOME of the GENEROUS welfare system is causal to SOME of our current societal dis function

YOU and I have different value systems and WE BOTH argee that living on welfae is sucky and not ideal

Here in Texas we have a social welfare culture that advertises on TV on who to call to get Max benefits... they actually coach people how to GAME the system

When my daughter signed up for WIC program... she was given several instructional seminars on how to get the free cell phone, free business suit for interviews, where to apply for a free auto...St Vincent D Paul, Good will

But disgustingly to wife and I was the advice she got to HIDE her real income so she could QUALIFY for additional benefits

Contrast this to How the VA and SSA go out of their way to MINIMIZE advice to recipients about available programs and qualification......

OK that is a side show rant

Lack of father figure is a high causality
Lack of Fear that Needs can not be met...... Shelter, Food, safety,
Multi generational examples of how a non productive citizen can live realitivley comfortably

I assert that is exceedingly difficult for Parents, Educators, Police to influence a large segment of our population to be productive and contribute

Then there are the generational changes in technology that exasperate the problem with FUN distractions

TV
Games
Social media
Helicopter parenting
Some Rap music
Peer presure
Bullying
Drugs..... adults with double standards.... states allowing recreational drug use

Again I am NOT saying the welfare system we have causes all of our current social ills... BUT I do believe it is a contributor
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Old March 12, 2018, 01:05 PM   #22
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We had the guns in the 1950s and 60s, what we didn't have were the drugs, either illicit of these "medicines".
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